KSP1 Computer Building/Buying Megathread

[Kerbal007]

Ival70 Thanks that's very handy I'll start reading cheers for the recommendations

[Harry Rhodan]

My upgrade cycle is 3 - 4 years for a full overhaul.

The current Broadwell architecture is only available in mobile processors which means most of the Intel desktop processors you can get now are more or less two years old. My advice would be to wait till the end of the year when they'll release their new Skylake processors that wil most likely support DDR4 RAM as well.

And as lot of games don't use Intel's HT technology you might be better of sticking to an i5 for a pure gaming rig.

[Red Iron Crown]

We have a great thread where all the computer hardware people give advice, merging this in.

[briansun1]

The current Broadwell architecture is only available in mobile processors which means most of the Intel desktop processors you can get now are more or less two years old. My advice would be to wait till the end of the year when they'll release their new Skylake processors that wil most likely support DDR4 RAM as well.

And as lot of games don't use Intel's HT technology you might be better of sticking to an i5 for a pure gaming rig.

I second the i-5 statement. Unless your doing something that can actually make use of the extra cores just go with a i5. You'll save money. As for weather to wait until skylake gets announced I really have no idea there. If you're going to get into Star Citizen I would get a gtx 980 or one of the R9 3XX when they come out. What ever you choose make sure it has at least 2gb of ram on it or it won't run well. My advice would to be wait until the summer if you can when we have a clearer idea of what's coming out.

[cantab]

Hi all, I am looking into a new build to play KSP on.

My upgrade cycle is 3 - 4 years for a full overhaul.

Ill give you a picture of what I have now, which still feels good but is aging and I would like a bit of future proofing just in case we get 2.0 or something

I run a i5-2500k with 16gb ram on ssd's with a 560ti gfx

This has been a really good setup for the past 3 years, I couldnt justify an i7 at the time as ive not really been a big gamer however now I am seeing that the games I enjoy, KSP, FSX etc seem to be more processor based due to calculations as oppsed to amzing gfx.

any tips for my next card, chip and board? (need a new board due to the i5 chip) would like to keep around $1200 aud +/-20% if possible. Was looking at the 970 from nvida, is this overkill? I am following star citizen

Thanks,

Kerbal 007

From that PC the biggest opportunity for improvement is the graphics card by far. Something like a 970 or even a 960 would be a major leap up from what you have, doubling or tripling framerates in games that aren't CPU-limited. For the processor there's less room for improvement - the latest i5's are faster but we're talking maybe 30% better kind of stuff, not a huge leap. So unless you know - by monitoring your system as you play - that your games are CPU-limited I don't think a regular Intel build now would be worthwhile.

Waiting for Skylake in the autumn may be an option. There processors will be a bit faster and may look like a more worthwhile upgrade from the 2500k, but more to the point with DDR4 you can expect a maximum RAM of 64 rather than 32 gigabytes. If you're building for the next three or four years that may be a factor.

A "Haswell-E" build may be an option if you want a new system now. That would give you six cores which will really boost performance of things that can use them, but for things that can't (like KSP!) the single-threaded performance won't be much faster than what you have now. Again it uses DDR4 memory with a large RAM capacity. However Haswell-E stuff isn't cheap.

[Camacha]

There is some pretty sound in here already. Sadly, I have to agree with Cantab and the others - the 2500K is still a very capable chip and the newer Intels have only improved incrementally. That means spending a whole lot of money on just a small improvement, if any at all, because most games will run just as well. You might want to consider spending some money on a fast modern GPU and sitting the CPU upgrade out for a while.

If you, for some reason really insist on upgrading and you do not overclock, an i7 may, for once, make sense. Normally I would advice against an i7 for gaming purposes, since very few games have anything to gain from hyper-threading, but there is one difference now: the 4970K. That chip is quite a bit faster than even its non-overclocking brother. It is the pure speed difference that might make it an option. Again, this only makes sense if you do not overclock, otherwise going for an i7 generally is a waste of money better spent elsewhere. Unless you are really quite sure the CPU is the limiting factor at the moment, I would be reluctant to throw money at upgrading to a new one.

The CPU market has slowed down a lot since even 4 years ago, so your upgrade cycle makes less sense than it used to. The difference between a 1998 and 2002 computer was a world apart, while the difference between a 2011 computer and a modern one is a lot less profound.

[Hunting.Targ]

At this point, to replace a 7-year-old home office machine, I think I will just get an all-in-one and put some more memory into it. That's until I can build a dream machine, something I can sink $5-10K into. I'm just annoyed that I can't find an integrated touchscreen with both AMD and Windows 7 that's not an HP.

What I would like to know is does anyone here use a joystick, and if so what and why? This is important to me because I used to be big into flight sims (small surprise I'm here now, no?)

Edited May 9, 2015 by Hunting.Targ
Sig tweak (gotta get it right this time!... YES!)

[Camacha]

That's until I can build a dream machine, something I can sink $5-10K into.

Unless you are doing it for the lulz, I would strongly recommend against that. Building any computer beyond $2000-2500 is yielding very little improvement for a huge amount of money. Some notable exceptions apply, like workstation computers meant for professional heavy duty CAD work, but it does apply for pretty much all imaginable user, prosumer and even professional workloads. Somewhere between $1500 and $2500 is a sweet spot where you get a very fast computer for a not insane amount of money. You are much better off with buying two or three of those computers over the years than spending a ridiculous amount of money on one and still being stuck with what inevitably is going to be outdated hardware. It really is no fun being surpassed by much cheaper, quieter and frugal systems that cost a mere fraction of what your rig cost not too long ago.

So, if you want to be on the bleeding edge, build a very fast computer every 2-3 years. You will have the latest technologies, it will be at pretty much peak performance in absolute terms and provide a whole lot more relative value compared to that monster system no one wants just 2 or 3 years down the line.

[Red Iron Crown]

At this point, to replace a 7-year-old home office machine, I think I will just get an all-in-one and put some more memory into it. That's until I can build a dream machine, something I can sink $5-10K into. I'm just annoyed that I can't find an integrated touchscreen with both AMD and Windows 7 that's not an HP.

Is there a compelling reason to go with an all-in-one for you? Compared to a conventional desktop they are less upgradeable and offer less performance per dollar, while compared to a laptop they are far less portable and consume more power. It's almost the worst of both worlds, you are almost always better off going with a regular desktop or laptop.

Camacha covered the "$5-10K computer" bit pretty well, I would add that it's better to buy a $2500 PC now and then another $2500 PC when the technology has moved ahead significantly.

What I would like to know is does anyone here use a joystick, and if so what and why? This is important to me because I used to be big into flight sims (small surprise I'm here now, no?)

For KSP, joysticks offer the advantage of analog control compared to the all-or-nothing control inputs from the keyboard. This lets you control your vessel in a smoother, more precise fashion. Plus you can map controls to the buttons to have functions right at your fingertips. It's more of a benefit with planes than with rockets/spacecraft, but both benefit.

[Camacha]

For KSP, joysticks offer the advantage of analog control compared to the all-or-nothing control inputs from the keyboard. This lets you control your vessel in a smoother, more precise fashion. Plus you can map controls to the buttons to have functions right at your fingertips. It's more of a benefit with planes than with rockets/spacecraft, but both benefit.

Though I am more of a controller fan, I enjoy flying a lot more with the more subtle control analogue inputs provide. It feels like I am actually piloting something, rather than slapping buttons around and hoping for the best. This is especially valuable since Ferram's excellent aerodynamic failure update, as some craft need a little finessing to keep them in one piece. It also makes things

a lot more viable and enjoyable.

Rockets I prefer to automate through kOS, so no problem there. When the Oculus finally arrives in its full glory I might finally be tempted to go for a more comprehensive cockpit simulation with proper controls (as I would like to fly proper simulators too), but for now I enjoy a controller as an intermediate set-up.

[cantab]

I got a 360 controller specifically for flying in FAR. It's not perfect but I've really enjoyed using it for aircraft flight, though I did need the assistance of a joypad>keyboard inputs program for some functions. (1.0 has better controller support but such a program might still be useful for some things). For rockets I tend to stick with the keyboard, though I've used the controller occasionally and it works well.

As for all in ones, generally you're paying for appearance, and they aren't good gaming machines. Also in my view touchscreens only work when they're small enough that you'll be sitting within easy reach of them. The managers at my office have some large all-in-ones, they're good PCs for their needs but the touchscreen feature is pointless when you have to lean right forward just to reach it.

[Hunting.Targ]

Unless you are doing it for the lulz, I would strongly recommend against that. Building any computer beyond $2000-2500 is yielding very little improvement for a huge amount of money. Some notable exceptions apply, like workstation computers meant for professional heavy duty CAD work, but it does apply for pretty much all imaginable user, prosumer and even professional workloads. Somewhere between $1500 and $2500 is a sweet spot where you get a very fast computer for a not insane amount of money. You are much better off with buying two or three of those computers over the years than spending a ridiculous amount of money on one and still being stuck with what inevitably is going to be outdated hardware. It really is no fun being surpassed by much cheaper, quieter and frugal systems that cost a mere fraction of what your rig cost not too long ago.

So, if you want to be on the bleeding edge, build a very fast computer every 2-3 years. You will have the latest technologies, it will be at pretty much peak performance in absolute terms and provide a whole lot more relative value compared to that monster system no one wants just 2 or 3 years down the line.

Camacha covered the "$5-10K computer" bit pretty well, I would add that it's better to buy a $2500 PC now and then another $2500 PC when the technology has moved ahead significantly.

I've never been comfortable buying stock models, and I don't like rebuilding every few years. I love upgrading hardware; but once I get nestled into a groove with a particular OS and a particular software layout and a particular array of tweaks and setting adjustments (is there a theme here?), I don't like to move everything in either a backup or a partition image and re-integrate. If I can get a tower I'd be comfortable working in (and LOVE looking at!), and a motherboard I'm confident won't be dated in 5 years, I'd be happy to part-swap for 5-10 years, even if it's not the most cost-effective way to use hardware. Besides, one of the fun side benefits of upgrading is building Frankenstein rigs with old parts.

{Note: I also might consider building a compressed-coolant system like Kryotech used to sell, and THAT would be worth sinking money into.}

Is there a compelling reason to go with an all-in-one for you? Compared to a conventional desktop they are less upgradeable and offer less performance per dollar, while compared to a laptop they are far less portable and consume more power. It's almost the worst of both worlds, you are almost always better off going with a regular desktop or laptop.

Only because I don't want to mess with a desktop every 6-12 mos until I can have exactly what I want, and because I decided against having my own laptop for a variety of reasons - a desktop and smartphone is quite enough technological productive capacity for me. If it's that important, I'll scribble in my notebook and flesh it out later. If I can have a computer I can hang on my office wall and not tinker with for a few years, I will be fine with that.

I do appreciate you both pointing out the points of other options. It's just that my compelling reason is neither economy nor portability and convenience, it's - ... simplicity. Even I, as a geek among geeks, realize that I can't think about everything in accurate detail all the time. Sometimes it's necessary to sacrifice things one genuinely enjoys and excels at for the sake of focus and effectiveness. It's not a personal decision (well, it is aesthetically), it's a priority decision. Like the late Steve Jobs, I believe that there are times that technology should 'just work', and be so transparent you see right through it to the task. Much as I enjoy looking at technology, I am at a point where I need to look through it, but I'm not about to throw down for a 'war horse' or a 'big rig' machine, so I will settle for a 'camel.' So I do thank you both for your advice, and I do plan to make use of it in the future.

For KSP, joysticks offer the advantage of analog control compared to the all-or-nothing control inputs from the keyboard. This lets you control your vessel in a smoother, more precise fashion. Plus you can map controls to the buttons to have functions right at your fingertips. It's more of a benefit with planes than with rockets/spacecraft, but both benefit.

Yes, I do understand that. I was just asking what particular unit you picked out and why. I have used a few joysticks in my many, many Müns of computing, and the first one was still the best experience. It was simple, but powerfully effective. 3 buttons, 2 toggles, manual axis bias adjusters, and a graphite-lubricated hard plastic ball-bearing socket. Many flight sims were ravished by that instrument. Too many of the more modern designs, while looking way cooler, to me feel plasticky, unrefined, and plain old cheap. If it doesn't feel like it belongs in a cockpit, it's not likely to earn my respect.

[Red Iron Crown]

I've never been comfortable buying stock models, and I don't like rebuilding every few years. I love upgrading hardware; but once I get nestled into a groove with a particular OS and a particular software layout and a particular array of tweaks and setting adjustments (is there a theme here?), I don't like to move everything in either a backup or a partition image and re-integrate.

<snip>

It's just that my compelling reason is neither economy nor portability and convenience, it's - ... simplicity.

Fair enough, those are matters of personal preference. I think we just want you to be aware of the trade off made when buying an all-in-one or spending in the very upper end of the market, if the trade off still seems good to you then by all means go ahead.

Yes, I do understand that. I was just asking what particular unit you picked out and why. I have used a few joysticks in my many, many Müns of computing, and the first one was still the best experience. It was simple, but powerfully effective. 3 buttons, 2 toggles, manual axis bias adjusters, and a graphite-lubricated hard plastic ball-bearing socket. Many flight sims were ravished by that instrument. Too many of the more modern designs, while looking way cooler, to me feel plasticky, unrefined, and plain old cheap. If it doesn't feel like it belongs in a cockpit, it's not likely to earn my respect.

I don't use a traditional joystick, I use one of these, which has six axes of control and is fantastic for spacecraft and OKish for aircraft. It also provides fantastic camera control (though there is a bug that prevents using it for such in the VAB/SPH).

For more traditional joysticks, the entry level ones from Logitech et al are serviceable but I suspect you'll consider them in the "plasticky" category. For higher end joysticks you would have to pay more for something from the likes of CH or Thrustmaster. How I wish I hadn't broken a spring in my old Thrustmaster, and that my PC had a gameport and software support for it.

[Camacha]

I've never been comfortable buying stock models, and I don't like rebuilding every few years. I love upgrading hardware; but once I get nestled into a groove with a particular OS and a particular software layout and a particular array of tweaks and setting adjustments (is there a theme here?), I don't like to move everything in either a backup or a partition image and re-integrate. If I can get a tower I'd be comfortable working in (and LOVE looking at!), and a motherboard I'm confident won't be dated in 5 years, I'd be happy to part-swap for 5-10 years, even if it's not the most cost-effective way to use hardware. Besides, one of the fun side benefits of upgrading is building Frankenstein rigs with old parts.

To each his own. Please note that both working with the same OS installation for 5-10 years and/or not making any backups (as your posts suggests but not really confirms, so I might be wrong about the backup part) are both ill advised, to say the least. Computers need regular maintenance and care and though it is possible to postpone a new installation for a long time, chances of trouble to increase over time. Motherboards will most certainly be outdated after 5 years, to the point where upgrading within the capabilities of your old board generally costs more and is more trouble than just buying a new one. 10 years is most certainly a ridiculous amount of time to wait to upgrade pretty much any hardware.

Since this is a mode of working I do not feel is advisable or efficient, I cannot give you any more advice, as I would have to recommend things I do not feel comfortable with and that I would not recommend to anyone else. Please, for the love of Jeb, make good and regular backups, as older hardware is much more prone to cause vague problems or simply break down. Best of luck.

[moronwrocket]

I've received approval from Mission Control to update my system as a b-day present. Here's what I currently have spec'd out:

Monitor(already have) 2560x1440

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[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]Corsair Obsidian Series 350D CC-9011029-WW Black Aluminum / Steel MicroATX Case with Window

Item #: N82E16811139021

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy[/TD]

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[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$109.99[/TD]

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[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]GIGABYTE GA-Z97MX-Gaming 5 LGA 1150 Intel Z97 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard

Item #: N82E16813128716

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8]-$20.00 Instant

$10.00 Mail-in Rebate Card[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$134.99

$114.99[/TD]

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[TR]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=width: 63, bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]MSI GTX 970 GAMING 4G GeForce GTX 970 4GB 256-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support G-SYNC Support Video Card

Item #: N82E16814127832

Return Policy: VGA Replacement Only Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8]$10.00 Mail-in Rebate Card[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$349.99[/TD]

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[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: center]1[/TD]

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[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]SeaSonic G Series SSR-550RM 550W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply New 4th Gen CPU Certified Haswell Ready

Item #: N82E16817151119

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8]-$5.00 Instant[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$89.99

$84.99[/TD]

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[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=width: 63, bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]Intel Core i7-4790K Devil’s Canyon Quad-Core 4.0GHz LGA 1150 BX80646I74790K Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4600

Item #: N82E16819117369

Return Policy: CPU Replacement Only Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8]-$10.00 Instant[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$349.99

$339.99[/TD]

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[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=width: 63, bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model BLS2KIT8G3D1609DS1S00

Item #: N82E16820148545

Return Policy: Memory Standard Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$108.99[/TD]

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[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=width: 63, bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]Crucial BX100 CT500BX100SSD1 2.5" 500GB SATA 6Gbps (SATA III) Micron 16nm MLC NAND Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

Item #: N82E16820148946

Return Policy: Limited Replacement Only Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8]-$30.00 Instant[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$219.99

$189.99[/TD]

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[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM

Item #: N82E16827135204

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$19.99[/TD]

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[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: center]1[/TD]

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[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]Microsoft Windows 8.1 64-bit

Item #: N82E16832416776

Return Policy: FINAL SALES RETURN POLICY[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$99.99[/TD]

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[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=width: 63, bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=width: 250, bgcolor: #e8e8e8]Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO - CPU Cooler with 120 mm PWM Fan

Item #: N82E16835103099

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8][/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #e8e8e8, align: right]$34.99

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I went with a microATX system for size, and my cooler/GPU choices were skewed a little towards a quieter/lower power consumption system. My current system is 5 years old, with an AMD Phenom II x4 970 and ATI 6870, so this should be a nice jump for me. I'm hoping to go full screen KSP (2560x1440) at close to full FPS for <200 part builds. My .90 game with a 400 part Minmus base + mining nodes was sub 3 fps, which was mood-killing.

Going to pull the trigger tonight, let me know thoughts etc!

[Camacha]

I went with a microATX system for size

Why exactly? You are putting a whole lot of hardware in a tiny package. I would check, check and double check all the dimensions, especially the cooler and the GPU.

[Red Iron Crown]

Great system choices. I would go with Win7 and a different case, but those are personal preferences. Your heatsink is going to be a tight fit, case lists 160mm clearance while the HS is 159mm.

Aside from that, do you really need an i7? An i5 perfroms about equally in most tasks for 2/3 the price, unless you do a lot of something that specifically responds well to hyperthreading it's usually not worth paying more for.

[cantab]

Micro ATX isn't that tiny really, it's not like Mini ITX. Though I second checking dimensions.

As for the build, "typical high-end gaming PC", not an awful lot to say. If you're planning on overclocking then the i7 4790K is a lot more money than the i5 4690K for not much more performance, but the i7 is more compelling if you prefer to stick to stock speeds. If you at all like to store movies, TV shows, or lots of music on your PC then you should add a high-capacity mechanical or hybrid drive to complement the SSD.

[Camacha]

Great system choices. I would go with Win7 and a different case, but those are personal preferences. Your heatsink is going to be a tight fit, case lists 160mm clearance while the HS is 159mm

Those kinds of tolerances are way too close for comfort. You really need to find someone who actually built this specific combination to make sure, or you need a good return policy.

[Red Iron Crown]

Good point, Camacha. I've found listed clearances to be generally conservative, but it's not something one wants to chance.

[moronwrocket]

Max GPU length is 380, the MSI is 280, so there should be plenty of clearance there. The 159mm/160mm did concern me, but a search found several other people using the same configuration didn't have problems. I have to fit it into an under-desk alcove, and I'd prefer something smaller than my current full size case. Plus I can raise it up that way and keep it further from the ground.

Yeah, the i5/i7 choice is still up in the air. I also have a secondary 1280x1024 monitor attached that I use for webbrowsing etc while gaming, plus I do run virtual machines occasionally, and maybe a Guild Wars 2 or Minecraft in the background during long burns. I definitely want fast stock speed, OC'ing just doesn't appeal to me any more.

[Camacha]

Good point, Camacha. I've found listed clearances to be generally conservative

I thought so too, until I needed to remove my HDD cage to fit that card that, according to the numbers, should fit fine without touching anything else.

The 159mm/160mm did concern me, but a search found several other people using the same configuration didn't have problems.

Nothing beats actually trying it, so if that works out it should be fine.

Yeah, the i5/i7 choice is still up in the air. I also have a secondary 1280x1024 monitor attached that I use for webbrowsing etc while gaming, plus I do run virtual machines occasionally, and maybe a Guild Wars 2 or Minecraft in the background during long burns. I definitely want fast stock speed, OC'ing just doesn't appeal to me any more.

With the understanding that I recommend the i7 based on clockspeed, not because it's an i7 or because it has hyper-threading, I think that would be the better option here.

[moronwrocket]

The new machine is on its way! Can't wait to do 2560x1440 full screen!

[Hunting.Targ]

...

I don't use a traditional joystick, I use one of these, which has six axes of control and is fantastic for spacecraft and OKish for aircraft. It also provides fantastic camera control (though there is a bug that prevents using it for such in the VAB/SPH).

Now that looks interesting; it reminds me a little of the hand control of the NASA MMU first fielded on the Space Shuttle Orbiter; it has similar characteristics, allowing for full translation and orientation control on a single instrument.

For more traditional joysticks, the entry level ones from Logitech et al are serviceable but I suspect you'll consider them in the "plasticky" category. For higher end joysticks you would have to pay more for something from the likes of CH or Thrustmaster. How I wish I hadn't broken a spring in my old Thrustmaster, and that my PC had a gameport and software support for it.

THX! ; that was more helpful.

Logitech has made some cool stuff; I have packed away somewhere a trak-ball made for graphic design that fit quite well inside the finger grip area; it had five buttons, and zones for both coarse and fine control. Would never use it for a FSP or flight sim, and I had to clean it regularly, and even spread a drop of olive oil on the ball for maximum glide and sensitivity, but it had its moments. WAY better than most digitally-actuated controllers.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, it is possible to create support if you can get the API and driver specs; there is (was?) a dinosaur joystick that had a multitude of buttons on it before gamepads came out, and I seriously considered updating the drivers because I wanted to use it to play MechWarrior: Mercenaries. But after getting the first gamepad (this one, the Belkin Nostromo n50), I never looked back. For me joysticks are all about quality design and construction; and report/refresh rate. All the extranea can be handled by the keyboard or a supplementary input device. Which is why your 3Dconnect device looks so appealing; too bad it doesn't work in the VAB. (Have you written to them about driver compatibility now that 1.0 is out?)

[Drunken Hobo]

Can anyone recommend any good gamepad controller for PC? Will be mainly used for driving games, as I can't afford a decent wheel yet still want the thrill of the race. Not a huge fan of the Xbox 360 controller, but from what I've read so far that seems to be be the best bet. Would prefer something more like the PlayStation set-up, but also worry about it not being fully recognised by some games.