KSP Caveman Challenge 1.2

[IncongruousGoat]

1 minute ago, MoeslyArmlis said:

If a pilot is on board with a relay antenna then a remotely controlled probe should be possible  I have yet to test this.  Be back soon with results.

Nope! You need a relay antenna AND either the 1.25m or 2.5m probe core on your mothership to control a probe from a manned vessel alone. I was planning a mission to Duna a while back that used an unmanned lander controlled by a manned ship in orbit... and ran headlong into this exact problem.

[Moesly_Armlis]

2 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Nope! You need a relay antenna AND either the 1.25m or 2.5m probe core on your mothership to control a probe from a manned vessel alone. I was planning a mission to Duna a while back that used an unmanned lander controlled by a manned ship in orbit... and ran headlong into this exact problem.

This is what i was referring to.

 

Probe Control Point

Needs 2 pilots and is beyond Caveman technology.  

This is the only part that has a Probe Control Point.  Now that makes me want to suggest that the Hitchhiker could serve as another option for Probe Control Point.

Edited November 20, 2016 by MoeslyArmlis

[DD_bwest]

Is there a list of the KSC special biomes for when it has no upgrades? i just wanna make sure i hit them all.

I took a bit of a break, then went back to this yesterday,  my first few launches were nothing special, to grab the easy science from flying, upper atmo, space low n high.  then i built this

and i grabbed all the easy science around the KSC, and up the nearby mountain, as i figred it was easier to get the mountain biome that way.  then i did a bunch of these, to land in all kerbins biomes,  i would grab the EVA for flying when i did each one by jumping off the lander and hitting eva in the air.

i then did some trips to the Mun, ill try to post some of those pictures later.

am i allowed to build a sat' relay network?  i think i need one to get to minmus.  or do i just amass even more commutrons?

 

edit: oh, and i did a bunch of contracts for sat's and testing parts, wasnt a ton of science, but it was a nice addition.  i also set up a strategy to turn reputation into science.

Edited November 25, 2016 by DD_bwest

[IncongruousGoat]

12 hours ago, DD_bwest said:

am i allowed to build a sat' relay network?  i think i need one to get to minmus.  or do i just amass even more commutrons?

Sure! It doesn't involve upgrading facilities, ergo it isn't against the rules.

Although, you don't have to visit Minmus to complete the challenge. It's just much easier to (once you get the relays figured out).

[DD_bwest]

29 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Sure! It doesn't involve upgrading facilities, ergo it isn't against the rules.

Although, you don't have to visit Minmus to complete the challenge. It's just much easier to (once you get the relays figured out).

are you sure about that for  hard?  without landing on the mun, i struggle to think where else to get science withoit going to minmus.  ive got goo cans. mat bays, thermo and bar. from every kerbin biome including the tiny ones around the space  center, and for the 2 in space biome for the mun lol  but if i missed something im all ears lol

[GoSlash27]

21 hours ago, DD_bwest said:

are you sure about that for  hard?  without landing on the mun, i struggle to think where else to get science withoit going to minmus.  ive got goo cans. mat bays, thermo and bar. from every kerbin biome including the tiny ones around the space  center, and for the 2 in space biome for the mun lol  but if i missed something im all ears lol

My run on "normal" required a flyby of the Mun. I'm pretty sure at least one landing on Minmus will be necessary in a "hard" playthrough.

List of Caveman biomes (let me know if I missed any):
 

Spoiler

 

At KSC (surface biomes only):
-KSC
-Runway
-Flag pole
-Admin
-Astronaut Complex
-R&D
-R&D Corner Lab
-SPH
-SPH Main Building
-Tracking Station
-Mission Control
-VAB <-- It is possible to register "flying over".
-VAB Main Building
-Crawlerway
-Launch Pad

Region Biomes:

Shores landed
Shores splashed
Grasslands
Highlands
Mountains
Desert
Badlands
Tundra
Northern Ice Shelf
Southern Ice Shelf
Ice Cap
Water Splashed
Water Landed

Flying low is a unique biome for some experiments, including temperature, crew report, and EVA report (jump).

Global biomes:
-Flying low
-Flying high
-Space Low
-Space high

Easily- attainable biomes in Caveman:
-Space high over the Mun
-Space low over the Mun
-Space high over Minmus
-Space low over Minmus
-Space high over the Sun

 

HTHs,
-Slashy

Edited November 26, 2016 by GoSlash27

[DD_bwest]

1 minute ago, GoSlash27 said:

My run on "normal" required a flyby of the Mun. I'm pretty sure at least one landing on Minmus will be necessary in a "hard" playthrough.

List of Caveman biomes (let me know if I missed any):
 

  Hide contents

 

At KSC (surface biomes only):
-KSC
-Runway
-Flag pole
-Admin
-Astronaut Complex
-R&D
-R&D Corner Lab
-SPH
-SPH Main Building
-Tracking Station
-Mission Control
-VAB
-VAB Main Building
-Crawlerway
-Launch Pad

Region Biomes:

Shores landed
Shores splashed
Grasslands
Highlands
Mountains
Desert
Badlands
Tundra
Polar
South Polar
Water Splashed
Water Landed

Flying low is a unique biome for some experiments, including temperature, crew report, and EVA report (jump).

Global biomes:
-Flying low
-Flying high
-Space Low
-Space high

Easily- attainable biomes in Caveman:
-Space high over the Mun
-Space low over the Mun
-Space high over Minmus
-Space low over Minmus
-Space high over the Sun

 

HTHs,
-Slashy

amazing thanx,   so i still got VAB and SPH to go, as i only have the Main buildings biomes for both of those,  thats like another 30-40 points lol

Im really hoping i can avoid a landing on either, and theorize it should be more then possible with contracts.   at first i was thinking it would be an insane undertaking with a few hundred sat's.  but now that ive done some for cash, im getting 3 star contracts to put them around mun and minmus that yield 6-9science a pop, which is a more time consuming, but also safer method to get that last bit of science.

[GoSlash27]

5 hours ago, DD_bwest said:

amazing thanx,   so i still got VAB and SPH to go, as i only have the Main buildings biomes for both of those,  thats like another 30-40 points lol

Im really hoping i can avoid a landing on either, and theorize it should be more then possible with contracts.   at first i was thinking it would be an insane undertaking with a few hundred sat's.  but now that ive done some for cash, im getting 3 star contracts to put them around mun and minmus that yield 6-9science a pop, which is a more time consuming, but also safer method to get that last bit of science.

DD_bwest,

 Science landings on Mun and Minmus are totally doable with caveman tech, especially if you transmit from the surface. And with the new science containers, it's possible to recover it intact for a huge bonus. Even fairly elaborate science probes are light enough to be well within the capabilities of caveman parts and facilities. Just have to be careful to stay within the max part count.
 Not suggesting that you should alter your plans, just saying that you don't have to avoid it.

Unga bunga,
-Slashy

[DD_bwest]

3 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

DD_bwest,

 Science landings on Mun and Minmus are totally doable with caveman tech, especially if you transmit from the surface. And with the new science containers, it's possible to recover it intact for a huge bonus. Even fairly elaborate science probes are light enough to be well within the capabilities of caveman parts and facilities. Just have to be careful to stay within the max part count.
 Not suggesting that you should alter your plans, just saying that you don't have to avoid it.

Unga bunga,
-Slashy

all true points, I hadnt even thought about transmitting it back, as i just dont do it ever lol  maybe ill make a smaller lander and see how much i get back through transmitting it

[GoSlash27]

14 minutes ago, DD_bwest said:

all true points, I hadnt even thought about transmitting it back, as i just dont do it ever lol  maybe ill make a smaller lander and see how much i get back through transmitting it

DD_bwest,

 Give 'em hell!

-Slashy

[Moesly_Armlis]

9 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

List of Caveman biomes (let me know if I missed any):

There are two new biomes on Kerbin.  The Northern Ice Shelf and the Southern Ice Shelf.  There is also the Kerbin Ice Caps but only in the North (probably a bug in the biome map).

I just visited the South Pole and no sign of the Kerbin's Ice Caps biome just the Southern Ice Shelf.

 

There are also some reports that are tricky to obtain and I only found them by accident.

Temperature scan and crew report while Flying over Kerbin's VAB. 

I was using the a Bow-Sci rover and while moving the temperature scan and crew report were initiated. 

There are also the same reports for the SPH. 

I have tried a parachute fall over the VAB and the report was not obtainable.  Only while moving on the surface will trigger this report.

The "while Flying over Kerbin's VAB" has got me a pondering. Could this indicate that a VAB can be located other than Kerbin?

[GoSlash27]

MoeslyArmlis,

 I corrected the list to include your observations.

Thanks,
-Slashy

[IncongruousGoat]

22 hours ago, DD_bwest said:

are you sure about that for  hard?  without landing on the mun, i struggle to think where else to get science withoit going to minmus.  ive got goo cans. mat bays, thermo and bar. from every kerbin biome including the tiny ones around the space  center, and for the 2 in space biome for the mun lol  but if i missed something im all ears lol

Mostly the trick lies in landing on the Mun and science farming from here till judgement day. Unless memory fails me, I'm pretty sure I managed to put together an unmanned lander that could get goo, temperature, materials bay, and pressure from the surface of the Mun and return it all using the trusty science canister at some point (though I don't know if I still have the save I did it in).

Although, reading the thread, it looks like I'm a little late to the whole landing-on-the-Mun party. When I get back from vacation, I'll see if I can pull off a hard mode submission that doesn't involve going to Minmus, ever. I'm certain it's possible using landers, rovers, and science return (and possibly an assembled mission).

Edited November 26, 2016 by IncongruousGoat

[GoSlash27]

25 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Mostly the trick lies in landing on the Mun and science farming from here till judgement day. Unless memory fails me, I'm pretty sure I managed to put together an unmanned lander that could get goo, temperature, materials bay, and pressure from the surface of the Mun and return it all using the trusty science canister at some point (though I don't know if I still have the save I did it in).

Although, reading the thread, it looks like I'm a little late to the whole landing-on-the-Mun party. When I get back from vacation, I'll see if I can pull off a hard mode submission that doesn't involve going to Minmus, ever. I'm certain it's possible using landers, rovers, and science return (and possibly an assembled mission).

IncongrousGoat,

 I should clarify.

 It should be perfectly achievable without landing on either the Mun or Minmus by simply completing more contracts for science, but that will take a fairly long time.

 Likewise, you *could* land on the Mun instead of Minmus, but that's actually more difficult.

 So if one were to complete Hard mode without grinding contracts for science and without making their lives more difficult than they need to be, I'd expect at least one landing on Minmus.

Best,
-Slashy

[DD_bwest]

i finished it off last night,  once you mentioned just transmitting it, instead of returning it like i had been originaly planning, i realized that i could get a decent amount of science.   since its not a full career, not getting full science points isnt as big a deal.  so some quick trips to minmus for its easy space high/low science,  i made a couple landings with a mat bay, but they kept tipping over cause i was only using the probes reaction wheel lol   then i made an absolute tiny one, with just a goo can and thermo/baro.   I hit 2 biomes with it and finished the tree.

it was a fun challenge, better on hard i think, cause normal was a piece of cake.  I certainly got alot better at flying without nodes.

[GoSlash27]

DD_bwest,

 Congratulations!

3 hours ago, DD_bwest said:

I certainly got alot better at flying without nodes.

That's why we do it; it helps improve our KSP- fu We learn how to design efficiently, mission plan, and pilot without add-ons or aids to do most of the work for us. It's sort of the KSP equivalent of "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball".
 FWIW, normal mode was much more difficult to achieve back when we first started the caveman challenge. It's been nerfed quite a bit since then.

Congrats,
-Slashy

 

 

[HarrySeaward]

http://imgur.com/a/x1NBZ

Wow, that was tough.  I had to do it on 1.1.3 because I was on a trip and only had my old Mac laptop and that's the version it had.  Also, ZERO mods. No Mech Jeb, nothing.

As tiresome as it was, I think it really forced me to refine my skills.

[JAFO]

Congratulations, Harry! 

Looking at all those "landed" and "splashed" reports you did around Kerbin, yeah, it really must have been quite a slog. How much science did you gather from the various sub-biomes around the KSC? There's a lot more science available there, than many people realise.

Congratulations too, on all the Minmus missions. If you can manage it, it's really worthwhile doing one or two manned missions to Minmus. The science gained from a safe return pays off so much better than probe transmissions. (yes, it really can be done, even though the margins are tight)

[HarrySeaward]

I had a couple of manned missions to Minmus.  I felt really bad because, without enough delta-v, I had to leave those brave Kerbals in orbit.  I have had the leave-no-Kerbal-behind mantra since I started and this made me uncomfortable.  Weird, I know.

I can't remember about the sub-biomes around KSC.  I updated the old laptop when I got home and I wiped my saves. BTW, is 1.2 available for OSX? If it is, the MacGameStore seems to be hiding it.

[JAFO]

On 12/31/2016 at 1:08 AM, HarrySeaward said:

I had a couple of manned missions to Minmus.  I felt really bad because, without enough delta-v, I had to leave those brave Kerbals in orbit.  I have had the leave-no-Kerbal-behind mantra since I started and this made me uncomfortable.  Weird, I know.

Orbit? With a little out-of-the box thinking (such as using the engine as a heat-shield), you should be able to land a Kerbal on Minmus, and still return them safely to Kerbin. I've done it several times, using this craft:

(The staging is not quite right in this pic. The LV-T30 Reliant should be in stage 4, along with the pair of RT-5 Fleas.)

 

On 12/31/2016 at 1:08 AM, HarrySeaward said:

BTW, is 1.2 available for OSX? If it is, the MacGameStore seems to be hiding it.

1.2.2 is available for Mac in the KSP store and on Steam.. can't speak for anywhere else.

Edited January 1, 2017 by JAFO

[Mattasmack]

For the 1.2.2 release I decided to revisit this challenge on moderate, but do it in as few launches as possible without using planes or rovers [1].  It took me a while to get around to finishing the challenge, but I got it in four launches!

Launch 1, crewed atmospheric hop:  I used several Flea boosters with some hot-staging (burning off previous stages) to get to the upper atmosphere.  Bob acted as pilot, because his ability to reset goo canisters reduced the number of them I needed to carry.

Launch 2, crewed SSTO:  Science payload consisted of several thermometers and barometers, so that I could return all science rather than transmit, and one goo canister.  Bob piloted again, and I launched from the runway to gather science from that biome as well.

Launch 3, uncrewed Mun orbiter with return: With the first small engine (Terrier) and probe core (Stayputnik) unlocked I was able to get beyond LKO.  Made an orbit around Mun and got science from high above Kerbin and low and high above Mun.  Science payload consisted of a couple of goo canisters, one thermometer and barometer, and the science canister for returning results.  The ability to hibernate the probe core proved essential, as I didn't have solar panels unlocked yet.  Not having SAS or reaction wheels was a novel experience.

Launch 4, uncrewed Minmus lander with return: This one was based on the OKTO core, so I finally got to use SAS!  I landed on six Minmus biomes, getting thermometer and barometer readings from each, plus goo experiments from three of them.

At this point I was able to unlock all of the 90-science and below nodes, with 85 science left over.

I can provide screenshots if anyone's interested, though I think to most regulars on this thread this is old hat and I've already documented an earlier moderate run in 1.2.1.

 

[1]: My purpose in setting myself these rules was to try to avoid the things in KSP that I find tedious: long cruises that I have to babysit craft through without time-warping, and doing more-or-less the same mission over and over.  Disallowing planes and rovers let me avoid long atmospheric flights or drives, and minimizing the number of launches would, I hoped, keep them from being repetitive.  My strategy was not entirely successful, as I found myself reverting and using quick saves fairly heavily to optimize each launch.  So next time around, I'll disallow those too!

[JAFO]

Nice one, @Mattasmack!

47 minutes ago, Mattasmack said:

I can provide screenshots if anyone's interested, though I think to most regulars on this thread this is old hat and I've already documented an earlier moderate run in 1.2.1.

The one thing I always like, is to see the craft people construct for these challenges.. there's often some serious out-of-the-box thinking put into the designs, so if you'd like to post some shots (maybe even interesting detail pics) of your ships, that would be useful.

[Mattasmack]

Well here goes!  Once I got started, it turns out I had a lot I wanted to write about.

Full album of images here (without descriptions currently): Imgur album

Launch 1:

Spoiler

This had lots of stages -- on the bottom level, the outer boosters go one pair at a time, then the center one, then I ignite the center booster on the upper level while the one below it is still burning; that produces enough heat to explode the lower booster and the whole bottom level falls away.  All of those boosters are set to 100% thrust.  Finally, the outer two boosters ignite at lower thrust to get the whole thing above 19km altitude, to get upper atmosphere science.  Each booster has a parachute for aerodynamic purposes.

You don't need this many boosters just to get to the upper atmosphere, but it was important to me to also have those two outer boosters on the upper level, which provided a platform for Bob to stand on and still be able to get back into the capsule.  This was so that he could jump and get the 'flying at Kerbin's shores' EVA report.

Action shot!  This is just before igniting the center booster on the upper level.  Since the non-pilot Bob was flying, the flight was really erratic.  But the craft is aerodynamically stable at all times, so it works.

And here is the rocket after splashing down.  I was able to get Bob to climb up onto the rocket from the tip of the capsule, so he could once again jump and get a flying situation EVA.

Launch 2:

Spoiler

Here's the crewed SSTO.  Fins at the bottom are important to make it aerodynamically stable, since Bob is flying it again.  There are a few sets of thermometers and barometers on the capsule; I opened and pinned their right-click windows before launch so that I could activate them at the right times during launch without distracting from keeping the rocket going the right way.  Not shown: there's also an antenna near the base of the rocket so that I could radio back a crew report from the lower atmosphere.

Here's the capsule.  I should have placed the instruments a bit higher up, especially the goo canister, as they tried to overheat on reentry.  To protect them I ended up entering with the rocket still attached, and didn't stage it until I hit atmosphere dense enough that I couldn't keep it pointed straight engine-first any more.  (Again, done manually because Bob can't use SAS.)

Here's Bob being a daredevil before launch, grabbing runway science and resetting the goo canister.

By sheer luck, the capsule ended up landing on land in a new biome too.

Launch 3:

Spoiler

The fins at the bottom are important for stability, since the Stayputnik has no SAS.  On the second stage I put everything I could in a service bay to avoid drag at the top.  First stage engine is a swivel, second stage is a Terrier.

Here's the top of the rocket with science payload.  Not visible from here, a radial-mount parachute is attached to the underside of the service bay.  I should have used the HG-5 antenna instead (I think I had it unlocked at this point); this one loses communication not very far beyond Mun and that caused me some problems.  I had no solar panels unlocked at this point, so I had to put the probe into hibernation when time-warping and make it through the whole mission on those two batteries.

I forgot to take any screenshots of this rocket in action, unfortunately.

Launch 4:

Spoiler

And here's my fourth launch.  Four stages: a pair of Thuds, then a Terrier, then the last two stages used Sparks.  I got to use an OKTO probe core this time (SAS, finally!) but ended up making a very wobbly, unbalanced, and aerodynamically unstable rocket.  I didn't have struts unlocked for this one, and didn't realize I couldn't use autostruts either until they were unlocked.  Using the Thuds on the first stage let me pack in a little more fuel than a single Swivel would have, and also put a little more drag at the back with that empty trailing attach node on the bottom fuel tank.  A service bay on the final stage would have really helped with drag and stability, but I was really watching every kilogram of mass in that stage.

For this rocket I ended up breaking out the calculator and using the rocket equation on a few different options to see what gave me the most delta-V.  This configuration has somewhere close to 7 km/s in total.

Here's a closeup of the final stage.  The HG-5 antenna looks horribly delicate and off-center there, but it actually is perfectly happy and doesn't contribute any off-center drag as long as its not deployed in the atmosphere!  I mounted the goo canisters low to try to help stabilize the stage when landed on Minmus, but I don't think they really did much.  Just barely visible is a goo canister on the third stage -- the third stage lasted until halfway through my first Minmus landing burn, so that goo canister was used for space-low around Minmus.  I probably could have put it on the final stage to use while landed instead.

And here we are on Minmus.  This stage was off-balance because I had a single radial-mount parachute on the side of the science canister.  You might notice that there isn't a separate return stage or a heat shield here.  The parachute and science canister can both withstand very high temperature, so I decided to try a return without any special protection for them.  I had calculated how much fuel I needed to reserve in this stage for Minmus escape and return, and when I hit that limit I headed back to Kerbin and set a high periapsis of ~45 km.

Of course, the probe core can't withstand high temperatures at all!  It blew up pretty early, and I panicked for a few seconds until I was able to switch to this piece.  Two of the three solar panels also ended up exploding due to heat, but the parachute and science canister survived.  I had activated the parachute before entering the atmosphere with it set to deploy only when safe.  I do wonder if I could have recovered the whole stage if I had started with a very high periapsis, but all I really needed was the science and that was all safely within the canister.  I never even saw heat bars on the parachute or science canister.

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Mattasmack

[JAFO]

@Mattasmack,

Thanks for the fascinating write-up! I don't think there's anything "old-hat" about it.. lots of interesting little details in that lot. Well done.

[Mattasmack]

Aw shucks, thanks!  When the next release comes out I'm finally ready to try the challenge on hard mode.