SLS or Constellation?

[czokletmuss]

Ah yes, but we could use the moon as a solar panel farm, we could use it to observe things, since it has no asmostsphere.

Err, doesn't the ISS has quite a lot solar panels without any farm (surface, soil, ground)? And we can observe things from telescopes on orbit or in L-points, why land them?

[Rune]

And there you go ;-)

The point of my comment about comparisons, is that in Human history, people voluntarily migrate for only one reason: to improve their wealth, their comfort or their safety. It is part of human nature because we are a nomadic species. We will go where the food and shelter is.

In the past, colonization was only possible because it was funded by governments as a means to increase their wealth (and therefore power) through trade, or by individuals who were seeking to find a "better life", but those destinations always had in common the perceived promises of food and shelter once they got there.

Space provides neither wealth, nor comfort, nor safety. There is no food, no shelter, no living off the land and not even any breathing without life support. You are totally reliant on supplies from home and technology. I don't want to be around when the conditions on Earth make living in a -60°C radioactive desert with only CO2 to breath a "better life".

And you are doing biased comparisons again. There even more examples of technological dead ends that went nowhere or were simply bad ideas: Dirigeables, daisywheel printers, insane medical treatments, nuclear cars, the Segway...

We tend to take note of our successes but forget all the failures that we have left on the side of the road. Space tourism might end up being as much a bad idea as the Ford Nucleon or time travel.

However, I don't doubt that we are going to improve the cost of getting to orbit. I think that reusable spacecraft are promising (I hope SpaceX delivers a reusable Falcon one day), but the amount of energy required to get to orbit will always be prohibitive and I don't think spaceflight will ever be a recreational activity for the masses.

Yeah, I saw that coming while I was writing ^^'. But then I thought, if he can ("...in Human history..."), why not me? As long as I don't mention the Mayflower and pilgrims (I had in mind the Vikings when I mentioned the first Atlantic crossing), I should be OK. Yeah, we are nomads. But first of all, we are curious monkeys: we try stuff to see what happens.

As to space being hostile: Duh. But so is 90% of Earth, without technology, to naked primates. And with enough technology, you can literally re-build you favourite place in the middle of the sky. If I leave Earth (and I don't mean me personally, though I would like to), I want to go somewhere better, with a climate I choose, a gravity I choose, and as much room as I choose. If you don't get it yet, I'm talking about free-floating rotating space colonies. So any comment about temperature or surface pressure is irrelevant: I choose those to suit my needs.

As to abandoned technologies: you are making my point for me. Yeah, we abandoned blimps, but that is because nowadays we fly in planes, or helicopters. We still fly. Land transportation still happens even if a lot of land vehicles were bad ideas, like nuclear cars (it seems, however, that we are on the verge of electric cars, and if the electricity came from nuclear plants... but I digress). Space tourism is not a technology, it's an idea waiting for the right technology to implement it. So is human expansion beyond Earth. Reusable rockets may be the solution (I personally believe they could bring the cost down by considerably more than an order of magnitude), or they might not be. But then, that just means we have to come up with something else to make it happen. Like using transistors instead of vacuum tubes (or abacus) to perform complicated calculations.

And at some point, I have no doubt someone will come up with a material suitable for a space elevator (nothing in physics is against it, and we have promising candidates, even), and then we are set: importing materials to Earth becomes a source of energy, and exporting people something trivial.

Rune. Now let's see what other people wrote. This is a popular thread!

Edited April 22, 2013 by Rune

[Rune]

You clearly have many ideas, and I commend that. Don't stop dreaming them up.

However, DO stop sharing every single one of them without research. If you aren't sure, google and wikipedia usually have the answer. Sadly chances are it either isn't feasible, or has been done before or can be done better already.

When you have a decent idea which is possible and has not been done before that may require us to go to the moon as opposed to LEO stations or Earth, then we'll gladly hear it!

+1. Yeah, uninformed support can be worse for the cause, sometimes. But I stick by Tsiolkovsky's words: "The Earth is the cradle of humanity, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever." Considering how expansive and plague-like our species is, we have little choice anyway.

Rune. It might be selfish, but I root for us.

[Rune]

In numbers far higher than there would ever be payloads available for an orbital rocket, with a manufacturing process that resulted in a 50% failure rate, with literal slave labour, and still for several million pounds a unit. Rockets are never going to be easy to manufacture, that's the main issue.

Hey, it was the middle of a war, and slave labour actively sabotaging the production, as you say. It's quite amazing it worked as well as it did. I'm sure the T-model production line was similarly primitive compared to the ones Honda on Chrysler has today. We won't get to the rocketry equivalent of a 2013 car production line if we don't keep at it, and fail considerably along the way.

Payloads... well, humans are plentiful. But I must confess I am more interested in bringing stuff back, people can be grown elsewhere.

Rune. I've often been accused of looking out too far ahead. But I already gave my opinion on the present state of affairs.

[NASAFanboy]

But I stick by Tsiolkovsky's words: "The Earth is the cradle of humanity, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever." Considering how expansive and plague-like our species is, we have little choice anyway.

Rune. It might be selfish, but I root for us.

Someone sees my point.

Rooting for our speices is not selfishness, it is our civic duty. Our duty in life is to re-produce and expand our race, as it is the only intelligent life we know, and we hold lots and lot of potiental for the future.

[czokletmuss]

Rooting for our speices is not selfishness, it is our civic duty. Our duty in life is to re-produce and expand our race, as it is the only intelligent life we know, and we hold lots and lot of potiental for the future.

I like this quote from Tsiolkovsky but I would argue whether this is our duty. Who says who? Who can enforce it? Who wants it anyways? In a universe with hundreds of bilions of galaxies we're hardly the only intelligent specie. Space exploration is a noble goal but I wouldn't say that this is a duty in any way.

[N_las]

There is only a short periode of time on earth, were we have enough energy (oil, coal, uran) and enough resources (metals) to andvandce our civilization. Rigth now we are in the middle of this phase. We have to develop now, to be prepared for the time afterwards.

If there aren't any useful metals left on earth, how will you build the rockets to mine asteroids? If there isn't any energy available, how do we harvest the energies of space (like uran in asteroids)?

We have to develop spaceflight now. Our children will be forever thankfull, because they won't have the capabilities anymore to do it themselves.

[metaphor]

I am willing to do ANYTHING for our manned spaceflight program, from committing suicide to starting a riot.

As of now, the best thing you or anyone else can do to promote human space exploration is to write or call your Senator or Representative and tell them you want more NASA funding. This is a lot more powerful than people think it is.

[NASAFanboy]

As of now, the best thing you or anyone else can do to promote human space exploration is to write or call your Senator or Representative and tell them you want more NASA funding. This is a lot more powerful than people think it is.

I already wrote to them. I preach the benifts of space exploration and colonization to my friends/anyone who will listen. I am a member of the Mars Society and Planetary Society. I volunteer for the Mars Society. I am applying for a undergraduate internship at NASA. I'm just throwing my entire life into it.

By the way, have you happen to come across a liquid fuel rocket engine on e-bay? I need one.

[B787_300]

1. Nice, im in florida to become an aerospace engineer, im a sophmore in College

2. Why do you want a liquid fuel rocket engine?

[NASAFanboy]

1. Nice, im in florida to become an aerospace engineer, im a sophmore in College

2. Why do you want a liquid fuel rocket engine?

You see, I have grand ambitions. Very grand ambitions.

I still wish my dad would let me build a mockup of a Martian Habitat in my backyard, but yet agian, I live in Michigan (My friends at this point want to deport me to Florida. They say I'm obessed with Space more than an acholic is to beer.)

[Panichio]

I think SLS benefits more missions in the long run, and excuse my likely ignorance, but I don't see what use there is with the moon anyway.

[Nibb31]

You see, I have grand ambitions. Very grand ambitions.

I still wish my dad would let me build a mockup of a Martian Habitat in my backyard, but yet agian, I live in Michigan (My friends at this point want to deport me to Florida. They say I'm obessed with Space more than an acholic is to beer.)

A little bit of advice, friend. If you want to find a job at NASA, you might want to tone down the extremism and obsession when you are talking to adults who might be experts in the field. Throwing tantrums, inventing theories without doing any basic research, or yelling "I'm obsessed", "I could commit suicide or cause a riot for the cause" or "I lol at your stupidity", won't earn you brownie points in an industry that is looking for highly-competent rational level-headed people with a scientific or technical background.

It's good to be enthusiastic, but if you want to promote space without being an embarrassment to your cause, you are going to have to quit the obsessive ambitions, do your homework about science and technology, and be humble. You've got to accept that most of the people you are going to talk to know more about sciency stuff than you do. I suggest that you spend a little more time learning about sciences (not just space) and epistemology. Be curious and set yourself up to ask questions and learn instead of pretending that you know everything.

PS. You won't find liquid rocket engines on eBay. Playing with rocket fuel in your backyard is dangerous business. With your level of knowledge, you will likely blow your head off.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Nibb31

[Kryten]

PS. You won't find liquid rocket engines on eBay.

Actually you do find these on eBay occasionally. Full engine with turbopump, Soviet military surplus, not deactivated. Only $3500. Oh, and you need red fuming nitric acid to fuel it, which is every bit as nasty as it sounds.

[NASAFanboy]

I saw most of of my suggestions in a documentary called Living on the Moon.

[Nibb31]

There is a lot of crap on TV. It is usually either dumbed down for the average American audience or sentationalized to increase ratings. You really shouldn't use History Channel documentaries or TV in general to learn about science.

Start with Wikipedia, and follow the links to the source material in the Reference sections. Be curious, you will learn a lot.

[Canopus]

You see, I have grand ambitions. Very grand ambitions

If you think you could build something like a rocket then you are wrong.

[The Jedi Master]

SLS, simply because it's more viable and it would replace the space shuttle.

[Kryten]

Replace it in what way? It's not planned to do any of the same things.

[B787_300]

i mean the space shuttle was a LEO bus, its designed to get a lot of stuff into orbit in a mostly reusabe package

[Rune]

Actually you do find these on eBay occasionally. Full engine with turbopump, Soviet military surplus, not deactivated. Only $3500. Oh, and you need red fuming nitric acid to fuel it, which is every bit as nasty as it sounds.

Holy crap, that is scary. You really can just buy that? As a private citizen? Turbopump, thrust vectoring, igniter, digital control system... that is a very advanced and complicated engine. I would love to take one of those apart! But I would be very, very careful about fueling it, or lighting it. As in "only under expert supervision", and I'm studying to build that short of stuff.

Rune. You would think that's the kind of thing that falls under ITAR.

[Kryten]

Here's the eBay listing. Recommended as a museum piece, but that's explicitly for liability reasons; it definitely wasn't deactivated. It's 1957 technology, so I don't think even ITAR would apply, and it's internal US so no awkward questions at customs. Would have some trouble getting some of the ingredients for that fuel mixture without ending up on a watchlist though.

EDIT: Had a look through that eBay category ('complete engines'). No more rockets, but did find a working jet engine with afterburner. Including this gem;

Possible Uses:[...]-Go Karts[...]

Edited April 23, 2013 by Kryten

[NASAFanboy]

Holy crap, that is scary. You really can just buy that? As a private citizen? Turbopump, thrust vectoring, igniter, digital control system... that is a very advanced and complicated engine. I would love to take one of those apart! But I would be very, very careful about fueling it, or lighting it. As in "only under expert supervision", and I'm studying to build that short of stuff.

Rune. You would think that's the kind of thing that falls under ITAR.

That was the main reason I wanted it. But I was hoping for a small one, for a model rocket.

I decided on the SLS. Because, apparently, NASA and Bigelow have signed a contract, that have a pretty high chance of leading to Commerical Moonbases. I can imagine NASA ferrying people to hte moon using Golden Spike landers to a Commerical Bigelow moonbase.

I like asteriod plan nao.

[Canopus]

Why don't you start with solid fueled model rockets. Higher chance of success and lower chance of blowing up:D

[NASAFanboy]

Why don't you start with solid fueled model rockets. Higher chance of success and lower chance of blowing up:D

I have, but I want to move it to the next level. Happens to me all the time.

When I was a kid, I got bored of my chemistry set and tried to split the atom. I got bored of RC planes, then attached a camera to mine and flew it like a drone. I got bored of ballons, so I bought a weather ballon.