For (even better) science!

[pg17]

*disclaimer*: this is going to be a very long post concerning the science gameplay, my experience of it and the things that I think would make it even better. I might cover subjects already talked about in other topics, but everything being somewhat tied together, I feel the need to draw the big picture of what science could become.

Before the main piece, let me say that "For Science!" was really what I was waiting for (in terms of features, progression, challenge and fixes / improvements) before going back to the game after early access release. The team did a amazing job and made KSP fun again for me despite the remaining issues and all the work still needed. So much so, that I've officially beaten my KSP1 playtime and gone way further into the game!

 

A - Science should be more educative

I feel there is a missed opportunity here. A big part of KSP is learning interesting stuff and getting a grasp of how things really work (in a delicate balance between a realistic enough simulation so that you get the concepts but fun enough that it doesn't feel like a real rocket scientist job nor qualify you for it ).
For context, in KSP1, I personally hated the mystery goo because it felt to me like the "unrealistic" / "sci-fi" experiment. So, while I get the idea that having a science part for each kind of sensors (thermometer, barometer, anemometer, ...) might be too much, I would really like to have some "real" (in the game world context) data show up.

So yeah...  you can tell me the "Science Junior" is a bundled weather station that does several type of experiments at once and give me a fun and yet interesting text reports attached to the overall experiment, but please:

• Give me real sensors and instruments (seismograph, spectrograph, radars, lidars, ...) and give me the numbers / data that goes with them because I would love to learn the range of temperature on the Mun, how big the earthquakes are on Pols on the Richter Scale, or how hard the wind blows on Eve... or Jool!
• Make me learn what kind of other interesting experiments and data real world scientists are after!

 

B - Science could be more immersive

I think it would be more immersive, more interesting and more challenging if science was better tied to gameplay in addition to being a currency.
Let's say at the beginning of the game we have only sparse and imprecise data on the planets and moons (less than we have now in the tracking station) :

• First we could launch and run the first experiments in Kerbin low orbit and we would learn the Kerbin inclination (about that... it would be nice to able to see the inclination of planets in the map with a line going through the planet, the equator line, and our current angle relative to one of them), then do the same in high Kerbin orbit and learn if a Geostationary orbit is possible and what the Altitude and Speed needed are, and those informations would be permanently added to the map (or to "The Science Diary", see below).
• A bit latter down the line and I want to go to Eve. Now, I could go blind, or I could send a probe with the proper experiments to learn what the temperature and pressure are to select the most appropriate parts for my next mission, and to see if my Kerbals would survive the trip.
• Time to go to Jool? Maybe running that radioactivity experiment would be wise before sending that big ship (if we had environmental hazards for sensitive electronic or needed to shield Kerbals from high levels or radiations *wink wink*).
• Wanna go on Eeloo? Oh, did we forgot to tell you? We only have a rough estimate of it's gravity, it's in the range [0.05-0.2], maybe you should send a probe with an accelerometer to measure it before trying to land Kerbals on it!

This kind of mechanics would have the added bonus to bring the opportunity for more missions both to guide the player in what experiments serve what purpose and also in its overall exploration of space.

 

C - I need the "Keri Diary of Science"!

Ok, all those experiments are greats! But there is a lot of different types, lots of biomes and lot of bodies (the astrophysical kind, not the Kerbal kind... although... ). I'm tier 3 and I'm starting to get lost on what I did and what I didn't do.
Doing a mission in KSP takes time, and there is a lot you can do, so doing a mission to realize half way through it that you've already done that experiment in that very place is a real bummer (and one reason to get bored out of the game).

So, what we need is a journal to track our progress, plan our missions and re-read those reports we forgot to read because we where so happy and eager to clic on that "send" button!
It could be a panel that can be deployed in the tracking station when checking a body characteristics.
It would contain a section for each kind of "place" (high orbit, low orbit, atmosphere, surface, undewater), an entry for each kind of biomes, and sub-entries for each type of experiments. Some of them would be grayed out or invisible so we don't get any spoiler beyond the obvious ones (high and low orbit would always be presents, atmosphere would be visible for the obvious one like Duna or Eve, experiments would not be visible until you've unlocked the corresponding parts, biomes would not be visible until you have encountered / entered them once).
They could also contain a picture (so you know how to visually identify the biome once you've unlocked it).
And of course, once the experiment has been collected back to KSC, it would display the report/results.

It would also have the added benefit to motivate the completionists into even more missions and game time \o/ (though I suspect the hardcore ones are already tracking all that by hand ).
And it would do so, even if the science points where not useful anymore to their progression because everything is unlocked.

It would be also nice to have the ability to map the biomes like what the "Orbital Survey" mod do (and maybe map other things like "illumination" to find those places in semi-permanent shadow or light for our future colonies, now that we have axis tilt!).

Also, surface waypoints/markers please! *pleading*

 

D - Various things in unspecific order:

•  I think the "robotic arm sample" and the "Kerbal sample" shouldn't have the same value to have an incentive to send Kerbals (think a vial of dust vs a bag full of rocks). Overall I haven't really felt the need to send any Kerbal in space over robotic missions (aside from when a mission asked me too and between tier 3 and 4 with the 1st version of orbital lab) . I'm sure some will make the argument that it is realistic, but I feel like sending Kerbals in dangerous situation is part of the fun, and the approach "robotic" first as pathfinders and "manned" next as more thorough exploration feels better. Now, I suspect this might be addressed with colonies and then later with resources.
• In the same spirit, I think there shouldn't always be a robotic version of the experiments (like the diving bell), or there should be a big tradeoff (like with the robotic version of the orbital lab) either in resources (electricity, number of science points, ...) or weight or volume (maybe the automated version should sometimes be bigger). 
• Also, the robotic arm needs to be smarter (or configurable) in the way it can deploys to do the sampling so we can give him vertical orientation for example.
• The orbital science lab should at the very least have a separate "deploy" option, so it can stay deployed and resume experiment immediately when triggered.
• Ideally, I think the orbital science lab (especially the habited one) should be able to buffer more than one experiment at a time and automatically resume progress when switching biomes. Otherwise I don't see how you could ever do the Kerbin's "beach biome" for example.
• I get the idea to unlock science parts progressively (incentive to make more missions instead of only one big "mother of all experiments") and to scale science points given by experiments according to difficulty/reachability. But the tier of first unlock should also play a role in the points given. Having 16 points for the radioactivity experiment on Kerbin when at that point in the tree any unlock is in the 1.5k range feels utterly useless. At least something in the 80-160 range would make you feel like it would help you gather the points your are missing for the next unlock.
• Kerbol (the star, not the sytem) needs some love guys! I was really disappointed to have my cheap (can't get too close without radiators *wink wink*) "Parker Solar Probe" not being able to gather any science, even in low orbit, with the "Science Junior". Also, I'll say it there: with it's static surface and lack of solar filaments, Kerbol is visually... underwhelming, compared to what many other games can achieve regarding stars.
• Having the atmospheric science part makes me hope for either Inflatables Parts (for balloons and airships) and Rotors/Propellers (like "Ingenuity" on Mars).
• I like the automatic transfert / cloning of science experiments & samples, but I personally fix the limit at "while I can imagine the manned capsule having inside storage, those probe core sure does feel like they have internal memory for reports but doesn't feel like they have a container for the physical samples". Thus I would advocate for "Sample Container" Part that would be needed unless you have a capsule / cockpit.
• Also, regarding transfert. I know it happens through port docking, but let's say I'm flying a tiny drone in Duna atmosphere to gather the atmospheric samples, then flying it back near my return rocket with Bob waiting there. I could "eject" the probe core and have it being "parachuted" down near Bob (instead of having to dock a mini airplane onto a lander which is... much harder). I didn't see any option that would allow Bob to retrieve the experiments from the probe on the ground. Did I miss something ?

 

E - Prospective: Science complexity & balance

Ok... this is probably going to be the more controversial subject, and probably something that should only come in the distant future or in a mod (if ever). And don't forget that many of the arguments (around balancing some aspects of the game) that I will make here, might be addressed through colonies and resource gathering further down the line.

I think it would be interesting to add complexity that could be tied to specific Parts / Experiments in the mid to late game in terms of experiment timeframes and coverages. 

In term of timeframe we could have:

• Short term experiments like what we have right now,
• Surveys like monitoring temperatures over a full day / night cycle or a full orbital revolution. It would bring specific challenges like being able to power something up for a full Mun day/night cycle or having to keep a permanent CommNet connection with Eeloo for nearly 20 years (assuming survey reports are too big to be stored in the vehicle and need to be streamed back continuously).

In term of coverage we could have:

• Single "on the spot" sample like what we have right now
• Multiple outspread samples with minimal distance between them like putting 3 seismograph running at the same time in the same biome with a minimal separation distance of say 100km to do some kind of triangulation or having to collect 10 samples in a concentric circle around your first one in order to have reliable data and validate the experiment. It would incite players to be creative with rovers or efficient lander designs you can send in batches, etc...
• Full (or close to it) surface mapping of bodies or areas (ex: 80% of a specific biome) like a lidar survey that would require players to have a satellite in polar orbit or a specific orbit like the equatorial ridge of Dres.

Of course you could match timeframes and coverages for even more challenges!

 

That's all folks!  If you read this, thank you very much for taking the time, you are one brave soul !

TL:DR : Science is great but could be even better! More educative / instructive, better tied to gameplay and engineering challenges, with proper tracking and planning, and finally maybe a bit more challenging.

[Planterium]

This is actually a really good suggestion, how are people not noticing this?

[kedrednael]

I also desired the science in KSP 2 to be more like you describe.
I thought SCANSAT mod was a beautiful example of where science should go. Suddenly and naturally some specific polar orbits with certain periods are necessary. That is cool emergent gameplay, with relevant data! And it still allows for kerbalish science message too.

One thing I'd love for example is if you have a pressure sensor, you can log the pressure for the altitude you are at. This builds up the graph of atmospheric pressure while you descent or ascent with the device. So if you choose to land on Eve highlands for example, you have not collected the pressure for lower altitudes, this very naturally gives the desire to go to the lowest place possible to find out the pressure there and collect all the science. Perhaps a seperate science message for different altitudes can be made up.
 

[rayoyrayo]

Your post is really well thought out and I think should be paid attention to. The idea of setting up multiple experiments on for example three separate mountain tops over x meters in height is awesome.

 

I have nothing to add. Hopefully devs read 

[Oak7603]

I agree with all of this. A and B should have been in For Science! at the start and I'm not sure why ithey weren't. C you can get from the Science Arkive mod, but why is it not in game? I would add to D, the ability for Kerbals to collect the samples from the robotic arm and other science parts as currently they are locked in there until the craft docks with another craft that has a kerbal in it. Thats autonomous rovers with a lot of science that they may not be able to give up. And with E, having some sort of Satellite Scan option would cover all that, as well as finding POI's that could then be 'scienced'.

[pg17]

On 1/18/2024 at 7:57 PM, kedrednael said:

This builds up the graph of atmospheric pressure while you descent or ascent with the device.

In game graphs and charts that gets completed through experiments would be awesome. I wasn't sure about suggesting it, because adding a whole data visualization system seemed like a lot of work on top of what I already suggested, but I would love it ^^

On 1/19/2024 at 4:08 AM, rayoyrayo said:

Your post is really well thought out and I think should be paid attention to.

Thank you very much 

On 1/19/2024 at 4:08 PM, Oak7603 said:

C you can get from the Science Arkive mod, but why is it not in game?

I didn't knew about that one, thanks for pointing me in the right direction (for now... because I agree with you, I still think this should be in the base game). 

[Sammys Stuffs]

I agree with everything except B. That feels like tedium just for the sake of tedium. It might make for a fun optional difficulty option but it would really narrow the scope of an early science mode playthrough, and not in a fun way. Especially repeat playthroughs would be bogged down. A is a must have for me though. It's so disappointing to do an experiment only to feel like it was less tangible than the science in 1. Even the mystery goo, which is a play on the weather rock joke felt like it would teach SOMETHING vs all these intangible push button get points KSP 2 parts.

[pg17]

On 1/21/2024 at 7:42 AM, Sammys Stuffs said:

I agree with everything except B. That feels like tedium just for the sake of tedium. It might make for a fun optional difficulty option but it would really narrow the scope of an early science mode playthrough, and not in a fun way.

The way I see it, it would be non blocking (meaning you could do the same things you can currently do, it wouldn't magically prevent you from landing anywhere for exemple), it's just that instead of getting most of the advance knowledge from the wiki (some of the knowledge I talk about isn't currently visible in the game, though that could change), you would get the option to learn it through the game with science experiments, and it would need to be balance in a way as to not prevent players (especially new comers) from experimenting things by the "trial and error" method while allowing advanced players to better "plan ahead" and optimize their missions even more.

That being said, I wouldn't mind at all this being a difficulty option. It would have the additional benefit of allowing the player to optout of discovering everything again in an ulterior playthrough. And even if you don't activate the option in your first playthrough, chances are you won't visit, check and remember data for every system and every planets or moons so you would still have knowledge to "discover" in a new playthrough should you decide to activate it then.

[kedrednael]

On 1/20/2024 at 6:03 PM, pg17 said:

In game graphs and charts that gets completed through experiments would be awesome. I wasn't sure about suggesting it, because adding a whole data visualization system seemed like a lot of work on top of what I already suggested, but I would love it ^^

Yeah it does sound like a lot of work. But I was just shocked how SCANSAT got implemented in KSP2 already. That's even complicated than these graphs, though quite similar to program I imagine (location unlocks part of graph).

[Emanuel01]

Now this is a science system worth the 2.0 tag. The current one is a 1.3 at best. I really wish what we currently have  isn’t the final version

Edited January 23 by Emanuel01