KSP1 Computer Building/Buying Megathread

[Endersmens]

Well...I think I'm gonna stick with the 960. I think it will be enough. If I wanna grab a rx480 or 1060 in a few months when they're cheaper I may do that. Anyways, I have one more question before I buy.

EDIT: A friend helped me with the build. I changed some things, and we managed to add a lot for the same-ish price. RAM went down to 8GB because I can get by with that for a month or two. SSD went down to 120GB because I will only be putting OS and maybe 1-2 games on it. Was able to put a much better mobo, a CPU cooler, and the wireless adapter in. What do you guys think? I think I'm hitting the ceiling for an $800 build. Also, I plan on scouting my local computer repair shop for a used monitor for cheap. The one on the build is a placeholder.

Also, no microcenter nearby. Closest is 6-8+ hours away.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Endersmens

[Alphasus]

6 hours ago, Endersmens said:

Well...I think I'm gonna stick with the 960. I think it will be enough. If I wanna grab a rx480 or 1060 in a few months when they're cheaper I may do that. Anyways, I have one more question before I buy.

EDIT: A friend helped me with the build. I changed some things, and we managed to add a lot for the same-ish price. RAM went down to 8GB because I can get by with that for a month or two. SSD went down to 120GB because I will only be putting OS and maybe 1-2 games on it. Was able to put a much better mobo, a CPU cooler, and the wireless adapter in. What do you guys think? I think I'm hitting the ceiling for an $800 build. Also, I plan on scouting my local computer repair shop for a used monitor for cheap. The one on the build is a placeholder.

Also, no microcenter nearby. Closest is 6-8+ hours away.

That isn't really a better build. You added creature comforts, but not performance to the build, and traded off performance. I said the same thing about an SSD by the way, I had to upgrade to 256 GB a month ago, and I only have KSP and Elite Dangerous there. And, I have a 1 TB rotating drive. A wireless adapter is disadvantageous if you have wired connections. If you could get by shaving the RAM, then do so on the main build and get a 1060 if you need the performance. But don't buy a 1060 or 480 after the fact. Used 960 value is already dropping. You pay less if you buy what you need now.

TL;DR: You will likely spend more with the new build than with the previous build because of upgrades. Add an extra $40 for RAM, and an extra $60 for SSD and you would spend more than if you just took the performance, not the creature comforts.

8 hours ago, Camacha said:

@Endersmens

- We are discussing both CPU and GPU rendering. If you look at both and spend money to do both, you will have a flexible system that is also prepared for other renderers you might want to use later on. Flexibility, on the other hand, costs money.
- If gaming is your main concern, the focus of the discussion on rendering seems a bit trivial.

 

I referred to that before, but that might have gotten buried between the configuration posts. It will take more of an investment, aye. If money is tight already, that might be a problem. An air cooler is upgraded easily later on, but a motherboard is not easy to replace. Considering we are already stretching the budget, dropping overclocking seems to be a logical choice.

 

You seem to have a strong bias against AMD. Please let that not get in the way of proper advice. The point of this discussion is to get Endersmens the most bang for his buck. I will comment point by point.

- An RX480 does not kill your motherboard. The story about the GPU not adhering to ATX specifications is blown out of proportions, mostly by people that do not understand how things are properly measured. No examples of an RX480 actually causing any problems whatsoever exist, which means the actual problem is non-existent.
- We should note rendering is not the primary concern, but gaming is.
- When it comes to gaming, the RX480 appear to be much more value for money than Nvidia's competition.
- With a modern processor (which both the i5-6500 and the Xeon are), the GPU will pretty much always be the limiting factor. A faster card means more frames.
- There seems to be few direct comparisons between OpenCL and CUDA rendering. It mostly is people saying the same things without proving them. It does seem that OpenCL has been under development longer.

The RX480 is an very interesting choice at the moment. Nothing Nvidia has to offer for the same money comes close to it and it is not that fast that the performance is wasted. If you look at a random review, you will see it generally makes a big difference at 1080P in games where the framerate is not already over 60-80 fps. The difference between 30 and 50 fps is very noticeable and most games show similar performance improvements.

Mind you, I am not saying the GTX960 is not a viable option. I am just saying that the RX480, if you have the money to spend, seems to be a better option when it comes to gaming at 1080P. If the money is not there, sure, buy a slightly less nimble card that will still provide an good experience. If needs be, a GPU can be replaced with ease later on, so punching below your weight on the GPU is not a disaster.

I love some of AMD's cards.(R9 Nano is great when they update it for Polaris)

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1894349

I think Endersmens listed off the games he would be playing beforehand... Nothing really triple A, and the worst I saw was KSP.  If he could do that again, that would be great. And of course the RX 480 is the best $200 GPU around. But performance per dollar may be taken by: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-gtx-1060-performance-benchmarks-leak/

http://en.yibada.com/articles/141122/20160713/gtx-1060-release-and-price-gtx-1080-amd-rx-480-gtx-1060-vs-amd-radeon-rx-480-nvidia-gtx.htm

A 1060 is faster than the 480 in every single way, and it will render faster, and it has 3GB VRAM at the same pricepoint where the 480 has 4. That's why I have held off on recommending any RX 480s. They were just outclassed by the 1060. It even lost in all benchmarks, and when overclocked, is similar to a 1060...

Long story short, the games that he does play wouldn't even use a full 960. But if performance is that important, wait for the 1060 to formally release in 3 days. Its faster than a 480.

[Elthy]

Since its faster it will also be a lot more expensive. Also dont forget that almost any AMD card in the past years got about 15% faster with a few updates and then outclased its Nvidia competition...

[Alphasus]

1 hour ago, Elthy said:

Since its faster it will also be a lot more expensive. Also dont forget that almost any AMD card in the past years got about 15% faster with a few updates and then outclased its Nvidia competition...

$250 for the 6GB version. 

$200 for the RX 480 8 GB. 

What were you saying about pricing? 

Verify the last point please.

[Elthy]

Ok, verification: Its more like 5-10%, but still there:

Im using the "Performance Index" of the german website "3dcenter.org". While in german, i think you should be able to see the performance values. They use a percent-based system, combining the test results of more than 10 tech websites. The 100% are base on some older GPU, i think from AMDs 5000/6000 lineup, cant find it right now. For the most recent numbers im using the most recent market overview from last years september (all important 28nm GPUs were mature there): http://www.3dcenter.org/news/schneller-performance-ueberblick-der-28nm-grafikkarten

Now lets compare the performance of the 7970/7950vs680/670:

http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/launch-analyse-nvidia-geforce-gtx-670
This article is the launch analysis of the 670, the other cards were allready released at that point. There we can see how the numbers changed later:

At Launch:               2015:         Increase:
HD 7970: 330%   -> 360%         9%
HD 7950: 290%   -> 310%         7%
GTX 670: 330%   -> 330%         0%
GTX 680: 360%   -> 360%         0%

This also showed in the prices, when i bought my 7970 i was planning to buy a 670 (both for 400€), but it was sold out. Luckily i went for the 7970 with a better long time value.

Similar with the 290/290Xvs780/770:
http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/launch-analyse-amd-radeon-r9-290

At Launch:               2015:         Increase:
R9 290:   460%   -> 480%         4%
R9 290X: 480%   -> 520%         8%
GTX 780: 440%   -> 440%         0%
Titan      : 440%   -> 480%         0%

Additionaly the AMD cards have more VRAM which made them being used for a longer time.

 

[cantab]

The reason that happens, though, is arguably because AMD release cards with rubbish drivers. (Whatever the OS). Not sure it should really be considered a plus point for them.

[Alphasus]

6 minutes ago, cantab said:

The reason that happens, though, is arguably because AMD release cards with rubbish drivers. (Whatever the OS). Not sure it should really be considered a plus point for them.

Especially Linux. When your drivers are bad and they get better, that isn't really positive considering they were bad to start.

[Endersmens]

I hate having to explain this, but here goes. I can't use wires. We don't have cable, we have ground based radio. We can't move the router, and my computer is in my room. I'm really close to the router by straight line, but my door is the opposite direction and my mom doesn't want a cable going through the living room. And it's not our house to drill a hole through the wall. Wireless is really my only option, and I want it to be flexible for the future. And I got one that supports 5GHz because the radio uses 2.4GHz so I wanted to avoid more interference.

 

How is is that motherboard not an upgrade? It supports double the ram, and has 2 pci3 and 3 pci1 as opposed to the small board with one of each. I was told the CPU cooler on the i5 wasn't the best and that for rendering and recording I would need a better cooler. 

[Camacha]

18 hours ago, Alphasus said:

TL;DR: You will likely spend more with the new build than with the previous build because of upgrades. Add an extra $40 for RAM, and an extra $60 for SSD and you would spend more than if you just took the performance, not the creature comforts.

I agree here. A wireless card could easily be added later, even though you want a cable if at all possible. Wired performance remains far superior to that of a wireless connection.

Having just 128 GB for an SDD is a bit sparse and it will be much more costly to upgrade later. Besides, game start to rely on SSD performance more and more. Fallout 4 is a game with huge loading times on a traditional HDD and developers are more and more heading that way. That being said, even without taking games into consideration, a 128 GB SSD really is not the best choice any more. It just does not make sense to save money there.

When it comes to memory, starting out with 8 GB could be feasible, as long as you start out with one stick and are totally sure you can get exactly the same memory later on. Mixed memory can cause issues that would be easily prevented. It is also worth pointing out memory prices are at an all time low. Last time they were this low, manufacturers cut production, causing the prices to double or even triple. Buying now would not be silly.

18 hours ago, Alphasus said:

I think Endersmens listed off the games he would be playing beforehand... Nothing really triple A, and the worst I saw was KSP.  If he could do that again, that would be great.

Endersmens indicated that he primarily wanted to build a system that would play games. You can play some games with the earlier i3 system, but it cannot be considered a modern gaming system. The i5 brings it into modern gaming territory and it only makes sense to match performance GPU wise. Of course, replacing a GPU is much more trivial than replacing something like a CPU.

 

18 hours ago, Alphasus said:

 But performance per dollar may be taken by: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-gtx-1060-performance-benchmarks-leak/

http://en.yibada.com/articles/141122/20160713/gtx-1060-release-and-price-gtx-1080-amd-rx-480-gtx-1060-vs-amd-radeon-rx-480-nvidia-gtx.htm

A 1060 is faster than the 480 in every single way, and it will render faster, and it has 3GB VRAM at the same pricepoint where the 480 has 4. That's why I have held off on recommending any RX 480s. They were just outclassed by the 1060. It even lost in all benchmarks, and when overclocked, is similar to a 1060...

I disagree there. Nvidia has not had great performance per dollar at enthusiast level in years. You go with those cards for specific technologies or peak performance. Right now only leaked numbers are available, which also seem to differ from source to source quite a bit. We will need to wait until 19 July before we know anything definitive.

Of course, we are also not sure about prices, but historically, we can be pretty sure any extra performance comes at a healthy premium. Considering the tight budget already, it seems unlikely that it is a realistic possibility.

12 hours ago, cantab said:

The reason that happens, though, is arguably because AMD release cards with rubbish drivers. (Whatever the OS). Not sure it should really be considered a plus point for them.

That is a rather malicious interpretation. Nvidia is not know for driver development, so what you see it often what you get. Problems are not always fixed later on. It seems AMD spends a lot more time optimizing and developing their drivers. The RX480 would already be pushing it.

On 16/07/2016 at 5:17 AM, Endersmens said:

Well...I think I'm gonna stick with the 960. I think it will be enough. If I wanna grab a rx480 or 1060 in a few months when they're cheaper I may do that. Anyways, I have one more question before I buy.

That is the expensive way of doing it. Computer hardware loses value fast, so if you buy anything, do it right. That being said, you do not need to buy everything at once. That is the beauty of buying a desktop computer. You can expand and add parts later on. Add memory, a disk drive or a better cooler. Just do not buy the same part twice within a short period of time.

[Alphasus]

16 hours ago, Endersmens said:

I hate having to explain this, but here goes. I can't use wires. We don't have cable, we have ground based radio. We can't move the router, and my computer is in my room. I'm really close to the router by straight line, but my door is the opposite direction and my mom doesn't want a cable going through the living room. And it's not our house to drill a hole through the wall. Wireless is really my only option, and I want it to be flexible for the future. And I got one that supports 5GHz because the radio uses 2.4GHz so I wanted to avoid more interference.

 

How is is that motherboard not an upgrade? It supports double the ram, and has 2 pci3 and 3 pci1 as opposed to the small board with one of each. I was told the CPU cooler on the i5 wasn't the best and that for rendering and recording I would need a better cooler. 

I don't have a partslist to see the upgraded motherboard. What I said was that you wouldn't see many benefits from it anyways. Besides the RAM, modern video cards work only about 5% slower with PCIe 2 bandwidth. The CPU cooler on the i5 is just fine. 

• 25-35C when completely idle
• 35-40C when doing stuff on the Internet
• 65-72C when playing games like GTA IV or War Thunder (a little bit less when playing Mafia 2).

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/4jd202/are_these_i56500_temperatures_normal_with_stock/

[Elthy]

The problem with stock coolers never was the temperature (except for OC), but the sound. Most are more tolerant than me, but i think the intel stock cooler sounds like a hairdryer when booting up the PC.

[Alphasus]

3 minutes ago, Elthy said:

The problem with stock coolers never was the temperature (except for OC), but the sound. Most are more tolerant than me, but i think the intel stock cooler sounds like a hairdryer when booting up the PC.

Same problem with his built in case fans. Its going to be loud... unless hes willing to spend another $50-$100 in fans.

[Camacha]

48 minutes ago, Alphasus said:

Same problem with his built in case fans. Its going to be loud... unless hes willing to spend another $50-$100 in fans.

There are options that are a lot cheaper. However, fans are one of those things that are easily replaced later on. As long as you take care that your PSU is not too noisy, you can silence your system pretty effectively.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Camacha

[Alphasus]

24 minutes ago, Camacha said:

There are options that are a lot cheaper. However, fans are one of those things that are easily replaced later on. As long as you take care that your PSU is not too noisy, you can silence your system pretty effectively.

$50 with a cooler, and fans. Apparently I typoed.

[Endersmens]

Sorry guys, I thought I put a part list. Here it is http://pcpartpicker.com/list/4VGMZ8

Cooler is $30. If the stock fan is really alright, then I can knock that off. The only way to budget the 1060 into the build is to get the microATX board. And now that I've seen the regular ATX I'm not sure if I want to.

@Camacha, I explained why I need a wireless card. I don't have a way around it. I can't be wired at all. I have to have a wireless card. Here it is again just in case you missed it  

"I hate having to explain this, but here goes. I can't use wires. We don't have cable, we have ground based radio. We can't move the router, and my computer is in my room. I'm really close to the router by straight line, but my door is the opposite direction and my mom doesn't want a cable going through the living room. And it's not our house to drill a hole through the wall. Wireless is really my only option, and I want it to be flexible for the future. And I got one that supports 5GHz because the radio uses 2.4GHz so I wanted to avoid more interference."

[Alphasus]

4 hours ago, Endersmens said:

Sorry guys, I thought I put a part list. Here it is http://pcpartpicker.com/list/4VGMZ8

Cooler is $30. If the stock fan is really alright, then I can knock that off. The only way to budget the 1060 into the build is to get the microATX board. And now that I've seen the regular ATX I'm not sure if I want to.

@Camacha, I explained why I need a wireless card. I don't have a way around it. I can't be wired at all. I have to have a wireless card. Here it is again just in case you missed it  

"I hate having to explain this, but here goes. I can't use wires. We don't have cable, we have ground based radio. We can't move the router, and my computer is in my room. I'm really close to the router by straight line, but my door is the opposite direction and my mom doesn't want a cable going through the living room. And it's not our house to drill a hole through the wall. Wireless is really my only option, and I want it to be flexible for the future. And I got one that supports 5GHz because the radio uses 2.4GHz so I wanted to avoid more interference."

Cut the cooler. Up the SSD to 256, and get the OS with a student discount. If you can't, I found a mono with onboard wifi in the newest standard, which means that it should do 5 GHZ. It is mini ITX, but it frees up $50 for a 1060 if you really want it. Otherwise, cut the cooler off your current build, add the 240 GB BX 200, and add RAM up to 16 GB.

http://pcpartpicker.com/list/VTtTBP

This is also a thing. I keep switching CPUs because the 4590 is just as fast as the 6500 for $20 less, still works with stock cooler, and has cheaper motherboards. That will also let you drop a 1060 in. It includes a USB 3 wifi card, which won't take up a mobo slot.

http://pcpartpicker.com/list/LGHgwV

Edited July 18, 2016 by Alphasus

[Endersmens]

I won't take the 4590, it won't allow ddr4 and other things. I'm going with that mini ITX case you suggested, and this cuts the final price down to around $800 with the 1060 in there. http://pcpartpicker.com/list/kTgWD8

I chose a 1x16GB RAM stick so I can add another later for the full 32GB that the mobo supports.

[Camacha]

12 hours ago, Endersmens said:

@Camacha, I explained why I need a wireless card. I don't have a way around it. I can't be wired at all. I have to have a wireless card. Here it is again just in case you missed it  

"I hate having to explain this, but here goes. I can't use wires. We don't have cable, we have ground based radio. We can't move the router, and my computer is in my room. I'm really close to the router by straight line, but my door is the opposite direction and my mom doesn't want a cable going through the living room. And it's not our house to drill a hole through the wall. Wireless is really my only option, and I want it to be flexible for the future. And I got one that supports 5GHz because the radio uses 2.4GHz so I wanted to avoid more interference."

It would probably pay to look into your options when it comes to a wireless connection. Having a separate card means different options on limitations from having it on your motherboard, and having antennas on the back means different performance than having a separate station.

 

8 hours ago, Alphasus said:

This is also a thing. I keep switching CPUs because the 4590 is just as fast as the 6500 for $20 less, still works with stock cooler, and has cheaper motherboards. That will also let you drop a 1060 in. It includes a USB 3 wifi card, which won't take up a mobo slot.

http://pcpartpicker.com/list/LGHgwV

PCIe wifi cards tend to perform better than USB variants, so I would not consider it an advantage.

 

5 hours ago, Endersmens said:

I'm going with that mini ITX case you suggested

That is a standard ATX case. Beware that this motherboard limits flexibility when upgrading later on.

[Endersmens]

9 hours ago, Camacha said:

It would probably pay to look into your options when it comes to a wireless connection. Having a separate card means different options on limitations from having it on your motherboard, and having antennas on the back means different performance than having a separate station.

 

PCIe wifi cards tend to perform better than USB variants, so I would not consider it an advantage.

 

That is a standard ATX case. Beware that this motherboard limits flexibility when upgrading later on.

yes, I kept the standard case because I knew I might want to upgrade to ATX with SLI at some point. But I can't afford a second card right now, and I can't even really afford a mobo with SLI. So I figured if I ever want SLI I'll chuck the extra $100 for a new motherboard. Keep in mind this will probably be >2 years down the road. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Endersmens

[Elthy]

Forget about SLI. Its afaik not possible with the 1060 at all, also only usefull with the best single gpu, and lastly it will loose lots of support with DX12.

[Endersmens]

2 minutes ago, Elthy said:

Forget about SLI. Its afaik not possible with the 1060 at all, also only usefull with the best single gpu, and lastly it will loose lots of support with DX12.

SLI is likely disabled on the 3GB version of the 1060. Everything I've read says the 1060 6GB has SLI.

[Camacha]

39 minutes ago, Endersmens said:

SLI is likely disabled on the 3GB version of the 1060. Everything I've read says the 1060 6GB has SLI.

The golden rule is that you SLI/Crossfire right away, or you do not at all. In two years time, you will buy a single card that outperforms a GTX1060 SLI setup, for a quarter of the power and probably the same price or less. Not to mention shoddy support for old SLI setups.

I feel you are really eager to buy now, and therefore make choices that will cost you more money for a suboptimal results in the end.

[Endersmens]

Just now, Camacha said:

The golden rule is that you SLI/Crossfire right away, or you do not at all. In two years time, you will buy a single card that outperforms a GTX1060 SLI setup, for a quarter of the power and probably the same price or less. Not to mention shoddy support for old SLI setups.

I feel you are really eager to buy now, and therefore make choices that will cost you more money for a suboptimal results in the end.

I am eager to buy what I already have set up. What is the problem with this build, besides the fact that you don't really like built in wireless cards? Will the build not work for my purposes? THe SLI was just a dream anyways, i'll probably never use/need it.

[Alphasus]

2 minutes ago, Endersmens said:

I am eager to buy what I already have set up. What is the problem with this build, besides the fact that you don't really like built in wireless cards? Will the build not work for my purposes? THe SLI was just a dream anyways, i'll probably never use/need it.

Just make sure that you have a 240 GB BX-200, 16 GB RAM, and WiFi.

[Camacha]

Just now, Endersmens said:

I am eager to buy what I already have set up. What is the problem with this build, besides the fact that you don't really like built in wireless cards?

You keep talking about upgrading things you are buying now later. If you do it right now, you do not need to upgrade for a whole lot more money later. If you buy something, do it right. If you do not want to spend the money now, make sure you can spend it later and end up with a proper result.

If you ask me, a small motherboard constricts your choices down the line, but if you are absolutely positive you will not need the flexibility, why not? It is just that I have seen people shift opinions once too often.