Outsourcing my troubleshooting

[Assault Bunny]

Yep, no matter what I do the fuel refuses to drain evenly. Even linking all the tanks in a circle of fuel lines, it still picks one tank (or set if it chooses the rocket ones) to drain dry first. 14km up and it starts yawing from side to side (with ASAS on, of course), then goes into a flat spin. It boggles my mind that the ASAS keeps failing at it's ONE JOB!

Seriously, is there any way to make this craft work?

[HoY]

Post what you have now it may be something simple. Just landed in my home city and will be at my own PC in 30 mins

Edit: oh you mean the plane. It's draining like that because you have fuel loops, can't do that with fuel lines it doesn't do what you expect when it can send fuel multiple ways to the same engine.

Edited May 6, 2013 by HoY

[Assault Bunny]

Yes, I meant the Dragunov. I'm thinking I'll have to get a mod to make the fuel drain evenly, which annoys me.

The longbow launcher is still having the snap in half issue during the last stage, yet not at all before. Time to add yet more laterally thrusting engines...

[HoY]

Is that the most recent copy of the plane in the post up a little higher?

[HoY]

fixed it, got into orbit with 1400 ish DV remaining. just moved some fuel lines, replaced the LVT45's with LV30's, repiped the fuel flow for the jet engines and changed a couple key bindings so I could turn off the outer two engines while leaving the center one on when it gets into realy thin atmosphere.

Its a heavy ship, and its a little tricky to control because the com is right on the col and the com creeps backwards.

http://www.catalystservers.com/hoy/ksp/Dragunov%20Mk3_3_H.craft

1 is center jet

2 is outer jets

3 is LVN's

4 unchanged

5 unchanged

6 unchanged

7 LV30's

i took engineer off and put mechjeb on, hope thats not a problem haha

took MJ off and updated the revision number

and the video is uploading now too

Edited May 6, 2013 by HoY

[Assault Bunny]

Okay, what the hell?! I use your version, get to 14km up, and as always ASAS goes foaming mad and tries to put me into a flat spin. Is there some secret chant I'm missing?

[HoY]

Don't blame ASAS lol. It's just a directional hold computer. You using FAR? Because I'm not, not sure what it would do to the plane but I'm guessing it wouldn't be good

Do you open or close any of your intakes to reduce your drag? Mechjeb did that for me automatically so it could be that there's too much drag up front. That could explain the poor handling I experienced when activating the rockets as well

I also didn't check to see if the intakes are placed symmetrically. You could have one that's not paired pulling you a bit possibly.

Edited May 6, 2013 by HoY

[Assault Bunny]

One would think a direction hold system would, you know, hold direction. I have no idea what FAR is, so I doubt I'm using it. I have no mechjeb, and the craft is entirely symmetrical. I don't even get to the point where I activate the rockets before it spazzes out.

[HoY]

Feram Aeronautical Research or something along those lines. It's a plugin that changes the games aerodynamics to be more realistic. I realized after I asked the question you said you used no mods, but some people don't consider mods that have no parts in the same category so I didn't delete the question.

How's your ascent path? Wheels off the runway, pitch up to 45 degrees till it freaks out? You keeping your wings level? RCS off? You saw in my video I didn't need RCS till I lit the LFO's and couldn't keep the nose up for some reason (undetermined) so it's strange that your not getting the same result..

[Assault Bunny]

I've tried pointing at 45, I've tried pointing higher so the direction's pointing closer to 45, wings level, rcs off, get to 14km up and yaw, yaw, out of control spin. Only mods I have are the sub-assembly loader and the flight engineer.

[HoY]

Not sure what to tell you lol. Possibly try on another clean install of the game? Maybe something went wonky and your aerodynamics are off? Have you had any luck getting anything else into orbit lately?

Also, all 3 jet engines firing? Remember I changed their hotkeys from all 3 on 1 to center on 1 outer on 2

[Assault Bunny]

I have two Comstar satellites in geosynchronous orbit. Well, almost, I've got one a little further out so it will eventually be positioned above space command. Also the Artemis 3, which I should point out is heavier, got to close Mun orbit and back.

Of course I'm firing all three jets. Just tried another run with a steeper climb, this time I only got to 12km before uncontrollable spin, to the point it ripped itself apart.

[Ohm Machre]

It is definitely sounding like jet flameout.

You need to add more intakes. As suggested before, possibly, you can stack intakes on top of one another with the dev tools.

You should be able to get up to at least 17km with the right design, and I've heard of jets pushing all the way up to 20+ before, so it's [possible. All you need are intakes.

It's like the rocket version. Rockets need moar SRBs, and spaceplanes need moar intakes. :3

[HoY]

Ohm, look at the video. I was able to get the exact same thing up without flameouts. He's not getting flameouts.

[Assault Bunny]

Almost got the Dragunov to space, by manually controlling the fuel tanks in flight. It's supposed to be able to get to at least the Mun, land, and come back without having to refuel, and on my best run it had barely 1/4 of rocket fuel left, and even less jet fuel, and even then it didn't manage a stable orbit. And no, no flameout. I did get it to 20km, with far too much manual fiddling, but it's getting from there to orbit that's killing it.

Just tried going back to the longbow launcher for a change of pace. It's still snapping in half on the final stage, despite now having a total of 8 laterally firing engines, but this last time it failed so hard it broke the game. Wouldn't let me end the flight, even when everything had smashed into the surface, except for one piece of debris which phased through the planet instead, orbiting around the core (at well over 10km/s at Pe) then up through the surface again. Had to alt-f4 just to end it.

It's still almost impossible to control the longbow by itself. Sadly, I think I may have to finally admit defeat and start it all again. Possibly even the Dragunov too. *sigh*

[HoY]

Assault if your trying the Dragunov that I uploaded and its having fuel balance problems then theres something wrong with you install!

[Assault Bunny]

I assume it's fuel balance problems, since I can't tell after it's left the hanger.

So after several hours, I present the Longbow MkII!

http://www./?zfu89wu4hn7vb1z

I did build it in the spaceplane hanger, since it mirrored things far better, and it holds much less rocket fuel than the previous version, but it's much lighter. Also, this version comes with a 1 Kerman escape pod, complete with ion engine and parachute. Slight problem, the ion engine separates upon launch, but I can fix that easily. What I would like help with is getting the central bottom section to not be at a slight angle.

Also now I need to make a new launcher, and possibly a new Dragunov that works more as intended.

[HoY]

When I built my ring for my spaceplane I actually started with the plane in the SPH, then built outwards from the docking ports. That way I know that while my plane is docked the thrust line is centered on the CoM, and I can fire all of the engines at once rather than just the ones on the ring (used 2 docking ports instead of 1 to ensure proper alignment)

When it came to building the launcher I loaded up the craft with the ring on the plane, took nearly all the parts off the plane except the 3 fuel tanks the docking ports were attached to, and stuck an orange tank on the back of them then moved that whole thing to the VaB to build the lifter under it.

Using quantum struts the only parts that touched between the ring and the lifter was the pair of docking ports.

I don't use this ring anymore as I built it when I didn't know all the tricks, but the plane is still my favorite creation!

And here's the long boring launch video of the ring And the plane, because I don't have any other pictures of the ring on its launcher lol

Hope that helps inspire your launch platform development

[HoY]

Can't edit my post again. Yay iOS chrome...

Anyway, about your slight angle problem. The problem is the wing pieces themselves unfortunately. They aren't Exactly flat or completely 90/90/90/90 rectangles. That's one of the reasons my newer rings don't use wing pieces, but structural girders instead. They are measured precisely and have a more industrial look, but don't have the problem of being overly massive when you use too many of them like the flat steel plates do.

[Assault Bunny]

That would be a great way to do it, but I want to use the inline docking clamps and the shielded ports, which of course can't be opened in the editor for some reason, and the inline clamps don't seem to have a size equivalent piece. Also, managed to fix the bottom section by turning off angle snap on the connecting strut, thus making me facepalm myself.

Also, where am I supposed to have the CoM and CoL on a spaceplane?

Edited May 7, 2013 by Assault Bunny

[Rune]

Also, where am I supposed to have the CoM and CoL on a spaceplane?

That one is easy: close together (for maneuverability), but with the CoL above and behind the CoM. Think of it as the plane wanting to hang from the CoL, and being pulled down at the CoM. It's what is actually happening. The more separated they are, the more stable the plane will be, and the closer they are, the more maneuverable. If you get them far apart and the plane tends to pitch either up/down, fix that by angling the control surfaces to counteract the torque (SHIFT+WASD). Also take into account the shifting weight as the fuel tanks get empty, and remember the old aeronautic motto: "Planes with the center of lift behind the center of mass fly poorly. Planes with the center of mass behind the center of lift fly once."

Rune. Nothing to do with the pendulum fallacy, BTW.

[Assault Bunny]

Slight problem with the first new prototype; seems inline clamps don't like being near anything. Open the doors, plane wiggles and bends, then snaps back into place. Close the doors, plane explodes. Hmm...

[Levelord]

I try to avoid using the flat wings as the sole structural support for my space rings. I placed a very strong skeleton for my wings attach to, so the wobble on the rings are almost non-existent. The wings are merely there for aesthetic looks and I'm quite sure the ring will work fine without it. It's compatiable with any space plane with horizontal dimensions that can fit into the ring. It also has a centered mass, so that as the fuel runs out, the center of mass is still within the center of mass of the plane it is towing.

Apart from Mechjeb, everything else is pretty much stock parts.

[HoY]

That's one reason I switched away from using inline docking ports. You can't make a blended body aircraft with them unless they are stuck out like a goose neck. The twin jr ports dont look as good but try do the job. Could probably do a little but better by using a cubic strut in their place but clipped into the yanks then have the ports on the inner node of the cube... Maybe in the next revision!

[Assault Bunny]

Well, three prototypes in, I have ditched the inline ports. Too much trouble for not enough good looks. I have now reached a (mostly) successful model, which I call the Arrow (since it goes in the longbow):

http://www./?lbgq1tkt6cwtn3h

It's still a touch unwieldy to fly, still working out the kinks, but it goes pretty much straight so far. Took a lot of fiddling, but I modified the Longbow MkII and got them to fit together perfectly

http://www./?zfu89wu4hn7vb1z

I've yet to try to hack gravity and fit them together on the ground, but there hasn't been too much wobble from the wing structure so far. If it gets bad once the two craft are joined, I'll reinforce it then. Feel free to fiddle