[0.20] RemoteTech: Relay Network – V 0.5.0.1

[cardajowol]

Do either of your satellites have line-of-sight comms to either a manned remote command pod (require a minimum of three kerbals to run) or the KSC?

"I've got 2 satellites in geosynchronous orbit one over kerbin space centre"

See above

[elkar]

So just to be clear, 0.5.1 version is not working with current .21.1 game, and RT 2.0 is for testing so full of bugs, so there is no option to play safely with RT now?

[HavinAlmassi]

So just to be clear, 0.5.1 version is not working with current .21.1 game, and RT 2.0 is for testing so full of bugs, so there is no option to play safely with RT now?

.20.2 is still available on the KSP website and is fully compatible with RT 0.5.1

[sidfu]

So just to be clear, 0.5.1 version is not working with current .21.1 game, and RT 2.0 is for testing so full of bugs, so there is no option to play safely with RT now?

.5.1 works fine the only thing is that if u put a rt module control on your ship it disables the new sas

[xZise]

So just to be clear, 0.5.1 version is not working with current .21.1 game, and RT 2.0 is for testing so full of bugs, so there is no option to play safely with RT now?

Remember: Even when you get a 0.0.5.1 version to work on your 0.21.1 install it won't work with 2.0 as 2.0 breaks compatibility.

Fabian

[rkman]

Isn't the antenna / transmitter separation already present with you needing a Command Pod (transmitter) and an antenna?

As far as i know the RT signal processors only contain communications logic, they do not have transmitter output power. And the antennas do not have gain, range in RT is simply a property of the antennas. In reality antennas have gain and the effective range of a comms link is the result of antenna gain on both ends of the comm link and the output power of the weakest transmitter (assuming receiver sensitivity is the same on both ends).

If not how would this work in the context of KSP?

We'd have to mix and match transmitter power (and corresponding power supply) and antenna gain (where size is the main consideration) to be able to cover the required communications range. We'd be able to create antenna arrays to increase antenna gain to cover greater distance (does not work for dish antennas but it does for certain other types).

Combined with inverse square law (to get double the range requires 4 times output power or an antenna that's 4 times as large - or some compromise between those) RT would be more realistic, harder, more elaborate.

[Apfelmus]

I've had the same problem.. but I've never installed RT0.5.1 before..

Even after a completele untouched vanilla and the only mod being RT2 it had the same issue: satellite dishes & Antennas deploy automatically and I can't interact.

Is this a bug I'll have to live with or does it work for you guys?

edit: btw I'm using 0.21.1

Edited August 2, 2013 by Apfelmus

[Diche Bach]

I had one thought about this mod that I wanted to express: In RL, much ground to space communication is handled by ground-based relays isn't it? What made me think of this was trying to finish some of the first missions in the NT Space Program mission pack for Mission Controller. Without any relay satellites up, you will temporarily lose contact with your early probes as they orbit away from KSC.

While obviously the point of the mod is to provide a framework for developing neat space-based comm relay systems (which is fantastic) I'm just wondering if some degree of land-based relays might be worth considering?

We don't really know anything specific about Kerbal global politics (e.g., is it a one-world nation, or are there ideological superpower struggles between Kermicans and Kerbiets?) as far as I know. But in any event, unless Kerbin some very strange feudally divided fiefdoms, it would seem reasonable that the Kerbals who control KSC should be able to get permiso to erect some ground relays at other points on the equator to allow comms with some vehicles in space in the Kerbin vicinity?

[xZise]

I had one thought about this mod that I wanted to express: In RL, much ground to space communication is handled by ground-based relays isn't it? What made me think of this was trying to finish some of the first missions in the NT Space Program mission pack for Mission Controller. Without any relay satellites up, you will temporarily lose contact with your early probes as they orbit away from KSC.

While obviously the point of the mod is to provide a framework for developing neat space-based comm relay systems (which is fantastic) I'm just wondering if some degree of land-based relays might be worth considering?

We don't really know anything specific about Kerbal global politics (e.g., is it a one-world nation, or are there ideological superpower struggles between Kermicans and Kerbiets?) as far as I know. But in any event, unless Kerbin some very strange feudally divided fiefdoms, it would seem reasonable that the Kerbals who control KSC should be able to get permiso to erect some ground relays at other points on the equator to allow comms with some vehicles in space in the Kerbin vicinity?

Maybe the other antenna at the KSC to the west might be rented (via the Mission Controller) to get additional coverage?

Fabian

[JDP]

Hi JDP,

Any chance that this new version will have an implementation of separation of transmitter- and antennae functionality, and inverse square law range calculation based on transmitter power and antenna gain (as we discussed way back when you started remotetech)?

I'm still brewing on the idea of rkman mode. Up until now I've never been able to add it, since it makes the game positively unplayable from a UI standpoint. With the addition of more detailed relay rendering, where all possible connections can be shown, and coloured to reflect signal strength, it might be possible to enable the mode without it being impossible to keep track of effective ranges in-game.

It's probably not going to happen in the initial release though. Our focus right now is getting the default mode working and adding GUI and flightcomputer features.

Cilph is hard at work at an aerial flight computer, to better control AeroProbes and I'm currently in charge of the rover computer.

In the currently available build it's got the same features as the old RT1 rover computer, but I'm working at adding 2 more modes: "keep heading" and "drive to location". I've got the frontend mostly done, complete with a point-and-click interface for selecting target coordinates simply by clicking on the intended target in either flight- or mapview.

It's going to be pretty neat .

Without any relay satellites up, you will temporarily lose contact with your early probes as they orbit away from KSC... land-based relays might be worth considering?

land-based relays are very time consuming to do. It has been done though, but due to the curvature of Kerbing, you'll have to set up relay stations every few km.

I'm not likely to ever add any hardcoded relay stations, since I'd want the entire relay network to be an achievement.

[Toyotawolf]

I'm still brewing on the idea of rkman mode. Up until now I've never been able to add it, since it makes the game positively unplayable from a UI standpoint. With the addition of more detailed relay rendering, where all possible connections can be shown, and coloured to reflect signal strength, it might be possible to enable the mode without it being impossible to keep track of effective ranges in-game.

It's probably not going to happen in the initial release though. Our focus right now is getting the default mode working and adding GUI and flightcomputer features.

Cilph is hard at work at an aerial flight computer, to better control AeroProbes and I'm currently in charge of the rover computer.

In the currently available build it's got the same features as the old RT1 rover computer, but I'm working at adding 2 more modes: "keep heading" and "drive to location". I've got the frontend mostly done, complete with a point-and-click interface for selecting target coordinates simply by clicking on the intended target in either flight- or mapview.

It's going to be pretty neat .

land-based relays are very time consuming to do. It has been done though, but due to the curvature of Kerbing, you'll have to set up relay stations every few km.

I'm not likely to ever add any hardcoded relay stations, since I'd want the entire relay network to be an achievement.

Sounds awesome JDP, can't wait to see what you guys come up with. Do you mind if i ask if MechJeb will still have a place for integration with RT2 or is that out of scope?

[cxg2827]

I'm working at adding 2 more modes: "keep heading" and "drive to location". I've got the frontend mostly done, complete with a point-and-click interface for selecting target coordinates simply by clicking on the intended target in either flight- or mapview.

It's going to be pretty neat .

Sounds cool! Will the "Drive to Location" continue to work after you switch away from the craft?

[Diche Bach]

land-based relays are very time consuming to do. It has been done though, but due to the curvature of Kerbing, you'll have to set up relay stations every few km.

I'm not likely to ever add any hardcoded relay stations, since I'd want the entire relay network to be an achievement.

Ah that makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought about the fact Kerbin is ten times smaller smaller than Earth! I guess it might take about as many land-based relays to ring Kerbin as it would take to ring the Earth!? As such land-based relays are realistically not as viable I guess. And yeah, I totally understand your interest in keeping it focused on the space-based comms network! Just a thought

Thanks again for a fantastic mod that adds a great deal to the game! I hope that some of your work will find its way into the final design of the game because it really is great stuff.

[CAPFlyer]

All my RT networks have pretty much replicated the real world TDRSS and DSN networks.

I start by launching the first TDRSS satellite (usually pretty small to replicate an early relay satellite that I can launch using a Falcon 1 or similar light rocket that has 2 medium folding dishes and 1 small dish or VHF/omni antenna) and getting it into an orbit about 45* EAST of KSC to give me downrange coverage.

Then I launch the first DSN "station". This is usually a bigger, heavier, setup where I have 4-5 large dishes (I don't think I've ever managed to put 3 identical DSN's together as I always think of something between launches or a new mod comes out...) and an antenna or two and launch it suborbital. I use a *LOT* of parachutes and target it's landing to be about 120* east of KSC. I then make sure that I'm still under TDRSS A's coverage for most of the flight so I can tweak the final landing, but I also have the parachutes modded to auto-deploy at 10KM on the way back in in case I loose connection.

Next, I tweak TDRSS A's orbit so that I can communicate with both KSC and the new DSN station.

Next, I launch the second TDRSS satellite and deploy it to be about 50-55* EAST of DSN B (DSN A is KSC). I usually run the TDRSS A configuration on this satellite too. I always try to ensure that TDRSS B can "see" both DSN B and TDRSS A with its omni antenna so that I have redundant connections.

Next, I launch the second DSN and position it to be 120* WEST of KSC. This gives me 100% hemispherical coverage outside the Kerbin orbit. By deploying TDRSS B to a point almost over the horizon from DSN B, I get full connection to landing again. DSN C will then allow me to ensure coverage when I launch TDRSS C to a point between it and KSC.

Once the 5 stations are in place, I tweak the location of the TDRSS satellites so that they are as close to in synch with each other as possible (MechJeb gives a couple of readouts that I use where I can get them to have relative velocities that allow the network to stay in position for several years before needing to make any tweaks)

This gives me full coverage of all launches and most trips to the Mun and Moho from just the TDRSS network, and then the DSN with their big dishes gives me full coverage beyond that. I can continuously handle 4 long-range flights with this setup and "comm share" several more, especially once I put manned flights up that can serve to "supplement" the relay network. I also sometimes deploy a "DSN A" at KSC that is rover based so that I can quickly re-aim my DSN and TDRSS dishes when launching a new flight or when getting ready to make a navigation change on a long distance one.

[Kimberly]

In the currently available build it's got the same features as the old RT1 rover computer, but I'm working at adding 2 more modes: "keep heading" and "drive to location". I've got the frontend mostly done, complete with a point-and-click interface for selecting target coordinates simply by clicking on the intended target in either flight- or mapview.

It's going to be pretty neat .

That sounds awesome! I'm a very needy person, though. Would it be too much to hope for optional Figaro integration, so that you can only "drive to location" if you have a GPS network or a bunch of pseudolites in place? This exactly the problem they face in the real world, where they have to keep the rover on a course and then have a human make adjustments, time delay and all.

[boberts314]

In the currently available build it's got the same features as the old RT1 rover computer, but I'm working at adding 2 more modes: "keep heading" and "drive to location". I've got the frontend mostly done, complete with a point-and-click interface for selecting target coordinates simply by clicking on the intended target in either flight- or mapview.

Nice! Once that works out I'll have a way to replace Rovermate. I hadn't seen anything that replicated those functions, and I don't think RM is getting anymore updates. :|

[Diche Bach]

All my RT networks have pretty much replicated the real world TDRSS and DSN networks. . . . .

Ahhh, very cool stuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDRSS

Thanks for a pointer into yet more info!

[Apfelmus]

I've had the same problem.. but I've never installed RT0.5.1 before..

Even after a completele untouched vanilla and the only mod being RT2 it had the same issue: satellite dishes & Antennas deploy automatically and I can't interact.

Is this a bug I'll have to live with or does it work for you guys?

edit: btw I'm using 0.21.1

in case anybody else has this problem: It was my Anti-Virus program.. GameData\ModuleManager.dll was blocked.. just set as trusted file

[betaking]

if you wanted to do anything involving programming/scripting actions, I would advise something that would mimic python, both the IDLE and the basic language itself..

Python is simple enough for most people to understand, and the idle is nice because it can function like a command line.

[jrandom]

I think a simple assembly with primitive "processors" is both more Kerbal, and easier to play around with than most people would think. My first assembly programming was done in grade school, how hard could it be in Kerbal?

[betaking]

It could be pretty difficult, python or lua - derrived systems would be better in the sense that they both object-oriented programming languages.

Thus it would be simpler to get things like readings from instruments, and/or to send instructions to specific parts.

[jrandom]

I'll wager real donuts that working with a simple assembly on a simple processor with, say 256 bytes of RAM will be far more fun, interesting, just the right level of challenging, and very, very Kerbal in tone and feeling.

When you're not battling the insane Intel architecture and real-world peripherals, assembly is going to be the easiest-to-learn and fun path.

[Ralathon]

I vote for a simple language. I don't know what other people are planning to program, but I'm mostly aiming for very simple programs. Think Apollo guidance computer level; so a reverse gravity turn descent profile, autostaging, synchronous burning etc. Simple subroutines that I can activate for probes I cannot fly manually. Something so numbercrunchy is much easier to make in an assembly style language.

[smunisto]

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's all remember this is a game.

I love creating my own relay network for the level of realism, but programming on python? Thanks, but no thanks.

I realise this will probably be optional, but still basing the concepts of this mod around executing commands via programming would make most people turn their heads away.

[Toyotawolf]

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's all remember this is a game.

I love creating my own relay network for the level of realism, but programming on python? Thanks, but no thanks.

I realise this will probably be optional, but still basing the concepts of this mod around executing commands via programming would make most people turn their heads away.

I have to agree, now if there was a way to do both say something togglable then that would work but I want to play not program.