[0.20] RemoteTech: Relay Network – V 0.5.0.1

[rhoark]

I have this sitting on my Mods collections folder for days now, and whenever I think about installing it, I would think about how tedious it is to deploy satellites, managing their orbits/inclinations, the hardcore-ism it brings, and It makes me hesitate. Even if I like realism, I still can't convince myself to use this mod.

The appeal of the mod is in giving you more mission objectives with practical implications. If that's not what you want, then you don't want it.

[lyndonguitar]

I am totally playing RemoteTech now

one last question this tutorial still applies to the current version right?

Looks like I lied. Another question.

Remote Control and Remote Command are basically just the same except for the fact that Have a remote command removes the delay required to travel from the KSC to the vessel(provided that you have 3 man)

It looks like this.

KSC(1min) -> RemoteControl(1min) -> RemoteControl(1min) -> RemoteControl(1min) = delay total 4 mins.

BUT if you put RemoteCommand on the middle

KSC(1min) -> RemoteControl(1min) -> RemoteCommand(1min) -> RemoteControl(1min) = delay total 2 mins.

Did I get it right?

[tek_604]

I'm now starting to get used to the hardcore-ism this mod brings. Sure, its a pain, but, as I use MJ for everything (I'm no pilot, don't wanna be either), it makes things a little more interesting.

The flight computer took some getting used to I must admit. But, last night, once I got used to it, I managed to get 15 ComSats up in 500km orbit in about 1 1/2 hours.

I would still prefer that RT would accept MJ as controlling, even when out of LOS. MJ should be only available during LOS, but once a manoeuvre is planned, it should continue after. But that's the only thing I would change.

OK, time to go off and put more sats up, KSO this time. hmm, maybe after boosting some of those 500km sats up to 1000km and see what happens.

Oh! While I'm here, got a question. Currently, my comsats have an antenna, and a dish. This allows me to keep contact with KSC. But... If I launch to the Mun (or other bodies), do I need to point the dishes that way? And is one dish enough, with an antenna?

[lyndonguitar]

I'm now starting to get used to the hardcore-ism this mod brings. Sure, its a pain, but, as I use MJ for everything (I'm no pilot, don't wanna be either), it makes things a little more interesting.

The flight computer took some getting used to I must admit. But, last night, once I got used to it, I managed to get 15 ComSats up in 500km orbit in about 1 1/2 hours.

I would still prefer that RT would accept MJ as controlling, even when out of LOS. MJ should be only available during LOS, but once a manoeuvre is planned, it should continue after. But that's the only thing I would change.

How does it affect Mechjeb? sorry IF I have lots of questions

[entaran]

RT turns off all inputs if the vehicle is unmanned and it has no direct commslink to KSC or any vehicle with a remote command module (and some crew). So you can in essence make a "remote" KSC around Jool or similar by placing a manned orbiter (station, etc) with a remote command module on it and having that be the "base" that all the probes relay back to.

To answer the question from tek_604, you have to get creative with your sat dish allocations. Basically you need one or two highly elliptical satellites around Kerbin (upto 9000km or whatever the base dipole antennas range is) and on those satellites you put dishes, you then point those dishes at your Jool base station to use the example above and have a dish on the Jool station pointing back AT THE SATELLITE WITH THE DISH. if you point "at Kerbin" it doesn't work, it must be specifically targetted at the ship targetting it. Thus you must make pairs.

My relay network consists of a lot of satellites with 4 dishes each (not unrealistic for actual satellites) and those 4 dishes point at 4 other satellites making an awfully complicated relay network that practically never fails. They use dipole antenna's to make the final link back to a command ship (either KSC or an orbital station). The dishes all point at other orbital probes/stations/ships. The "long" links, between say Eeloo and Duna etc are done with the 9000 sats from manned vessel to another manned vessel, so whilst links may break between the planets when the half geostationary orbits are blocked, they act as base stations themselves for probes in that vicinity.

Also the maximum range for anything other than a satdish 9000 is 50Gm, which is at a stretch, the distance from Kerbin to Dres. it will not reach Jool except when Kerbin is on the same side as Jool in an orbit (so about 90 days worth or so at a stretch) then like 2 years of no contact.

[tek_604]

How does it affect Mechjeb? sorry IF I have lots of questions

If you have a connection to KSC, you can command new nodes with MJ. But... If the new node is out of connection, MJ will not perform it, even though it was planned with MJ. In order to plan using MJ, for nodes without LOS, you need to... (method I used last night, so I'm doing this from memory):

1) Plan node with MJ, and bring up RT's Flight Computer

2) Press the "Control with MJ" button, to turn it off

3) Press Maneuver button in the Flight Computer - this will make sure the FC points at the node generated by MJ

4) MAKE SURE THROTTLE IS SET TO 100%!!!

5) Enter the required delta V from the node that was created (you will need to press burn time to change it to m/s required)

6) Enter the delay to the node (deduct a few seconds. I usually round to the nearest minute)

7) Press SEND when the delay is equal to the node activation time

*phew* The burn should now happen as MJ intended.

If anyone knows better than this, feel free to tell me!

[lyndonguitar]

This is better than I expected! Yeah the only problem is the mechjeb disabling. mechjeb should be able to continue moving because after all its pre-planned and automated. Other than that this is really awesome, I didn't imagine it was this fun

Edited May 28, 2013 by lyndonguitar

[EnDSchultz]

I really like the concept of this mod, but to be honest, I'm really having a lot of trouble using it. The one major thing I'd like to see changed is to still be able to select a dish target even when out of contact. I understand the realism rationale behind it, but from a gameplay standpoint it really doesn't work for me. In simply trying to get a single probe to Duna I've had to go through countless cycles of launches, quicksaves and quickloads because of "OOPS! You just targeted a relay that's out of range and can't connect you. You have now lost your spacecraft."

It just becomes tedious and frustrating after a while. Maybe I'm just not doing it right.

[Read have Read]

I really like the concept of this mod, but to be honest, I'm really having a lot of trouble using it. The one major thing I'd like to see changed is to still be able to select a dish target even when out of contact. I understand the realism rationale behind it, but from a gameplay standpoint it really doesn't work for me. In simply trying to get a single probe to Duna I've had to go through countless cycles of launches, quicksaves and quickloads because of "OOPS! You just targeted a relay that's out of range and can't connect you. You have now lost your spacecraft."

It just becomes tedious and frustrating after a while. Maybe I'm just not doing it right.

Just target Kerbin

Edit: wait, last pages says that does not work, yet I recall JDP sayin that it does a while ago...and says so in the OP.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Read have Read

[Camacha]

So, are the RemoteControl and Remote Guidance Units essentially doing the same?

I must say, I am not too sure about the new dishes, especially the new MacroDish sr. Just like the probe parts and the deployable antenna they seem to deviate further and further from the stock look. I prefer the look of the old Communotrons that appear to be useless now, though the MiniDish does not seem too bad.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Camacha

[lyndonguitar]

So, are the RemoteControl and Remote Guidance Units essentially doing the same?

I must say, I am not too sure about the new dishes, especially the new MacroDish sr. Just like the probe parts and the deployable antenna they seem to deviate further and further from the stock look. I prefer the look of the old Communotrons that appear to be useless now, though the MiniDish does not seem too bad.

You meant remote control and command?

The only difference about them is command can be used to directly control nearby ships instead of the actual mission control. thus reducing some delay, other than that I think they're the same

[JDP]

So, are the RemoteControl and Remote Guidance Units essentially doing the same?

I must say, I am not too sure about the new dishes, especially the new MacroDish sr. Just like the probe parts and the deployable antenna they seem to deviate further and further from the stock look. I prefer the look of the old Communotrons that appear to be useless now, though the MiniDish does not seem too bad.

I made the MiniDish myself and did go for a stock look in the textures. Since starting work on RemoteTech I've learned a lot about 3d modeling, but I'm afraid I'll never become a texture artist.

The MacroDish was made by Spaceghöst and wasn't really made to be stock looking, but more following the same high-tech style as the deployable antenna also made by Spaceghöst.

The stock antennae are by far not useless. You will have to install the probe compatibility pack for them to work with RemoteTech though.

I really like the concept of this mod, but to be honest, I'm really having a lot of trouble using it. The one major thing I'd like to see changed is to still be able to select a dish target even when out of contact. I understand the realism rationale behind it, but from a gameplay standpoint it really doesn't work for me. In simply trying to get a single probe to Duna I've had to go through countless cycles of launches, quicksaves and quickloads because of "OOPS! You just targeted a relay that's out of range and can't connect you. You have now lost your spacecraft."

It just becomes tedious and frustrating after a while. Maybe I'm just not doing it right.

True, doing RemoteTech missions - especially interplanetary missions - require a lot of foresight and planning, that's actually part of why I made the mod in the first place.

I wont be enabling any kind of control in out-of-contact vessels since anything else would essentially be a cheat in the context of RemoteTech gameplay mechanics. Of course I have built some actual cheats into RemoteTech. If you enable infinite EVA fuel in the cheat menu you'll have a guaranteed signal connection, even if you're out of range, don't have line-of-sight, or even don't actually have any antennae on your ship.

When doing an interplanetary mission I normally set my interplanetary relay satellites orbiting Kerbin to all have a dish pointed straight at my interplanetary ship/probe. While in short-range contact with my probe, I then set one of its long-range dishes up to point straight back at Kerbin. The probe will normally loose contact once it gets past the orbit of the Mün, but will regain contact once it enters interplanetary space. Since the escape burn is done while close to Kerbin it doesn't matter that there will be a couple of hours without contact.

To properly do interplanetary missions it's key to understand the targeting mechanics: when targeting a planet, you are in essence trying to target any satellite in orbit around that planet. This kind of targeting will only work if you are orbiting a different body than the one you are targeting.

When targeting a ship/satellite you are targeting only that one satellite, but it doesn't matter which planet it orbits, so all dishes targeting your probe will keep targeting it and maintain a connection no matter which planet/moon/star it orbits.

[DreidenKisada]

Any chance of you making a verticle version of the megastrut? Trying to build it to launch without symetry is a killer.

[Frederf]

Make sure the stock parts have completely original config files and follow the installation guide on the spaceport page.

It has something to do with module manager. I'm trying to figure out how it works. I might have some earlier version that didn't have the global dll

[Camacha]

You meant remote control and command?

No, I mean the new stock command pods (in the shape of rings) and the RT parts. I think they do the same thing; provide a command pod in the shape of an inline rocket part. In both cases you'd still need an antenna.

I made the MiniDish myself and did go for a stock look in the textures.

[...]

The stock antennae are by far not useless. You will have to install the probe compatibility pack for them to work with RemoteTech though.

Let's just say I like the look of your work a lot more And the mod itself of course, that is really adding a lot of frustration and joy to the game. The other models are really not bad, but I feel they are more at home in another, possibly more futuristic game.

I think I installed the compatibility pack, though I am using the mod manager. I might have to fiddle around getting to get everything working properly.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Camacha

[hubbazoot]

If you put an SPU on a ship with wheels

SPU? Where is this? What tab?

Edit: Found it. you click where it says "attitude."

Edited May 29, 2013 by hubbazoot

[Subcidal]

@Camacha To each his own, I'm dieing because nobodys made a fancy satellite that folds out so you don't have to spend 30 minutes making a design that covers up the satellite dishes so they don't look so goofy during takeoff.

Just saying this so OP knows the both styles are appreciated. And because I have a little hope that somebody good at modeling/animation will see this and fulfill my long desired dream of a fold out satellite dish (Or even 2 or 3 at different sizes because you know, If you're gonna do it, go all in =P)

[Camacha]

@Camacha To each his own, I'm dieing because nobodys made a fancy satellite that folds out so you don't have to spend 30 minutes making a design that covers up the satellite dishes so they don't look so goofy during takeoff.

Just saying this so OP knows the both styles are appreciated. And because I have a little hope that somebody good at modeling/animation will see this and fulfill my long desired dream of a fold out satellite dish (Or even 2 or 3 at different sizes because you know, If you're gonna do it, go all in =P)

Aren't there a couple of folding dishes included in RemoteTech? Like the small Communotron and the very large SatDish 9000? Combined with Damned Robotics one can build quite some crazy folding satellites and rockets. Slap on some nose cones from Fairing Factory and you got some quite 'realistic' stuff going into orbit.

[tek_604]

True, doing RemoteTech missions - especially interplanetary missions - require a lot of foresight and planning, that's actually part of why I made the mod in the first place.

I wont be enabling any kind of control in out-of-contact vessels since anything else would essentially be a cheat in the context of RemoteTech gameplay mechanics.

I agree with your first statement about requiring forsight and planning. But, I'd like to be clear on the second point. As I've stated in previous posts, I use MJ for piloting. To me, this is no different than uploading a sequence to a spacecraft, even if I didn't personally work out the maths myself (which, as far as I can tell, we can't, as we have no real idea on the positions of bodies at given times, or even able to plan missions to the second, as is the case in real life).

So, if MJ "uploads its sequence" to the spacecraft during comms, and then we lose contact, there is no real reason/explanation as to why MJ should then not be able to carry out the planned burn sequence. Its just that when out of comms, we should not be allowed to plan any more sequences, or at least, not upload them to the spacecraft.

OK, I do understand that as the two mods stand, its either impossible, or at best, very difficult to implement. These thoughts are from a gameplay/realism point of view, not coding. Now, from a coding perspective...

What I think needs to be done, is an interface be developed as a way to have the two mods play nicely. My first thought would be to take the code from both mods, and have a combined mod - "RemoteTech MechJeb" - this seems like a perfectly reasonable and doable solution. Second thought is to agree an interface which allows RemoteTech to send commands to MJ (disable/enable node creation - which we kind of have now, with the disable MJ button, and the mechanics of loss of comms), or MJ to send commands to the RT Flight Computer (which we don't currently have). I have no idea if this kind of inter-plugin communication is possible though.

If this ever got implemented, it would be the closest thing to having a real life simulation, while still being playable. I would be more than willing to help, as I am a code monkey by trade.

Edit: Just remembered my third idea for RT/MJ. Allow RT to load the Flight Computer with data from a planned maneuver node. Don't know if its possible though.

Edited May 29, 2013 by tek_604
Just remembered something I wanted to say!

[Camacha]

as I am a code monkey by trade.

Go monkey, go!

[Castun]

Aren't there a couple of folding dishes included in RemoteTech? Like the small Communotron and the very large SatDish 9000? Combined with Damned Robotics one can build quite some crazy folding satellites and rockets. Slap on some nose cones from Fairing Factory and you got some quite 'realistic' stuff going into orbit.

Yes, I had a nice satellite that started out folded up quite nicely inside a payload capsule, and it would deploy and unfold with 1 hotkey combo. But then 0.20 broke DR.

[Frostiken]

When doing an interplanetary mission I normally set my interplanetary relay satellites orbiting Kerbin to all have a dish pointed straight at my interplanetary ship/probe. While in short-range contact with my probe, I then set one of its long-range dishes up to point straight back at Kerbin. The probe will normally loose contact once it gets past the orbit of the Mün, but will regain contact once it enters interplanetary space. Since the escape burn is done while close to Kerbin it doesn't matter that there will be a couple of hours without contact.

To properly do interplanetary missions it's key to understand the targeting mechanics: when targeting a planet, you are in essence trying to target any satellite in orbit around that planet. This kind of targeting will only work if you are orbiting a different body than the one you are targeting.

When targeting a ship/satellite you are targeting only that one satellite, but it doesn't matter which planet it orbits, so all dishes targeting your probe will keep targeting it and maintain a connection no matter which planet/moon/star it orbits.

The confusion might be because there's actually nothing (that I can see) explaining how to use this mod or what the features do, ie: the targeting of a planet vs. an individual craft. It's really just a trial and error idea since there's no direction, that, or it's just people that have been using it from its earliest version, back when you could point dishes at your own antennas to boost range.

[Senshi]

I already stated my love for this mod earlier, but want to pitch in again (forum crash, yay ).

I agree with tek's notion that it would be awesome if you could commit time-delayed commands to the vessel while connected, and still having them being executed even if connection is lost. This is something that really every probe computer should be able to deal with (storing a command executing it time-based) and I found it the only nuisance with RemoteTech, as this forms an additional obstacle that I just don't think to be realistic and also hinders gameplay a bit, I think. With the ability to execute timed commands the "necessary planning ahead" would be much more accentuated, increasing the possiblities for the mission planner role drastically. A well-timed and calculated command to e.g. circularize an orbit on the "dark side" of a planetary body would be a basic and totally realistically feasible example. Currently you have to make sure to either put your intercept before/behind the planet's body so you have a connection.

On an unrelated note: It would be absolutely cool if you could add the changelog to the first post, as having to dig through the thread for the latest changes is time-consuming.

[JDP]

The confusion might be because there's actually nothing (that I can see) explaining how to use this mod or what the features do, ie: the targeting of a planet vs. an individual craft. It's really just a trial and error idea since there's no direction, that, or it's just people that have been using it from its earliest version, back when you could point dishes at your own antennae to boost range.

There actually already is a lengthy intro on the basic mechanics in the OP (the "Which parts are needed for what" section). There is also a pretty good RemoteTech tutorial on the wiki now if you prefer to read in a wiki format.

And you can still point a dish at a ship carrying only an omni antenna to give a X2 range boost to the omni, that has never been removed since it was added a bit of a while back.

It's true that the more complex features (especially in the flight computer) does require you to learn through experience (or reading through the changelogs).

I'll see what I can do about a small youtube series walking through the entire plugin by doing a couple of missions. It will probably be some time before I'll have time to make such videos.

..I agree with tek's notion that it would be awesome if you could commit time-delayed commands to the vessel while connected, and still having them being executed even if connection is lost. This is something that really every probe computer should be able to deal with (storing a command executing it time-based) and I found it the only nuisance with RemoteTech, as this forms an additional obstacle that I just don't think to be realistic and also hinders gameplay a bit, I think. With the ability to execute timed commands the "necessary planning ahead" would be much more accentuated, increasing the possiblities for the mission planner role drastically. A well-timed and calculated command to e.g. circularize an orbit on the "dark side" of a planetary body would be a basic and totally realistically feasible example. Currently you have to make sure to either put your intercept before/behind the planet's body so you have a connection.

The flight computer already does this and has for the throttle computer since version 0.4.0.4. The attitude computer got the same functionality in the latest release.

In case of the throttle computer you can write in a custom delay time in the countdown field once you've written a m/s or Dv number.

In case of the attitude computer, you can also fill in the countdown field with your own custom delay, you just need to do it before you press the button to activate the attitude mode.

The format is dd:hh:mm:ss in the sense that if you just write 11:00 it will activate in 11 minutes, 0 seconds, 11:00:00 gives you 11 days 0 hours 0 minutes, and so on.

Whenever the countdown reaches zero the computer will start to act on the input even if the ship is out of contact. The only requirement is that the SPU has power to run the flight computer.

Sadly it's not all that possible for me to ensure the same kind of command delays in MechJeb since doing so would require a rewrite of key parts of MechJeb. It's surely possible to do. Other mods can fetch RemoteTech data (like signal delay and so forth) very easily. In fact Chatterer has recently been updated to make use of the RemoteTech interface. But making other mods RemoteTech compatible can't be my decision or job. Especially in case of MechJeb I doubt if I'd even be able to do it myself.

On an unrelated note: It would be absolutely cool if you could add the changelog to the first post, as having to dig through the thread for the latest changes is time-consuming.

The changelog is 5 pages long and would be incredibly messy to put in the OP. Not to mention the OP would be way longer than the set maximum on the forum.

I've included the changelog in the download itself. It's in the readme file.

[Senshi]

Oh, then it's either been a long time since I last tested the flight computer or I used it wrong, because back then the pre-given commands didnt work for me when there was no contact. Glad to know it was just a messup on my end , didn't bother to try it again after that messy experience. Feel kind of stupid now, sorry for the bother.

I don't really care that much about the MJ compatibility, actually. While that certainly would be a nice-to-have, I absolutely agree with you, that certainly is not your responsibility to do (would be fairly insane if you took that upon yourself...). Anyway, it's easy enough to work around that by just using the usual auto-planned maneuvers and then just transfer those node params into the flight computer.

Regarding the changelog: Maybe just put up the recent one (or two?) updates? This would allow us to see if vital stuff changed or new cool stuff was implemented without the download. But yeah, I see your point regarding cluttering.

Thanks again for the many days of work you have put into this project. Together with MJ and Ferram it's one of the absolute "Must-have" mods.