Outsourcing my troubleshooting

[Levelord]

Errr... Levelord, where are the rest of the intakes? No way you can get this to 2,000m/s on just two rams and two radials, right? Or I am missing something? That 6.8 max air tells me something fishy is going on... Also, since you already did everything, I won't even try. But I might steal some aesthetic details. By the way, you remember I have a shuttle waiting for you to name it on my thread, right? You certainly earned it

And Bunny, it is very difficult to land planes on airless worlds, which is why the ones I send there always have extra landing struts to become tailsitters. Again, examples on my thread.

Rune. Heavy clipping, I presume?

The magic of clipping

Haha I saw the shuttle on your thread and downloaded it. Took a while to learn how to get it to orbit though. Feel free to name it. I'm horrible with names D:

[Assault Bunny]

That design works? interesting... I never thought about not using the turbo jet and ram air intakes for space planes, they just seem like the obvious way to go. And it's been a long time objective for me to make a space plane with nuclear engines.

Currently, no, but not for that reason. Despite my best efforts, if I can even get it off the ground it starts backflipping uncontrollably. Looks cool though, right?

In other news, I think I need to work out a new landing system so it doesn't slam into the ground ass first, and then manages to act as a rover like I intended.

[Assault Bunny]

Okay, I think I've come up with a design that should work, as far as Mun landing in concerned. Is there any way to make a part rotate 45 degrees instead of 90? It would greatly help with the aesthetics

Edited April 29, 2013 by Assault Bunny

[Assault Bunny]

Here's my latest design iteration, the Dragunov Mk3! It's my favourite so far, apart from the fact that I can't get it into space, and the ASAS randomly tries to kill me. Also the groupings need some work, but that's an easy fix.

And here's the craft file: http://www./?68kka22byvxhj0g

A side note, managed to build this without turning on no-clipping

[HoY]

If you are willing to use clipping, take off the long tanks that the nukes are installed on, and replace them with 2x half length tanks instead. Then you can clip the LVN inside of the rear tank for a lower profile engine, and CoM farther forward.

You do have some parts clipped, but its ok. Clipping is widely regarded as not cheating!!

[Rune]

Yeah, also, Ram intakes. Really, the radials do close to nothing at altitude, and IMO they ruin the aesthetics. And you can put them on the front and back of those struts without turning on part clipping (by sticking them first somewhere else), and if you use the trick I've shown you before, put twice as many on the front. That should get you to space as soon as you solve the stability issues.

[diegzumillo]

About stability, check your center of mass, center of lift AND center of propulsion. I say this because people often neglect center of propulsion assuming the ship is sufficiently symmetric (aside from a few light parts like landing gear below and a few small wings above), but that's not always the case. Assuming your CM and lift are aligned, if you have more weight on top your propulsion will raise the nose.

[Assault Bunny]

Current iteration of the Dragunov Mk3:

Currently haven't been able to get it into orbit, as ASAS continues to randomly try to kill me. Seriously, it'll go fine for 5 minutes, then suddenly try and put me into a flat spin! And I know it's not a flame out or anything, since turning off ASAS stops it, but by then the damage is done and I can't recover. Also, everything's as aligned as I can get it, but people are free to try and improve it.

http://www./?68kka22byvxhj0g

Also, I'm pretty sure the center of mass moves back as the fuel drains. I have no idea how to check this, or correct for it

Edited May 1, 2013 by Assault Bunny

[Ohm Machre]

Oh, how I KNOW just how difficult it is to get a proper SSTO design working.

One design I was working on, no matter how much I changed it or what engines I ultimately used, could not break atmo. It was as evenly balanced as freaking possible. Eventually, after three design revisions, I scrapped the SSTO name, and built a good booster for it. Works wonderfully as a spaceplane. xP

As far as the Dragunov Mk 3.2 ( as I'm calling it ) is concerned:

Just how many ASAS modules do you have?

I, personally, do NOT like ASAS. At maximum, I use SAS modules, and if need be an avionics cone. The ASAS wobbles too much for my liking...

You also need a LOT MORE RCS FUEL. It's crucial for attitude adjustment. A really good place to put two or three tanks are right before those reversed tail-cones. ;D

On the subject of part-clipping, have you tried putting multiple pairs of wings within one another?

A good majority of designs I used to see often involved wings that were almost indiscriminately separated, or not at all. Double-, triple-, even quintuple-stacked wing designs. What I saee in your current Dragunov Mk 3 is a distinct lack of lift vector, enough so that the weight of the NERVAs, fuel, and other engines isn't dragging it down faster than the jets can push it up. You may ALSO want to think about replacing that front wing section with another delta. Looks weird, I understand, but they are designed for lift after all. ;P

And speaking of deltas, try putting four of them together for a larger wing. Two of them can face as they do, and you can place the third along the edge of the first and flip it, extending that portion for the fourth wing. It's also a commonly-used design, but hey - it works. In most cases. xP

Also, those multiple control surfaces on the main wingfs could potentially be replaced by the longer one. Better for lifting.

The CoM most definitely moves backwards. Where you have your fuel line to your turbojets makes it so that the fuel has to empty out of the forward tank, THEN the backwards one. A good way to counteract that is to simply move the fuel line. Make it so that the fuel pulls FORWARD first.

It might also be of benefit to you to have both the turbos and the miniature rockets share a giant fuel source, I.E. place two opposite fuel lines between tanks. This allows either engine to use BOTH tanks, and in fact, is what I did with many of my designs for my "SSTO".

And finally, try replacing your small solar panels with ones which extend outwards. They generate a LOT more power in the long run, AND can swivel to face the sun - a must-have for the Mün.

I really, REALLY like this design a lot. All of what I said was based on observations only; I have not tried any of what I said within KSP YET. I may get to it tonight if I don't crash. xP

I agree with posts above. The triple-turbo system is a very good indicator of flame-out. Since I use MechJeb to limit acceleration at times, I normally have no need to worry about flame-outs, since 2.0.7 can reduce throttle to prevent a flame-out. Handy in some situations, but probably not SSTO work. And, while I can't see myself needing to use that large strut for your landing legs - I think the smaller ones would work as well, especially in conjunction with the Mk 2 legs you have there - I can understand the need for it structurally. Strut those struts up, however!! If you land on those legs, your craft may decide to do a crab-walk and blow itself up.

That's all I got, Assault! I hope this helps you in some way! I just might have to try hybrid-rover designs myself now! Who knows - might be worth it for Kethane! ;D

Cheers, and good luck!

- Machre

[Assault Bunny]

Okay, new problem. I decided while I was waiting for someone to de-gremlin the Dragunov, I'd build an interplanetary engine ring attachment, much along Levelord's lines:

I call mine the Longbow, though it's still incomplete as I can't figure out how to do the 'bow' on the underside:

I'm having a real wtf problem right now though. I realise I need to put the probe body on the front part here:

Otherwise it will be 'facing' the wrong way once I get it to space. But for some unknown reason, even with part clipping turned on, it refuses to attach by the other points! I REALLY don't want to have to start from scratch, since this took quite a long time to build to this point, so once again I offer it to the community to try and fix before I smash my keyboard.

http://www./?fdmpbml2db970oi

[Ohm Machre]

That's an immediate fix, and very simple I believe:

The first thing I can suggest is: did you rotate the entire body underneath the probe in order to fit it on that point of the Rockomax Hub?

The second thing, if that's not the case, is that you can remove the two trusses holding your engines, and rotate the Hub with Q and E until the probe fits on your desired point.

[Assault Bunny]

Of course I did, but it refuses to attach. I'm hoping that maybe it's just my computer or something, hence why I posted the file.

[Tembaco]

Convince the ship it's capable of attaching by first attaching it to something else. Then you pick it up again and presto, it'll attach to (almost) anything you want. If that doesn't work put the small strut (cubic octagonal strut I think) somewhere, attach the ship to it and than pick the strut with ship attached up again. Now the strut + ship will attach to anything you want. This "convincing" is the trick if you want to clip parts without part clipping enabled. And perhaps even with it enabled.

For the ring build two quarter rings from the orange tanks that'll meet in the middle and connect it in the middle with struts (space tape / space ropes or whatever you call 'em).

As for the SSTO try using the avionics pack instead of the ASAS and put some more lift in the back so the center of mass is in front of the center of lift. Also ram intakes is the way to go at high altitudes.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Tembaco

[Rune]

Of course I did, but it refuses to attach. I'm hoping that maybe it's just my computer or something, hence why I posted the file.

Have you tried putting it somewhere else first, then move it without dropping it? That way you and usually cheat the game into thinking it is not clipping or whatever it thinks it does. Almost as good as activating part clipping (which you should try if everything else fails). Also, you won't be able to do the lower part in one connected piece. Just build to halves and strut them together at the middle. No way around that, you can't place a part joining two others.

Rune. Don't think of it as cheating, think of it as getting around a (currently) buggy UI.

[Assault Bunny]

Okay, this is where I want to put the probe part, and this is what happens no matter what I do, even with part clipping on:

It sticks on, but refuses to attach in any way other than the top point, and once the bottom point.

Also, I know I need to build the bow across the bottom in two mirrored parts. I knew that going in. What I DON'T understand is how to attach things together at something OTHER than a right angle. It's happy to pivot around in EVERY OTHER WAY than what I want. Hell, I can't even get the radial attachment points to angle the right way anymore, so I can't build it around fuel tanks like the top section.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Assault Bunny

[Tembaco]

I'm sorry for misreading your original post. You have to rebuild the craft unfortunately. Fortunately though it's only three parts. The 2 quarters and the docking port which I've done for you.

As for the ring that is no simply copy and paste job you have to build a new one from scratch. But I was able to angle a radial attachment point on the orange fuel tank.

http://www./download.php?cj6o19pwlzvoscz

[Ohm Machre]

( I'm sorry if I'm just sounding like the derpingest guy here, haha. )

Are you holding SHIFT as you press WASDQE to rotate your parts?

They'll rotate a part by about 5°.

[HoY]

Solution for your probe core problem. It's not a problem. Place a docking port or a second probe core in the location you were trying to place this one. Then on the launch pad right click it and press control from here. You won't be able to move the current probe the way you want to because of the way the lower sections were installed

[Assault Bunny]

( I'm sorry if I'm just sounding like the derpingest guy here, haha. )

Are you holding SHIFT as you press WASDQE to rotate your parts?

They'll rotate a part by about 5°.

And that was the piece of info I was looking for, thank you. Really, is it too much trouble to actually list these features in the game somewhere?

Solution for your probe core problem. It's not a problem. Place a docking port or a second probe core in the location you were trying to place this one. Then on the launch pad right click it and press control from here. You won't be able to move the current probe the way you want to because of the way the lower sections were installed

*sigh* Figures. This is one of the major annoyances I have with the builder right now. I would hope this gets fixed when saving parts is implemented.

[Tembaco]

Really, is it too much trouble to actually list these features in the game somewhere?

Unfortunately there isn't a manual, but here are all the controls.

[Rune]

Ok, I see what you did now. See, you can't detach a part and the re-attach it using another a different attachment node. It will only stick with the one that was connected before (the one in the part you are trying to connect, of course, it can attach to any other, but only that one will). That's your problem. But there is a way around anything:

What I did is detach everything from the node, turn it around so it faces the proper direction, and reattach afterwards. Took me like 10 seconds... and months playing this game. Don't feel bad, you just lack the experience making KSP behave.

Edit: if you want the craft file, I could give it to you, but I think you will learn more if I just show you how it's done.

Rune. For saving parts, I have to heavily recommend the subassembly loader. That mod is genius.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Rune

[Ohm Machre]

@Rune: I love the loving heck out of that mod. Saves SO much frustration at times, and on top of that, letting me choose the Launch Pad or Runway without moving .craft files between fodlers is a godsend.

The symmetry's not bad, either. ;P

@Assault Bunny: Haha, I try to help in ways I know how. If you still want or need, you can send me a .craft, and I'll try to help fix it. Or, on previous crafts you posted, I'll download those from Mediafire and take a quick look at them.

I'm no expert at this game, but hopefully I can puzzle it out, haha.

[Assault Bunny]

Thanks for all your help guys Here is the (I hope) finished Longbow Interplanetary Assist Module:

And here it is with the launcher. Taking a break for a bit before I launch it, but it seems pretty solid now:

I people like it I can post the file. It does lack thrusters, but it shouldn't need them once a craft is docked with it. Now I just need to get the Dragunov (Mk3.2) to orbit without the ASAS trying to murder it. Anyone had any luck with that?

[Ohm Machre]

I'll try it later today, Assault. But something keeps bugging me on your interplanetary warp ring. xD

The NERVAs aren't even! And I'm thinking that that rotational torque might end up killing your craft due to the uneven thrust between sides.

I know what you might be thinking. "How?". But think about it: on the left side, one engine is on top of the triad, and on the right, two are on top.

One of my launcher designs inevitably did the same due to symmetry being a weirdo. And it twisted like heck. ( It had no struts. xP )

[Assault Bunny]

Yeah, that's one thing I haven't really tested, but I did it that way because in theory that should even out the thrust and keep it in the center of all 6 engines. Otherwise, in my head at least, it would tilt up or down from the uneven thrust profile.