Shuttle Challenge v3 - The 1.1.x STS thread [Stock and Mod Friendly][11.10.2016 - CLOSED FOR REFURBISHMENT]

[mythic_fci]

2 hours ago, Speeding Mullet said:

Wow and wow!  Knowing your previous shuttle as I do, I can definitely see heritage there with the design.  I didn't get what you meant by you can see your house from here, but I presume it's either something to do with an approximation to earth's geography, or possibly just that KSC is visible?  Can't wait to see what else this shuttle is capable of as you progress through the missions, and a massive well done for coming first in the altitude rankings!  Unfortunately @n.b.z. you've been knocked off the leaderboard for the moment

Thanks! Indeed, the Valkyrie is inspired heavily by my previous shuttles. The comment meant the latter - that I could see KSC. Payload integration tests are underway for the comsats as we speak

[Alchemist]

7 hours ago, Speeding Mullet said:

Anyway, another superb video and beautifully run mission.  The Aerocapture at Duna looked tense on the nose cone popping, and the 3.4 km/s aero-capture at Kerbin on the way home was an education in thermal management!  You lost your body flap, but seriously great work!  I wonder if that's on the limit of aero-capturing a shuttle?  For example a high energy transfer from Jool may be a bit of a difficult one.  Even the second pass was verging on explody. Without those radiators not possible I don't think!

Here is your very very well earned badge Commander!  

I was a bit surprised how hot Duna aerocapture was on the nose, given it was just half of Kerbin aerocapture speed, but the AoA was a bit smaller, probably due to payload balancing.

The thing with interplanetary aerocapture is that Duna and Eve transfers (in the best-case scenario, of course) are just a few hundreds m/s over escape velocity, while everything else is like over 1 km/s above that. And with return from Duna it's only somewhere around 200-400 m/s (depending on mass, drag and lift) a spaceplane can shed on the first pass without totally overheating. For aerocapture from other planets it would be both too hot and not enough to capture. And the second pass is still very hot, because it gets rid of most excessive velocity.

As for the radiators - they work as good heat sinks even when the bays are closed and can protect some more sensitive parts (just remember that in current version fixed radiators directly drain heat on from the part they're attached to and whatewer's attached directly to that part)... but on Buran I actually just slapped them on there in the bay when developing the ship (back in 1.0.4) and haven't really touched them since. Maybe slightly changing their configuration would address nose heating a bit better... On the other hand, in HRO couple such radiators were installed specifically to address RTG melting issue.

 

7 hours ago, Speeding Mullet said:

RULING: Tolerance table to be inserted in to the OP as follows, to allow for varying tolerances at higher altitudes.  If people exceed these altitudes and find that extra tolerances are needed then I can add in extra as people go ever higher!

70-1999km - 100m

2000-4999km - 500m

4000-5999km - 1km

6000-8000km - 10km

8000km+ - 50km

Alright then, let me quote myself from a few pages ago

On 27.05.2016 at 5:00 PM, Alchemist said:

Well, I decided to experiment with HRO-M and the payload a bit...

19963 km (although the precision is terribly drifting at that altitude, but it can be temporarily brought down to a few kilometers)

 

P.S. I decided to try STS-2 with HRO. Of course, assembling HRO-M configuration for such mission profile would be a total inefficient overkill, so I went with no boosters... and the extra tanks it needed to reach the desired altitude fit inside...

The only real issue - it has too much lift to land this empty. Pull nose up a bit too high and it gets itself into steep climb and then stalls. That's what you get from airframe developed with about 40 t of payload on landing in mind.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Alchemist

[awfulhumanbeing]

7 hours ago, Speeding Mullet said:

All the missions have to be run sequentially and separately.  You cannot wrap up for example STS 9 and 10 in one mission for example.

I was asking for a single mission. For example, here is the plan:

You get an interplanetary tug to KO, then dock your shuttle to it, and perform the interplanetary mission. I'm sure this isn't really allowed though.

[Speeding Mullet]

33 minutes ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

I was asking for a single mission. For example, here is the plan:

You get an interplanetary tug to KO, then dock your shuttle to it, and perform the interplanetary mission. I'm sure this isn't really allowed though.

Ahha, so I think you are asking that (when you get to the specific mission)  can the allowable support launch be an interplanetary tug.  The answer is yes.  The support mission for STS-10 can boost anything from a single part to a 1000t ultra ship and anything and everything in between.  As long as your shuttle is the thing (and the only thing) that makes it to the runway at the end of the mission then you are absolutely fine with taking along as much as you can fit in one support launch.  All other missions are not allowed support launches (at this stage).

@FCISuperGuy and @Alchemist (and all others, and @awfulhumanbeing if my answer is again not what you were asking) I'll reply tomorrow when I am not so "lubricated" 

 

SM

[michal.don]

Hi there,

Before the next Duna mission is planned, I decided to try to push the limits of my Shuttle with the fuel pod mission. By using two Munar gravity assists, I managed to put the pod to cca 83 000 x 83 000 orbit. The orbit height wasn't very stable this high up, the Pe and Ap markers danced around like crazy and the values vere skipping about 100 kms up and down, so one second I was within the precision limit and the next one I was off by 200 kms. I hope that it's not an issue, because it's not possible to get the orbit more precise (believe me, I tried).

Here's the album from the mission:

As always, I had plenty of fuel to spare, so I could have gone even closer to the SOI border, but the orbit was pretty unstable even at 83 000. But if anybody beats my score, I am willing to go as close as it takes (but it sounds like a completely different kind of challenge).

Since the SpaceY boosters are the only non-stock part Kolumbia uses, I'm thinking about switching them for a cluster of stock boosters and  trying to compete in the stock leaderboard as well, so I want to ask, which of my mods I have to get rid of to be consider stock. Currently, I have these installed:

Chatterer

KAS

KER

KIS

KJR

SpaceY expanded

SpaceY heavy lifters

Take Command

(I think the only one that might be an issue is KJR, what are your thoughts/rules?)

 

Michal.don

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by michal.don

[Speeding Mullet]

19 minutes ago, michal.don said:

(but it sounds like a completely different kind of challenge).

I will reply to the challenge entry when I am a little more ion the level, but let's think about hashing out another challenge for the fuel pod shall we?  Clearly Kerbin's SOI isn't going to be enough to contain the 42t beast?!

Ideas on a postcard please and I will pick up the convo in the morning

 

SM

[mythic_fci]

@michal.don and @Alchemist, sincere congratulations for absolutely decimating my shortly-held record! That's some insane overengineering and physics abuse assistance! *slinks off and cries*

1 hour ago, Speeding Mullet said:

I will reply to the challenge entry when I am a little more ion the level, but let's think about hashing out another challenge for the fuel pod shall we?  Clearly Kerbin's SOI isn't going to be enough to contain the 42t beast?!

Ideas on a postcard please and I will pick up the convo in the morning

Perhaps a new challenge seeing how high we can put the pod in solar orbit?

-FCI

[michal.don]

24 minutes ago, FCISuperGuy said:

Perhaps a new challenge seeing how high we can put the pod in solar orbit?

I think this would evolve into a "who can pull the best gravity assists from Eve/Duna to Joolian gravity assist to a crazily high orbit". Compared to any planetary gravity assist, burning even crazy amount of fuel doesn't help your orbit that much. (And I don't like that because I suck badly at planning planetary gravity assists  ). That said, I don't have any better idea, so I better start practising those

Michal.don

[mythic_fci]

1 hour ago, michal.don said:

I think this would evolve into a "who can pull the best gravity assists from Eve/Duna to Joolian gravity assist to a crazily high orbit".

Is that a bad thing?

[michal.don]

38 minutes ago, FCISuperGuy said:

Is that a bad thing?

As I said, not a bad thing, but a thing I'm bad at

[cantab]

I see the problem that once you can reach solar escape speed, you can circularise at an arbitrarily high orbit, and it just becomes a case of who leaves the game in timewarp for the longest.

[Cipher_077]

@Speeding Mullet

My first mission for the "STS Commander - Rank 1" Badge. Gonna do the others soon. http://imgur.com/a/rErFK

 

Edit: STS Mission 1 - Fuel Pod Thingy is done and I have a new STOCK RECORD!!!!!!!!!! If I took it a little higher it would escape Kerbin's SOI in fact! - Awaiting my "Flight Controller" Badge, here's the album with the record break! http://imgur.com/gallery/90RTh/new

Edited June 12, 2016 by Cipher_077
to add new mission

[Speeding Mullet]

On 6/11/2016 at 6:38 PM, Alchemist said:

19963 km (although the precision is terribly drifting at that altitude, but it can be temporarily brought down to a few kilometers)

Ooops!  Sorry I missed this!  This mission definitely qualifies!  Here are your badges retrospectively.  Leader-board will also be updated   

 

 

On 6/11/2016 at 6:38 PM, Alchemist said:

P.S. I decided to try STS-2 with HRO. Of course, assembling HRO-M configuration for such mission profile would be a total inefficient overkill, so I went with no boosters...

Wowa, that's pretty awesome, didn't realise your shuttle can just do the mission without needing a carrier vehicle!  Having said that in this configuration it doesn't fit in with the shuttle definition for the challenge.  Specifically " It must be lifted into space by a Carrier Vehicle".  I know your shuttle is so capable that it didn't need a carrier vehicle, but I guess for the purposes of the challenge that would qualify as an SSTO rather than a shuttle.  Damned impressive even if I can't award on it!

 

On 6/11/2016 at 8:08 PM, michal.don said:

Hi there,

Before the next Duna mission is planned, I decided to try to push the limits of my Shuttle with the fuel pod mission. By using two Munar gravity assists, I managed to put the pod to cca 83 000 x 83 000 orbit. The orbit height wasn't very stable this high up, the Pe and Ap markers danced around like crazy and the values vere skipping about 100 kms up and down, so one second I was within the precision limit and the next one I was off by 200 kms. I hope that it's not an issue, because it's not possible to get the orbit more precise (believe me, I tried).

Here's the album from the mission:

*Gallery Snip*

As always, I had plenty of fuel to spare, so I could have gone even closer to the SOI border, but the orbit was pretty unstable even at 83 000. But if anybody beats my score, I am willing to go as close as it takes (but it sounds like a completely different kind of challenge).

Since the SpaceY boosters are the only non-stock part Kolumbia uses, I'm thinking about switching them for a cluster of stock boosters and  trying to compete in the stock leaderboard as well, so I want to ask, which of my mods I have to get rid of to be consider stock. Currently, I have these installed:

Chatterer

KAS

KER

KIS

KJR

SpaceY expanded

SpaceY heavy lifters

Take Command

(I think the only one that might be an issue is KJR, what are your thoughts/rules?)

 

Michal.don

 

Unbelievable work and absolutely blowing away the mod category placement.  I'll update the leader-board for you later on .  KJR would keep you in the modded category for sure!

 

On 6/11/2016 at 9:39 PM, FCISuperGuy said:

Perhaps a new challenge seeing how high we can put the pod in solar orbit?

Or how low perhaps??

On 6/12/2016 at 8:48 AM, Cipher_077 said:

@Speeding Mullet

My first mission for the "STS Commander - Rank 1" Badge. Gonna do the others soon. http://imgur.com/a/rErFK

 

Edit: STS Mission 1 - Fuel Pod Thingy is done and I have a new STOCK RECORD!!!!!!!!!! If I took it a little higher it would escape Kerbin's SOI in fact! - Awaiting my "Flight Controller" Badge, here's the album with the record break! http://imgur.com/gallery/90RTh/new

First let me say that this is incredibly impressive!  I really struggled internally with the rule "Boosters may be attached radially on the Carrier Vehicle (no other attachment location is permitted)" but in the end I decided that your shuttle does meet the requirement, as technically although your SRB's are attached to your boosters, the root that they are attached to is the carrier vehicle.  I think you've exploited a loop hole that no one else has (I even reviewed every challenge entry again to confirm this and help with judgement) at this point so it's brave to have thrown yourself open to this ruling (unless you saw it as a clear cut case?)

Good work on the stock record, superb mission reports (highly detailed), and this shuttle is a total beast!  You should be able to easily accommodate the rest of the missions without any (significant) re-designs!  Have a couple of badges   

 

I'll update the leaderboards soon (next time I'm updating the OP) so you will get tagged on the leader-board once I've updated.

Other than that sorry for a patchy weekends adjudicating, it's been quite the couple of days!  I also found some time to work on my new shuttle.  Name and specification unknown at this point, but I believe it can be called large.....

 

SM

[awfulhumanbeing]

STS-2

(finally)

Mods used:

Kerbal Engineer Redux - Orbital data, dV stats

Craft:

Just my STS-1 craft with a different payload.

https://kerbalx.com/awfulhumanbeing/Mario-STS-1

Quitting the shuttle program for now, doing spaceplanes.

Edited June 13, 2016 by awfulhumanbeing

[Cipher_077]

@Speeding Mullet I still don-t get the spin stabilisation thingy in the comsats. Do we  put ghe shuttle in KSO and deploy the sats or we put thr shuttle in a 300km + orbit amd send the comasts from there? I don't get it because if its the former then there is no need for spin stabilization, and if its the latter, we can spin stabilize but it will stop after time warp, after all you have to do two burns for a hohmann tranfer.

[Speeding Mullet]

1 hour ago, Cipher_077 said:

@Speeding Mullet I still don-t get the spin stabilisation thingy in the comsats. Do we  put ghe shuttle in KSO and deploy the sats or we put thr shuttle in a 300km + orbit amd send the comasts from there? I don't get it because if its the former then there is no need for spin stabilization, and if its the latter, we can spin stabilize but it will stop after time warp, after all you have to do two burns for a hohmann tranfer.

Hi there!  Depends what badge you are going for.  If you are going for Pilot then all you have to do is reach 200km+ and deploy the comsats without spin stabilisation.  They have enough Dv to make it to Geo from there.  If you are going for the pilot badge then you must reach 300km+ and use spin stabilisation.  You can go right up to Geo altitude with the shuttle and deploy if you like for either badge (Pilot without spin stabilisation, commander with)!  Regarding the spin stabilisation specifically it's accepted that timewarp will stop the spin.  It's more for the deployment part and because it's cool piece of engineering that it's in there (and it looks awesome when you deploy them with spin stabilisation.

Hope that helps, let me know if any further Q's.

@awfulhumanbeing I will pick up your entry when I am home from work tonight and can see the gallery

 

SM

 

[Speeding Mullet]

18 hours ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

STS-2

(finally)

Mods used:

Kerbal Engineer Redux - Orbital data, dV stats

Craft:

Just my STS-1 craft with a different payload.

https://kerbalx.com/awfulhumanbeing/Mario-STS-1

*Gallery Snip*

Quitting the shuttle program for now, doing spaceplanes.

Something odd clearly happened to the engines on the comsats there ey!?  I seem to remember that happening to me as well the first time I tried them.  Unfortunately you haven't provided proof that you placed the comsats in geostationary orbit so I cannot award you a badge.  Geostationary orbit is ~2863.33 km.

 

Hope to see you back in the challenge in the future.  Feel free to re-enter when you get bored or frustrated with space-planes 

SM

[awfulhumanbeing]

Oh sorry, @Speeding Mullet, didn't read the rules correctly. Also, the engines on the sats were not fueled for some reason. Since I didn't get the mission correctly, I'll redo it. A geostationary orbit is quite hard to accomplish - it's on equator, so I'll have to land on the runway (poles are perfectly flat, a good place to land.) or use KerbinSide and delete EVE (RAM problems). And I only have a polar space station, so no refueling. I'll try!

I don't think I can get more frustrated than with my Sam SSTO (if you wish, find it on kerbalX). To reduce frustration levels, I will do RAPTOR (rocket assisted plane to orbit, a good acronym isn't it?), or X-Planes.

Fun thing - the Shuttle actually is a RAPTOR, and those RAPTORs that I do can be submitted here if I use a Mk1 cargo bay from Vens Stock Revamp.

Edited June 14, 2016 by awfulhumanbeing

[Paranoid Shark]

Having finally got internet in my new house, here is my STS-1 Mission. 

Mods used that affected the design/performance of my shuttle:

Mechjeb

Kerbal Engineer

Better Burn Time

RCS Balancer

Shuttle Lifting Body (Body, Nose, OMS System)

Fuel Tanks Plus (External Tank)

Space Y (SRB's)

Tweakscale (WIngs)

Stage Recovery (SRB Recovery)

RemoteTech (had to add 2x C16 antenna to fuel pod)

Final Fuel pod orbit 199,500m x 199,456m

 

I need to work on positioning and size of the FWD gear, its a little bit too much of an angle!

Edited June 14, 2016 by Paranoid Shark

[awfulhumanbeing]

STS-2 fixed

Stupid quickasves killed my landing.

Mods:

MechJeb2

Craft:

https://kerbalx.com/awfulhumanbeing/Mario-STS-1

 

[Firemetal]

My entry is coming. I had a couple of problems building shuttles previously. These were ascent (obviously) and re-entering. (Stalling )

I thought I had to move the COL right in front of COM but actually I had to move it away from the COM. The problem now is that it can't turn easily because of it's distance from the COM. When I fix that, I will upload an imgur album. Loving the other entries btw.

[CheckYoStaging]

I'm gonna make sure that this craft qualifies as a shuttle before I attempt an actual mission.  Its a bit funky, with two fuselages and the boosters doing double duty as external tanks.  It also turned out to be an SSTO.  It has plenty of cargo space, though, and lands on a runway.

http://i.imgur.com/pO1qc9i.png

http://i.imgur.com/vwJyDGt.png

Edited June 14, 2016 by CheckYoStaging

[Jhawk1099]

@Speeding Mullet Very good job on the challenge. Would it be ok if I made a YouTube mini series on this?

 

[Firemetal]

4 hours ago, CheckYoStaging said:

I'm gonna make sure that this craft qualifies as a shuttle before I attempt an actual mission.  Its a bit funky, with two fuselages and the boosters doing double duty as external tanks.  It also turned out to be an SSTO.  It has plenty of cargo space, though, and lands on a runway.

http://i.imgur.com/pO1qc9i.png

http://i.imgur.com/vwJyDGt.png

That's a weird shuttle. But creative. Nice idea!

[Speeding Mullet]

On 6/15/2016 at 1:10 AM, Paranoid Shark said:

Having finally got internet in my new house, here is my STS-1 Mission. 

Mods used that affected the design/performance of my shuttle:

Mechjeb

Kerbal Engineer

Better Burn Time

RCS Balancer

Shuttle Lifting Body (Body, Nose, OMS System)

Fuel Tanks Plus (External Tank)

Space Y (SRB's)

Tweakscale (WIngs)

Stage Recovery (SRB Recovery)

RemoteTech (had to add 2x C16 antenna to fuel pod)

Final Fuel pod orbit 199,500m x 199,456m

*Gallery Snip*

I need to work on positioning and size of the FWD gear, its a little bit too much of an angle!

Excellent welcome to the Shuttle Challenge!  Clearly this one's for the modded category so without much further ado here arte your first two badges to kick start your shuttle flying career.  Nicely designed shuttle by the way - it's very clearly STS with the modded parts so that's pretty awesome.  Bit too much kick down on the nose as you mentioned, but that's more styling points.  Onwards and upwards for this shuttle I think!  I will update the leaderboards shortly!

Also congrats on the new house, getting internet in the new house.  I don't know which is more challenging haha!

 

On 6/15/2016 at 1:34 AM, awfulhumanbeing said:

STS-2 fixed

Stupid quickasves killed my landing.

Mods:

MechJeb2

Craft:

https://kerbalx.com/awfulhumanbeing/Mario-STS-1

*Gallery Snip*

Haha oh my word!  What happened with the quicksave???  You were at 5000m then suddenly in a pool on the floor, or did it destabilise the shuttle or something?  Technically I can't award you as your shuttle didn't land in one piece, but I'm going to make an exception with this specific case as as a) I'm not that much of a hardass and b) clearly there was some kind of terminal issue that you had, but also c) You have proved that your shuttle can deorbit and land in your previous missions so it's fairly obvious something other than your flying ability went wrong. Here's your badge!!  

 

On 6/15/2016 at 5:58 AM, Firemetal said:

My entry is coming. I had a couple of problems building shuttles previously. These were ascent (obviously) and re-entering. (Stalling )

I thought I had to move the COL right in front of COM but actually I had to move it away from the COM. The problem now is that it can't turn easily because of it's distance from the COM. When I fix that, I will upload an imgur album. Loving the other entries btw.

Cool welcome to the challenge Firemetal!  Yep shuttles are generally speaking pigs to fly!  They require iterative testing and trial and error is really the only way to go about it along with a healthy amount of research!  If in doubt SAS authority the hell out of it, but but it's much more satisfying to get something that has fine balance.  Pro-tip:  A pair of AV-R8 winglets offset into the cockpit can really help with re-entry balance.

Look forward to seeing your design and remember if you have something capable of orbit and return you can go from there, and tweak the shuttle design as you go through the rest of the challenges!  Pro tip 2:  If you can boost the fuel pod to orbit you can complete the other missions without any trouble....

 

On 6/15/2016 at 6:54 AM, CheckYoStaging said:

I'm gonna make sure that this craft qualifies as a shuttle before I attempt an actual mission.  Its a bit funky, with two fuselages and the boosters doing double duty as external tanks.  It also turned out to be an SSTO.  It has plenty of cargo space, though, and lands on a runway.

http://i.imgur.com/pO1qc9i.png

http://i.imgur.com/vwJyDGt.png

Hmmmmm, very very good question.  OK I got this.  The answer is no and for one reason only.  Your shuttle is lifted into space by carrier vehicles rather than a singular carrier vehicle. If you have a look at this shuttle designed by @robertlong13 you will see a very very similar design to yours, but with one critical difference - The shuttle is attached to a single carrier vehicle rather than two separate drop tanks.

Small re-design should see you on your way from here by the looks of it!  Let me know if you have any more questions...

EDIT:  THIS RULING IS NO LONGER VALID.  PLEASE SEE THIS POST FOR MORE INFO, AND THE OP FOR THE MOST RECENT RULES.

 

On 6/15/2016 at 7:09 AM, Jhawk1099 said:

@Speeding Mullet Very good job on the challenge. Would it be ok if I made a YouTube mini series on this?

 

Thanks @Jhawk1099!!  Are you talking about making a YouTube mini series of your challenge entries in video format?  If so then absolutely go ahead, there are a number of others who are producing video entries to the challenge!  If you are talking about something other than just video entries hosted on YouTube then drop me a PM and we can hash it out

 

Thanks all!

SM

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Speeding Mullet