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[0.21] Hooligan Labs - Airship, Submarines and More

Hooligan Labs

By Hooligan Labs
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Hooligan Labs

Hooligan Labs

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I've already modified my configs and am happy to keep doing so, but I thought there might be other players that appreciate it.

Can you share the values you used?

Are my calculations or assumptions way off somewhere? I've been known to lose an order of magnitude from time to time.

I am concerned about realism, the only concession I am willing to make is the rate at which envelope inflate... I would rather not have them take hours or days to reach full size.

Calculations should be straight from first principles... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy#Forces_and_equilibrium

I will pull up my calculations soon.

Ah, so that's what that is, kind of like an enhanced Obliterator. :)

What exactly do you mean by "was lost"? Can't be used any longer because things work differently now? You overwrote it and no longer have it?

The later.

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Hooligan Labs

Hooligan Labs

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Having said that, if I did need to send a crash log to a mod developer, how would I go about doing it? I don't think posting it in a forum post would be prudent and/or possible, lol.

Good to hear that you may have found the problem, Raptor9. http://pastebin.com/ is a good way of sharing, or if you find the relative part of the log you can just copy those few lines.

Meanwhile, I have given more consideration to the post by SchroedingersHat. It appears that, in KSP, air density is measured in kg while weight is measured in metric tons. That means that buoyancy is off by three orders of magnitude. That's embarrassing.

This is my thought... I can adjust the plugin to appropriately reflect this discrepancy, so buoyancy will be realistic. Also, I can release the Ray and Cirrus with new models that are 10x10x10 times larger so the volume will be appropriate for the amount of lift.

However, we then must consider how much these things will weigh. The nerf will make all of them unable to lift their own weight. Their weight previously was based on the numbers that Ludo originally had and I never looked much more into. While they may have graphene skins, what of the compressors and power supplies?

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KhaosCorp

KhaosCorp

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I like to keep a fair amount of realism in my KSP, so I kinda like the idea of new huge envelopes with compressors n such. But at the same time there has to be a certain level of playability maintained. Giant airships work great for Kerbin, but can they still be deployed from a base a reasonable size for rocket travel to other planets? If the envelope buoyance is made realistic for Kerbin how is that going to translate to usage on other planets.

Maybe airship envelopes based on real physics, and a separate line of 'for space use' envelopes based on some lighter-than-air kerbal style physics(read:current cirrus=P).

Just a thought, cant wait to see what happens next...:cool:

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rifter

rifter

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You could always just increase the atmospheric density by 3 orders of magnitude, or decrease the mass of all parts by the same :wink:

Edited by rifter
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Naten

Naten

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use grammar!

Geez. Have some respect for those who can't. I think Tjitte is from a different country than you. I doubt they talk like that inside the TARDIS. Also, 'use grammar!' is not proper grammar.:huh:

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Mołot

Mołot

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Uploaded some small landing legs with SQUID!

You can add the mod to most anything but wheels by copying the module from the .cfg file.

Be warned, those small legs snap off rather easily...

Thank you, thank you, that will make my life easier. And now I can diff cfg files and see what I did wrong :D

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SchroedingersHat

SchroedingersHat

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Meanwhile, I have given more consideration to the post by SchroedingersHat. It appears that, in KSP, air density is measured in kg while weight is measured in metric tons. That means that buoyancy is off by three orders of magnitude. That's embarrassing.

This is my thought... I can adjust the plugin to appropriately reflect this discrepancy, so buoyancy will be realistic. Also, I can release the Ray and Cirrus with new models that are 10x10x10 times larger so the volume will be appropriate for the amount of lift.

However, we then must consider how much these things will weigh. The nerf will make all of them unable to lift their own weight. Their weight previously was based on the numbers that Ludo originally had and I never looked much more into. While they may have graphene skins, what of the compressors and power supplies?

The way I've been playing since I noticed and actually started to use the airships (and it needs tweaking, I haven't really used it much) is to divide your lift volumes by 100 and your masses by 10.

How are you calculating your volumes? Dividing by 1000 intuitively seems a bit much.

My empirical measurement of Hecto (I got a kerbal out and walked to the other end of it) rates it as fairly close to 24x24x12m (improved slightly from my previous estimate, also I've yet to figure out the order of all the numbers in the cfgs... I think it's scale * original numbers * 1.25 = 2.32*4.01*1.25=1.16 which is pretty close to my estimate for half of its height). The missing corners are approx 2/9ths of the volume giving me 5380 m^3 meaning it lifts roughly 5.9t if it's full of vacuum (or ~ 11/15ths or 13/15ths for He and H2 respectively).

It had 480 in the cfg file initially, I divided them all by 100 and now it does lift approximately 5t. Where'd the other order of magnitude go?

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Tommygun

Tommygun

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I think if you make everything larger by a factor of ten, then building with them in the hanger is going to be increasingly difficult.

Maybe just double their sizes? The physics in KSP does not completely line up to the real world to begin with.

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Hooligan Labs

Hooligan Labs

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If it was in any of the previously published packages, I have a bunch, unless you lost something as of yet unreleased. :)

Was not released... ;.;

I've noticed that there is quite the gap between the ray and cirrus in lift. Are you planning a new design to fill the gap?

No such plans.

What happens when you travel out of range of the game physics of an airship with another craft or Kerbal? Will the airship disintegrate?

Unless the vehicle is landed it will be destroyed in the atmosphere. We have attempted work-arounds but they tend to completely glitch out the vessel. I talked to the devs about it, it may get fixed when they change the save system.

Thank you, thank you, that will make my life easier. And now I can diff cfg files and see what I did wrong :D

:cool:

My empirical measurement of Hecto (I got a kerbal out and walked to the other end of it)... giving me 5380 m^3...

That is a quite a bit bigger than my estimate.

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Geschosskopf

Geschosskopf

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I did not expect to see so much love for the little envelopes! Instead I may put in some magic factor which can be removed in the CFG for more realistic buoyancy... once we figure out what that is. :)

I really enjoy the airships as-is, my only wish being to talk you into making an enlarge Ray to fill the gap between it and the Circus ;).

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SchroedingersHat

SchroedingersHat

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That part does seem right. Your volume seems excessive.

How'd you come by your estimates of volume? I'd gather yours would be more accurate than mine considering you have the models

By the way, full of vacuum? :sticktongue:

Vacuum is totally a thing, where else does zero point energy come from? ^_^

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KhaosCorp

KhaosCorp

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Yall are scaring me a bit with all this true to earth physics. Realism is great....for reality. We need true to kerbal physics!!! =P

What ever happens I will always use (and love) my airships...

I just hope we don't have to say good bye to this:

okQ5PeJ.png

heh, told ya the other one was small scale test =P

FYI: that's storage for 192k units of kethane and 3 large drills, and they can all KAS together once on the ground.

Edited by KhaosCorp
hehehe
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Hooligan Labs

Hooligan Labs

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Yall are scaring me a bit with all this true to earth physics. Realism is great....for reality. We need true to kerbal physics!!! =P

... FYI: that's storage for 192k units of kethane and 3 large drills, and they can all KAS together once on the ground.

Maybe two settings: Ludo (as they work now, based on the original code) and Earthlike (as we are discussing). We don't want to ruin fine work like this. :)

We're going to need a lot of sticks.

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SchroedingersHat

SchroedingersHat

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The dimensions are roughly based on the part models themselves, with 1 unit = about 1 meter. Scale is REALLY hard to figure out exactly in KSP. Someone make a ruler part.

There's a factor of 1.25 that turns up a lot of the time (a 1x1x1 cube will be 1.25m in each direction and 1.25^3 is about 2 so that accounts for some of the discrepancy, but there's still a big difference). You can also just put a probe core on one end of your object and walk a kerbal to the other side. Hovering over the core will give you your current distance. This is what I did to get my measurements of Hecto; I eyeballed the exact shape to estimate the difference between it and a rectangular prism, but I don't think I'd be out by more than 30%.

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Eric S

Eric S

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There's a factor of 1.25 that turns up a lot of the time

Just to make it obvious when that turns up, the default rescaleFactor is 1.25 so if you don't specify one, that's what you get. That happened when they added EVA to the game, and they needed to scale everything up so that it would look like a kerbal could actually fit inside the 1-man capsule. Specify a rescaleFactor of 1, and you get what you expect if you didn't know what the default was.

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SchroedingersHat

SchroedingersHat

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Just to make it obvious when that turns up, the default rescaleFactor is 1.25 so if you don't specify one, that's what you get.

I was aware of the origin, but I didn't know about overriding it with a value of 1. Now I only need to learn when it applies to nodes (I think it might be never, even if you specify them in the model.)

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