[UNOFFICIAL/FANMADE] 0.17 Discussion Thread 2

[Da_Dumples]

I don't know the exact math behind it, but if the orbital craft (the actual piece with the winch) is heavy enough in relation to the lander and in a synchronous orbit, it should hold there quite fine, as long as ascent and descent are slow and steady, and you drop location is equatorial. There's no wind or anything in space (unless you count solar wind, it wont really push the craft unless it's made of special materials) so dropping the lander wouldn't pull the orbiter in odd directions. The wind on the planet (assuming it's not moving a super-sonic speeds) shouldn't be to much of an issue either.

[Shadownailshot]

I don't know the exact math behind it, but if the orbital craft (the actual piece with the winch) is heavy enough in relation to the lander and in a synchronous orbit, it should hold there quite fine, as long as ascent and descent are slow and steady, and you drop location is equatorial. There's no wind or anything in space (unless you count solar wind, it wont really push the craft unless it's made of special materials) so dropping the lander wouldn't pull the orbiter in odd directions. The wind on the planet (assuming it's not moving a super-sonic speeds) shouldn't be to much of an issue either.

If you were to lower a lander on a cable, whenever anything hits the atmosphere the friction will eventually pull it out of orbit. Even on a planet with a very light atmosphere.

[simplemunrockets]

Looks like I get to wait until the fuel transfer and orbital construction mods are updated, because any rocket that could feasibly get to Eve and back would destroy my computer.

Also, I've heard of plans where the counterweight is an asteroid.

[SLAMS]

There would be no drag atmospheric because the spacecraft, cable, and surface are all rotating at the same speed. Assuming you use a geostationary orbit for this like a space elevator would.

That said there are many physics issues with this plan as the poster mentioned.

As Shadownailshot said it would need to be a standard space elevator design to work. Even if we assume that I would rather not implement any space elevators, getting to space is most of the fun.

[Shadownailshot]

I would only like space elevators implemented if we are to have interstellar travel. I want a large interstellar ship. My computer cannot handle the Mount Everest of rockets it would take to get the ship in mind to orbit.

[Richy teh space man]

Theres four ways I can think of for exploring Eve

1 Parachute a space plane down and then take off and rendevous with a return ship in orbit then EVA over

2 Crewless landers (think mech jeb) that can be left in place

3 Use the space station mod to transport stuff around

4 Make engines with 0 fuel consumption

I'm leaning towards no 2 atm

As for the other planets and moons they should be quite a bit easier to land on and recover from imo

[ilikemoneygreen]

With a very long rope and a landed craft would centripetal force act upon a space elevator? Maybe counteract the atmospheric drag? Assuming you get good rotation on the smaller system objects.

[Bekiekutmoar]

Looks like I get to wait until the fuel transfer and orbital construction mods are updated, because any rocket that could feasibly get to Eve and back would destroy my computer.

Also, I've heard of plans where the counterweight is an asteroid.

Such a rocket would turn my computer in a pile of smoking rubble too, but we might handle this problem by sending two ships (one orbiter, one lander). One-way mission is also a possibility, but that means condemning one or more Kerbals to be stranded in a purple hell.

[eljaydub]

A Kerbin Space Elevator lowered from KSO (2868.4km) to sea level would require over 800,000 cubic meters of .3m diameter tether (I know that's far too small for any known material). That's a cube with 800m sides. That's quite a launch vehicle. Even if you had orbital assembly. Not to mention that Eve (depending on her rotation) will probably have a higher stationary orbit (If that's modeled after Venusian rotation it might not even have one). Your computer might literally have to hoist Mount Everest to get a space elevator.

[Zavvnao]

Can the ringed planets have Sheppard satellites much later?

[Baleur]

There would be no drag atmospheric because the spacecraft, cable, and surface are all rotating at the same speed. Assuming you use a geostationary orbit for this like a space elevator would.

That said there are many physics issues with this plan as the poster mentioned.

As Shadownailshot said it would need to be a standard space elevator design to work. Even if we assume that I would rather not implement any space elevators, getting to space is most of the fun.

Hang on, even if it is in geostationary orbit, there would be massive atmospheric drag, turbulence and winds. Since the atmosphere of a planet does not rotate with the surface but rather somewhat delayed (or sped up due to temperature differences blah blah blah), that's why we get winds and weather.

Unless, it does in KSP? Ah, i see. God i can't wait for aerodynamics in KSP.

[Shadownailshot]

A Kerbin Space Elevator lowered from KSO (2868.4km) to sea level would require over 800,000 cubic meters of .3m diameter tether (I know that's far too small for any known material). That's a cube with 800m sides. That's quite a launch vehicle. Even if you had orbital assembly. Not to mention that Eve (depending on her rotation) will probably have a higher stationary orbit (If that's modeled after Venusian rotation it might not even have one). Your computer might literally have to hoist Mount Everest to get a space elevator.

Any known material except carbon nano-tubing.

[eljaydub]

Any known material except carbon nano-tubing.

If the tether was thicker nanotubes would work. But at ~1foot thick, I think it would fail as well, but I'm not sure.

...but I think we're off topic.

I just hope the desert planet has a thick enough atmosphere to be able to glide a fully loaded SSTO spaceplane to the surface. Or arrest its fall enough to deploy parachutes that won't just tear off.

[Tauge]

Any known material except carbon nano-tubing.

Exactly, nano-tubes are the only known material that is both strong enough and light enough to make a space-elevator feasible. Now, if only we could get 2868.4 km (for Kerbin) worth of carbon nano-tubes...

[Cykyrios]

...but I think we're off topic.

Indeed. I would like to remind you all that this thread is for discussing announced features for 0.17, the list of which can be found here.

We all want to see version 0.17, but please, try to remain on topic

[Winter Man]

Even the Bernoulli principle ultimately produces it's lift by moving air down. Specifically, it's moving the air that would have been in the low pressure zone, down below the wing.

If something goes up, then something else must go down. There are no exceptions to this.

You're right, there aren't. But I was talking about level flight, where nothing goes up.

[eljaydub]

You're right, there aren't. But I was talking about level flight, where nothing goes up.

A better illustration is that there has to be an equal opposing force to the one holding the craft aloft. One that would exert a downward force on the surrounding atmosphere. So in a denser atmosphere like Eve, you would have to move less atmosphere to generate the same amount of force required for level flight.

[Winter Man]

Lower volume, yeah. But the same mass. My point was, the air doesn't move down ultimately - you then get a lower pressure on top which causes it to recirculate.

[eljaydub]

Lower volume, yeah. But the same mass. My point was, the air doesn't move down ultimately - you then get a lower pressure on top which causes it to recirculate.

Gotcha. Communicating these sorts of things without hand gestures is HARD.

I wonder if the atmo indicator will get a makeover to display thicker than normal atmospheres?

[Shadownailshot]

I just hope the desert planet has a thick enough atmosphere to be able to glide a fully loaded SSTO spaceplane to the surface. Or arrest its fall enough to deploy parachutes that won't just tear off.

I believe it will be something like .7% as dense at kerbin's atmosphere. Which means you either need a super-glider, a powered aircraft-like landing, or it just plain wont work at all.

[eljaydub]

I believe it will be something like .7% as dense at kerbin's atmosphere. Which means you either need a super-glider, a powered aircraft-like landing, or it just plain wont work at all.

Welp. Back to the drawing board. Or just spend several hours aerobraking.

[Winter Man]

Gotcha. Communicating these sorts of things without hand gestures is HARD.

I wonder if the atmo indicator will get a makeover to display thicker than normal atmospheres?

I know, right. I tend to carry a pack of post-its around with me so I can draw what I mean. I don't think it'd need to look any different, just get scaled to the atmosphere of the planet you're landing on.

I believe it will be something like .7% as dense at kerbin's atmosphere. Which means you either need a super-glider, a powered aircraft-like landing, or it just plain wont work at all.

You might be able to aerobrake then slow yourself finally with a little rocket, Ares 1 from the Mars Trilogy style.

[Shadownailshot]

Welp. Back to the drawing board. Or just spend several hours aerobraking.

Haha very very very slow descent might do it. But only might. And picking a landing site wont be easy with a descent like that. Could put your pe just inside the atmosphere, then leave the house for like a day.

[eljaydub]

Haha very very very slow descent might do it. But only might. And picking a landing site wont be easy with a descent like that. Could put your pe just inside the atmosphere, then leave the house for like a day.

That's what I was thinking. Usually makes for absurdly gentle Kerbin landings. Or just slap a few dozen SAS modules to the bottom of the lander and go for old school ablative lithobraking. ...Or just go for Eve.

[Shadownailshot]

That's what I was thinking. Usually makes for absurdly gentle Kerbin landings. Or just slap a few dozen SAS modules to the bottom of the lander and go for old school ablative lithobraking. ...Or just go for Eve.

I agree. Eve for spaceplanes!