Challenge: An aircraft capable of flight... using ion engines.

[Ryu Gemini]

We, the Society of People Who Hate Overly Noisy Rockets, are tired of the Kerbal Space Center constantly launching their gigantic, noisy rockets! We are trying to get rest and you whippersnappers always go about ruining that day in and day out. Especially when they randomly EXPLODE right over our home. From what we hear, there are quieter (and less explosive) engines out there. I don't care if they ARE some form of voodoo witchcraft, anything is better then waking up to giant orange shards of metal splitting our building in half!

We thusly submit to you a challenge that even if difficult, should be possible. Create an aircraft capable of flying as far and/or high as possible, using ion engines only. Aside from initial boosts which may be provided by other sources up to 1km (rockets, carrier craft, rover wheels, whatever). I mean, it may just be impossible to actually do the take-off itself with ion alone.

For rules/challenge points, lets see.

As said, you may use any power source to get the thing into the air to begin with, as long as that source is out of the equation before you get up to 1k height. You may use mod parts (a better electrical power source comes to mind, like a bigger nuclear generator or wings that have solar panels built into them), so long as they are balanced. Try to minimize whatever effects are involved with that glide glitch too, if that is still present.

Further challenges if you want extra kudos.

100 pts: Use only stock parts

1-50 pts: Get to 1k altitude (stacks). So basically, if you reach 23k, you get 23 points. Yeah, that means you can get a point for just boosting yourself up to 1k as allowed, but its easier this way.

25 pts: Get into stable circular orbit of some sort. +25 more pts if you can actually bring some sort of "useful" payload with you and deploy it.

50 pts: Actually take off from the runway using nothing but ion (I mean, it probably is impossible but may as well make it a challenge).

Why do we think its possible? Because of this scrapheap we threw together, which is capable of ALMOST doing it. And by scrapheap I mean a "wow, I stopped making planes that noobish and inefficient after a half dozen or so designs" level of unrefined scrapful wonder. So basically, its an unrefined, likely inefficient scrapheap that also only uses stock parts to boot, and yet it is ALMOST able to stay straight level at low altitudes. And while I don't know the deal with the "infiniglide" glitch or whether it still exists, the design doesn't use any of those canards people always mention, nor am I spinning the thing around or anything during the flight.

The design as shown below basically is: batteries, ion engines, a LOT of those 45/min nuclear generators, a "first stage" of a small tank, rocket and some sepetrons (a stage that reminds me of a wasp's abdomen section), a pair of pairs of wings, a lot of small 6-way cubes that are a pain to deal with, and a bunch of connector struts.

Yeah, not the prettiest bird out there. And laughably made of over 200 parts, many of which are modular cubes and nuclear generators. If you are wondering, "thunderbird 1" was basically the world's most expensive electric car. No really, considering the "cost" of ion engines, these things probably cost more then most of your top 3 most expensive creations put together (well, unless you tried to make an ion plane before).

[foamyesque]

Hard mode: Do it in FAR (and hence no infiniglide).

In stock KSP aerodynamics, well:

Yeah.

[Ryu Gemini]

Sorry, what does FAR stand for? As I mentioned, I don't know much of anything about the infiniglide bug other then the fact that it seems to favor canard wings in some way, and that the couple videos I saw of it involved spinning or barrel rolling a lot. So I also don't know specifically what avoids it.

[ruKush]

FAR is a mod that changes the aerodynamics in KSP making them more realistic. I've never tried it myself but you can find it here if you're curious:

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/ferram-aerospace-research/

[foamyesque]

Sorry, what does FAR stand for? As I mentioned, I don't know much of anything about the infiniglide bug other then the fact that it seems to favor canard wings in some way, and that the couple videos I saw of it involved spinning or barrel rolling a lot. So I also don't know specifically what avoids it.

Infiniglide is a glitch that occurs with control surfaces (and wings) at high angles of attack; they provide thrust. With ASAS you can quite literally fly around the planet without burning a drop of fuel.

[joppiesaus]

Well, I tried it! It took me an hour to reach 3178 m, but I did it! I was bored so I let my bob kerman surfing on my ion plane, and safely crash down in the sea.

so: Stock(100 pts) + 3K(3 pts) = 103 points

Oh and uh I didn't use a starting motor or something. Just Ion engines only. The plane(ION zappy) can easiely take-off, but climbing isn't fast.

Pictures:

Download the craft here!

Edited April 27, 2013 by joppiesaus

[Spartwo]

a bit late,The I215 daylight-top speed of 60 m/s.-take off using only ion.-all stock.-only bothered to get to 1k.-3.4 tons.so 151 points.

the landing gear decouple to reduce weight

also did some calculations I think maximum range is 300km.(not sure)

Edited July 27, 2013 by Spartwo
sorry wrong version

[Jason Patterson]

The solution to infiniglide on a challenge like this is to limit the parts so that control surfaces aren't allowed. A good vehicle for this is going to be lightweight and steerable using command module torque.

[nhnifong]

For those that don't know, infiniglide is the result of the fact that KSP control surfaces apply force without the input of any energy. In real life, control surfaces turn the craft by creating off-center drag.

[numerobis]

The solution to infiniglide on a challenge like this is to limit the parts so that control surfaces aren't allowed.

All wings in KSP violate thermodynamics, creating energy from nothing. Control surfaces are merely more blatant about it.

[Innuce]

Did this back in January. Didn't bother trying to see how high it flies, it's really slow. Kind of like flying a paper airplane!

All stock and Manned (everyone makes unmanned ones). Has RCS only for ground maneuvering.

[Dreadnaught4237]

Hi guys, I've been playing KSP for a a long time but i have just recently joined the forum.

I posted this back in February. Its a plane that flys on just ONE ion engine.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctD2ue4lsQ0

[thereaverofdarkness]

As far as I am aware, getting an ion plane to orbit can't be done. The ion engines appear to have one third of the thrust needed to lift only their own weight from the surface of Kerbin. I don't think the atmosphere extends nearly far enough to get enough lift to use ion engines to get into orbit.

It might be doable from Duna, since the gravity is low enough that the engines could almost lift themselves at the surface. The air doesn't go very high, but it might not have to.

Edited July 24, 2013 by thereaverofdarkness

[sjwt]

*MODERATOR*

Just a note about this challenge, it is only possible using the gliding/lifting bug.

Please update the rules to reflect this fact. Impossible challenges will be closed down.

[Spartwo]

*MODERATOR*

Just a note about this challenge, it is only possible using the gliding/lifting bug.

Please update the rules to reflect this fact. Impossible challenges will be closed down.

no it`s possible

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

*MODERATOR*

Just a note about this challenge, it is only possible using the gliding/lifting bug.

Please update the rules to reflect this fact. Impossible challenges will be closed down.

That's just plain wrong. You should check your facts before saying something like that as a moderator. I've done this in the past and I can say it works just fine. You just need an ultralight plane that can take off at about 30 m/s and you don't need any control surfaces. As long as you use just one engine and solar panels instead of those reactors, your plane will be light enough to take off using only ions. I have an old picture of a plane I flew on Duna that would fly okay on Kerbin as well using only the ion engine. Sadly I've lost the craft so I can't take a video of flying it on Kerbin, but it shouldn't be hard to replicate. It weighs less than a ton so it can take off at around 16 m/s on Kerbin if memory serves.

Edit: ((MOD EDIT)) Please keep all posts civil. Everyone can make a mistake.

Edited July 25, 2013 by sjwt

[sjwt]

I do apologize about not reading the part about allowing boosts, as these kind of challenges have been posted in the past and cause a lot of heated discussions about it.

If you can build a raft that will take off on Kerbin without using the infante glide bug and only powered by an Ion engine, I commend you, please post your craft.

It has also been stated by Many others that the physics behind a 1tone craft taking off with only 500 newtons of thrust do not add up without the gliding bugs.

[numerobis]

This is a couple-month-old challenge, so I don't get the deletion threat; it wasn't particularly civil.

In real-world physics, the requirement to be able to sustain flight for a 1-tonne plane with 0.5 kN of thrust comes down to saying you can get lift of about 10 kN for drag 0.5 kN, a lift:drag ratio of 20:1. Not all powered planes manage this, but it's well within reason.

In KSP physics, the numbers check out: to get to 15 m/s means you need to overcome drag equivalent to having a 1-tonne part at drag coefficient 0.45 -- where the norm is 0.2. And from memory, the lift numbers look about right too (but I never did code up that model, and I might be wrong).

However, any KSP plane that uses any lifting surface is violating the preservation of energy, because the model itself is bugged.

[koshelenkovv]

a bit late,The condor mk 3.-top speed of 60 m/s.-take off using only ion.-all stock.-only bothered to get to 1k.-3.4 tons.so 151 points.

the landing gear decouple to reduce weight

also did some calculations I think maximum range is 300km.(not sure)

You don't need the ions. This plane cen effectively fry only by flapping control surfaces. Mash QE or WS repeatedly and see it accelerating.

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

There you have it. Since it doesn't have any control surfaces, I raise the rear landing gear to take off. It also can't really fly since the pod torque is not strong enough to control the plane.

Also, I like how you edited out my criticism of your moderating skills. I guess some people just can't take feedback. But I'm sure you're still a great moderator even with your flaws.

Edit: Here's the craft file if you want to see it for yourself. I modified it a bit so you can control it with the pod torque.

http://sdrv.ms/18EEnwh

Edited July 25, 2013 by jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ

[Spartwo]

You don't need the ions. This plane cen effectively fry only by flapping control surfaces. Mash QE or WS repeatedly and see it accelerating.

that's called infinigliding(which I think is cheating)

[VincentLaw]

Also, I like how you edited out my criticism of your moderating skills. I guess some people just can't take feedback. But I'm sure you're still a great moderator even with your flaws.

As per rule 3.4, most forums prohibit criticism of moderation even if it is at fault. (and since I am just informing you of the rule and not enforcing it, I am probably not violating rule 3.2)

However, it is quite possible to create a stock craft that flies using only pod torque and roller bearings without the infiniglide bug. Making a craft fly with ion engines is comparatively easy. Despite the fact that ksp wings have physically impossible stats, infiniglide only applies to control surfaces, not wings, so any craft without control surfaces will not have infiniglide.

This is not an official entry. It is also from 0.19 I think, so untested in 0.21.

Edited July 25, 2013 by VincentLaw

[numerobis]

"infiniglide only applies to control surfaces, not wings"

Not so. The effect is far more pronounced on control surfaces, but you can use pod torque to pitch up/down and fly a pair of wings forever. Control surfaces and wings have nearly the same impossible lift characteristics until very high angles of attack.

[Tarantulae]

I was curious about this and here is my attempt. No control surfaces, and no alternating torque. Just trim like in the picture. Climbing at about 1m/6 seconds. So, it'll take a while before I hit 1,000m. Took off under ion power as well.

[Tarantulae]

Figured I'd post an update.

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