Little thought about hiring modders in the dev team

[Netris]

As Bac9 just got hired by the dev team, I feel a bit sad. One of the reason I play this game is all the amazing mods released since the begining. But as time goes by, the team continue hiring the best modders. Don't get me wrong, it's a great thing for the game itself but I can't see the value added. Yes we have 3 or 4 new parts once in a while, a new little functionnality but the whole community lose a great mod pack. NovaSilisko stopped updating the Silisko Industries addon, Romfarer won't probably update his lazor mod for long and now Bac9 who has released my favourite pack for the moment just got hired which means B9 aerospace won't probably be updated anymore. Only C7 saw his pack added to the game content. It's a good thing to improve the team by adding talented devellopers, but I think it should not be by taking away a good modder from the community, when we know that mods are what make a good game really amazing. I don't mean stop hiring modder, but give them more freedom to have time to, at least, continue updating their mod. People will probably say I'm a bad person because I play my game with mod but, that I should not take the habit to play with content that'll probably be stopped once, but as I said earlier, mods are what make the difference between good and amazing. It's not a criticism against the team, I really respect you for your job and everything you've done. It's just a little personnal thought I wanted to share with the community to discuss in a civilized way.

[Temstar]

But you'll see more and better work out of these talented people by paying them.

Eg: C7 aerospace, Nova's new textures for 0.18

[Van Disaster]

My biggest worry - and this is from first and second-hand experience, some of it very recent and a very similar situation - is that people tend to stop being passionate about what they're doing when it's a job and there's tight deadlines and business-driven compromises being forced on them.

[SkyHook]

Well I can only be happy for him, it's a great honor! While I do agree with you that it sucks to lose mods, we can only hope that the content that the creators have made will be implemented in to the game. If you have ever played around with the Lazor mod, then many aspects of his mod will make it into the game in the form of the UI and the knowledge base. Hopefully, B9's parts will help the space planes to move forward. The Mk. 3 REALLY needs a reason to exist..I would love to see a stock shuttle become viable, and Bac9 is the perfect person to do it!

[AlternNocturn]

Frankly I saw Bac9's assimilation into Squad coming from lightyears away. There's no way they were going to ignore his improved Mk2 and Mk3 plane parts, especially since time and time again C7 himself mentioned the stock plane parts were going to get an overhaul in the future.

[planetx]

I find this encouraging because if mod devs are being hired it can only mean that KSP is going to get better, instead of falling off a cliff into development hell. I can definitely see the "mod support goes away when mod dev gets hired" but when you look at the quality of these mods and the skill of the dev I think it's great that the dev's skill will now go into all future KSP releases.

[SkyRender]

There's an amusing saying that nature abhors a vacuum (meaning nature must really be pissed at the universe in general). I suspect that, with the addition of these top-notch modders to the KSP staff, new modders will step in to take their place and be inspired to outshine their predecessors in hopes that they too might become developers some day. The only way this can be a bad thing is if the modding scene does not get any new talent or any improvements from existing modders at all. And I don't see that happening.

[Tw1]

I find it sort of encouraging, as it means Squad must be doing well enough to hire more people.

But I agree about the mod packs.

I feel sorry for those that use the Lazor mod, it looked a little too sci-fi to be included in the stock game.

But I hope to see awesome parts from Bac9 in the future!

[Netris]

I find this encouraging because if mod devs are being hired it can only mean that KSP is going to get better, instead of falling off a cliff into development hell. I can definitely see the "mod support goes away when mod dev gets hired" but when you look at the quality of these mods and the skill of the dev I think it's great that the dev's skill will now go into all future KSP releases.

I agree with you, but 1) the B9 part won't probably be added to the game because they don't fit the game style, 2) a modder do whatever he wants whenever he wants. If it becomes a job, you have deadline, you have to work on stuff you don't really like and over all, you have less time to do what you want. It's a great thing for Bac9, but what should be greater is that they gave freedom to their dev to make mod. I play other games than KSP, mostly Paradox Interactive games and some of their devs are making some amazing mods so it's definitely possible.

[zzz]

, but give them more freedom to have time to, at least, continue updating their mod.

I don't think he will be chained in underground, if he want to continue why he can't? Peolpe who make mods usually make it in free time. This is about is he want

Bac9 do very good, very professional, things, now he will got money for what he do, it's nice. All this "whole community lose " is too egoistic in my opinion. I don't think he was forced to agree for this by pointing a gun at him, I guess such work is what he want.

Edited May 14, 2013 by zzz

[Tw1]

The B9 pack is very extensive already though. I only use a few parts from it, to save my RAM.

Perhaps it will only need maintenance, and bug fixes from now on?

[JonoRig]

Also, in a lot of interviews I've seen, some of the best game developers always said, there's not really a worthwhile degree in game design, sure theres stuff that shows you HOW to do things, but they don't teach you creativity and the such; and that in "their" days, the best way to audition for a job is to just keep releasing top quality modders.... I see this as nothing less then encouraging, sure we now lose a great modder, but we've gained a fantastic developer, and like someone said, there WILL be someone else who steps up and fills that Gap, which means we won't just gave an updated version of our favourite mods (which is unfortunate) but we may gain entire new, creative and exciting user expansions and mod plugins...

[Daze]

I think that the implementation of modders in devs team is only a good thing. If you can have parts born ad mod in stock KSP it's better no?

[Reavermyst]

Actually, modding games is one of many ways to break into the gaming industry. When great modders post great content, they are more likely to have a member from the game's dev team or even completely different developers contact them offering a job. It's actually one of the best ways to get a job in this industry as you're developing a portfolio on the fly and always run the possibility of catching a lead's attention!

To say it's hurting the community is just, pessimistic. This project is community driven! The words and actions of us, shapes this game. Hiring members of this community is proof enough of that!

Edited May 14, 2013 by Reavermyst

[Supernovy]

[Van Disaster]

I don't think he will be chained in underground, if he want to continue why he can't? Peolpe who make mods usually make it in free time. This is about is he want

Because when you spend game time doing your job, you don't usually want to go and do the same thing as your hobby in your free time. I've broken my own rules about doing hobbies as jobs more times than I should have.

It's not the end of anything - there's no reason you can't be interested in & excited about doing things someone else has asked you to do anyway - but doing that *and* your own work tends not to happen, from experience.

[Netris]

That's not exactly what I meant. It's great for all the modders to get a job they like. I'm happy for them. But as stated higher, when you're doing something full time, you tend to not want to do it in your free time because why work on your free time ? I'm not saying either it will be the case for Bac9 but it's something that worries me. More of this is as Squad keep on hiring the more talented modder, what will be left in the modding community ? Sure there will always have talented modders but not everyone is able to do such a great work. And this affect the diversity. The fact that all the modders do it for the entire games's lifespan adds more to this. For example, we had 3 space station pack (Kosmos, B.A.C.E. and ExPi). One of the modders get hired by Squad, one other give up updating his mod. There's only cBBp left. All in all, even if it's a great news for the game itself, the community loses diversity.

[Reavermyst]

That's not exactly what I meant. It's great for all the modders to get a job they like. I'm happy for them. But as stated higher, when you're doing something full time, you tend to not want to do it in your free time because why work on your free time ? I'm not saying either it will be the case for Bac9 but it's something that worries me. More of this is as Squad keep on hiring the more talented modder, what will be left in the modding community ? Sure there will always have talented modders but not everyone is able to do such a great work. And this affect the diversity. The fact that all the modders do it for the entire games's lifespan adds more to this. For example, we had 3 space station pack (Kosmos, B.A.C.E. and ExPi). One of the modders get hired by Squad, one other give up updating his mod. There's only cBBp left. All in all, even if it's a great news for the game itself, the community loses diversity.

One thing to keep in mind is that there will always be new blood out there. We're too early in development to say diversity is dying in mods. As time goes on, this game will get better, more people will join, and thus more modders will likely emerge from this. Not to mention, once we get around to about v.50(shoot sooner than that at this rate) I'm sure Squad will have a nice full dev team and will slow down their recruitment. Your worries are a tad inflated right now. Calm yourself and give the game and community time to show off more talent!

[Commander Zoom]

"Oh no! We can't have mod(der)s getting too good or too popular, because then their stuff will become stock and no one will ever use it!"

... seriously?

[Netris]

"Oh no! We can't have mod(der)s getting too good or too popular, because then their stuff will become stock and no one will ever use it!"

... seriously?

You're not what I'd call someone who understand what "artistic line" is, are you ?

[zzz]

Because when you spend game time doing your job, you don't usually want to go and do the same thing as your hobby in your free time. I've broken my own rules about doing hobbies as jobs more times than I should have.

Anyway, it's still freewill. It's modder decision, is he want to make it his job for this guys or not. It's sounds like "stop giving to modders such opportunity" and "they are just mindless dolls and I want them to be my doll, not yours"

And any modder can stop do mods, becouse of real life or lost interst in any time anyway. Hiring is one of ways to make them dedicate more time to game and longer.

Edited May 14, 2013 by zzz

[Dictator Dan]

Personally, I think its a good thing. While some mods will stop being developed, overall it means several of the best modders out there are working together to create a game that functions seamlessly and incorporates a wider spread of parts and functions. So its a matter of short term =( long term =D.

Yes, I use smiles to make points.

[Commander Zoom]

You're not what I'd call someone who understand what "artistic line" is, are you ?

No, and googling the term doesn't turn up anything that looks relevant. But then, that may be because my art is writing. On that note, looking at your post, I'm tempted to make a similarly catty remark about how English grammar isn't exactly your forte.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Commander Zoom

[Van Disaster]

Anyway, it's still freewill. It's modder decision, is he want to make it his job for this guys or not. It's sounds like "stop giving to modders such opportunity" and "they are just mindless dolls and I want them to be my doll, not yours"

Way to put words in people's mouths. Given I've gone down exactly the same route myself I'd be a giant hypocrite if I claimed anything of the sort, and given I try not to be I never said anything like that. That doesn't change that in my experience people who're hired to work on game cores generally don't do mod work as well - which is all I've said. The OP is worried about diversity; unless Squad suddenly turn the game's exterior interface opaque and hire anyone who can work around that ( which has also happened elsewhere to some extent ), it's unlikely that we'll ever run out of mods.

[anarkhon]

My biggest worry - there is still no doors,Kerbals dont even fit in the cabins.If B9 became stock then KSP need a trillions giga ram to run