Kerbal Space Tycoon

[alpinematt]

Well done great challenge might try it.

[sgt_flyer]

well, i'm trying to create a rocket for the MLLV, but, could you clarify the point 'payload stage must be able to hold 1.25m parts ?

[CSX_Ind]

well, i'm trying to create a rocket for the MLLV, but, could you clarify the point 'payload stage must be able to hold 1.25m parts ?

Pretty simple. It means your MLLV must be able to send small payloads such as 1.25m in diameter. I do recommend to use adapter for 1.25m payloads though, because it could wobble a bit with 2.5m decoupler

[sgt_flyer]

ok thanks

[sgt_flyer]

after trying to design with various ways the A1 MLLV launcher, i find that the rewards are not high enough for MLLV onwards (at least if you try to do the challenge with stock parts rockets - KW rocketry tanks are much cheaper than the rockomax 32 and the jumbo 64 tank) - my cheapest tier 4 stock capable (by it's specs) cant get below 80000 KCU (and that's really dumbing down reliability) maximum payout is 75000 credits if you get tier 4 with an A1 MLLV Rocket (after all, as a tycoon, you're here to make money, not lose money ) there's really an enormous gap between A4 SLLV and A1 MLLV rocket in terms of necessary fuel.

[EndlessWaves]

You shouldn't be using anything close to a Rockomax 32 tank to launch 9 tons to low orbit - a quarter of that size is the biggest I'd be considering when going for fuel efficiency. Having said that, scaling the payload faster than the budget does mean you need to learn to be much more efficient as you go along and the heavy ones at least are very optimistic pricings.

A1 launch | A1/A2 SLLV rocket | launch cost : 38450 KCU

That doesn't look right.

Each 800L tank contains 1800kg of LiquidFuel and 2200kg of Oxidiser, resulting in 4 tons of fuel as expected. Cost of an 800L tank is 1800 * 2.5 + 2200 * 1.5 = 7800. You've used 8 of them plus two 400L tanks, so equivalent to nine, giving you a fuel bill of 7800 * 9 = 70,200KCU. How can your launch cost be almost half that?

[sgt_flyer]

note : i think CSX_ind calculated on the basis of 1 unit of liquid fuel = 1kg of liquid fuel, because he did not know what unit the fuel was (plus it would be reaaaly harsh to convert everything - and it would be simply impossible to launch the first rocket with 40000 credits if you dont go for any achievment. so we have 360 liquid fuel and 440 oxydizer, and the flt 400 half that. the A1/A2 SLLV has 8 flt 800 and 1 flt 200. all of that contains 3060 liquid fuel and 3740 oxydizer (in the resource tab on the launch pad, with the payload removed). launch vehicule cost before paying for the fuel : 25190 KCU. liquid fuel cost : 3060*2.5 = 7650 KCU, oxygen fuel cost : 3060*1.5 = 5610 KCU. final cost : 38450 KCU.

my orbital transfer stage + the payload weight between 14 and 15% of the rocket (the orbital transfer stage is there for circularizing after ascent, then bringing the payload to full geosynchronous orbit - Tier 4 achievement)

[CSX_Ind]

note : i think CSX_ind calculated on the basis of 1 unit of liquid fuel = 1kg of liquid fuel, because he did not know what unit the fuel was (plus it would be reaaaly harsh to convert everything - and it would be simply impossible to launch the first rocket with 40000 credits if you dont go for any achievment. so we have 360 liquid fuel and 440 oxydizer, and the flt 400 half that. the A1/A2 SLLV has 8 flt 800 and 1 flt 200. all of that contains 3060 liquid fuel and 3740 oxydizer (in the resource tab on the launch pad, with the payload removed). launch vehicule cost before paying for the fuel : 25190 KCU. liquid fuel cost : 3060*2.5 = 7650 KCU, oxygen fuel cost : 3060*1.5 = 5610 KCU. final cost : 38450 KCU.

my orbital transfer stage + the payload weight between 14 and 15% of the rocket (the orbital transfer stage is there for circularizing after ascent, then bringing the payload to full geosynchronous orbit - Tier 4 achievement)

I'll look into it, I'm currently working on A2 model of MLLV so if I get no profit at all, I will have to change funds for MLLV & HLLV.

However, you don't have to use only stock parts. Reason why I allowed mods is because some mods do give you cheaper parts with extra advantages or minor downsides. Currently there is no achievement for using only stock parts so try build your launch vehicles & ships by mixing various parts.

And about payload, resource tap does give you total fuel on board, but if you used fuel tanks as dummy weights, since resource tap gives you total amount, when you calculate your launch cost, it will be automatically included. So try not to use fuel tanks as weights but try to use structural parts such as multi-point connector.

And about fuel calculation - I could use liters as unit, but it won't make any difference, so it will stay as kilogram.

And tips on building rockets : Try not to overachieve.

It is good to have Tier-4 and get 40,000KCU, but to do so, your LKO model must be used. Which means if you fail Tier-4 but achieves GTO Achievement, that means you only receives fund given + 5,000KCU, and that cannot cover all your costs.

So what I did was to achieve Tier-3 and do 2nd attempt to get GTO Achievement. By doing so, not only I'm getting all my funds back(both 1st and 2nd), I get 35,000KCU as an extra.

For GTO Achievement, since you are using GTO model, you know your launch vehicle will get GTO Achievement if your launch vehicle got Tier-3.

If you try to achieve Tier-4 at a single attempt, not only you have to have powerful rockets, but you also have to load more fuel, causing you to pay more.

Remember, management skill does not mean how cheap can you build your vehicle, but also means how efficiently will you attempt to challenges to get maximum incomes.

[EndlessWaves]

And about fuel calculation - I could use liters as unit, but it won't make any difference, so it will stay as kilogram.

I'd have said it's easier to calculate from volume because they're listed separately rather than mass but that's up to you, and a conversion table is easy enough:

Solid Fuel: 7.5kg per unit of volume

Liquid Fuel: 5kg per unit of volume

Oxidiser: 5kg per unit of volume

Monopropellant: 4kg per unit of volume

Xenon Gas: 0.1kg per unit of volume.

My main point was that either you'd calculated incorrectly or I'd missed a step, what was reducing the launch cost down to 38450KCU?

[CSX_Ind]

So, about MLLV mission being low-funded,

Here's my result up to A2 model. (Remember, I'm using KW Rocketry mod)

MLLV(M2) A1

• Incomes Total : 216,219.92KCU
  
  • Profit from last mission : 97,219.92KCU
    
  • Initial Fund : 35,000KCU
    
  • 2nd Attempt Fund : 7,000KCU (1st attempt succeeded, 2nd attempt for the GTO Achievement)
    
  • 1st Attempt Reward : 35,000KCU
    
  • 2nd Attempt Reward : 7,000KCU
    
  • Tier-3 Achievement : 30,000KCU
    
  • GTO Achievement : 5,000KCU
    

  [*]Expenses Total : 184,564KCU

  • 1st Attempt Construction Fee : 37,895KCU
    
  • 1st Attempt Launch Fee : 54,387KCU
    
  • 2nd Attempt Construction Fee : 37,895KCU
    
  • 2nd Attempt Launch Fee : 54,387KCU
    

  [*]Profit Total : 31,655.92KCU

MLLV(M2) A2

• Incomes Total : 151,655.92KCU
  
  • Profit from last mission : 31,655.92KCU
    
  • Initial Fund : 45,000KCU
    
  • 1st Attempt Reward : 45,000KCU
    
  • Tier-3 Achievement : 30,000KCU
    

  [*]Expenses Total : 107,645KCU

  • 1st Attempt Construction Fee : 43,355KCU
    
  • 1st Attempt Launch Fee : 64,290KCU
    

  [*]Profits Total : 44,010.92KCU

My conclusion is that it depends on your strategy. I didn't go for the 2nd attempt because I knew even if I go for the GTO Achievement, since I'll only get 9000KCU as 2nd Attempt Fund, and 9000 + 5000 = 14000KCU cannot cover both 1st and 2nd launch fees.

However, I've decided to merge HLLV Mission with MLLV Mission and adjust fund for A3 and A4 model on MLLV, lowering both difficulties and mission length. (Obviously we don't want to stick to a one mission whole day)

[sgt_flyer]

I'd have said it's easier to calculate from volume because they're listed separately rather than mass but that's up to you, and a conversion table is easy enough:

Solid Fuel: 7.5kg per unit of volume

Liquid Fuel: 5kg per unit of volume

Oxidiser: 5kg per unit of volume

Monopropellant: 4kg per unit of volume

Xenon Gas: 0.1kg per unit of volume.

My main point was that either you'd calculated incorrectly or I'd missed a step, what was reducing the launch cost down to 38450KCU?

that's because we simply multiply the fuel units per the multiplicator - no conversion to Kg in fact, it's just the unit CSX_Ind gave arbitrarly - basically, you just multiply the units shown in game per the multiplicator CSX_Ind gave to find the final price. so if you have an FLT800 tank, you'll have 360*2.5 + 440*1.5 = 1560 KCU of fuel fee to fill this tank. (i remove the payload for finding the exact number of fuel units i have, as long as i dont hit the space bar, i think it's fine to say the mission has not started yet )

[CSX_Ind]

that's because we simply multiply the fuel units per the multiplicator - no conversion to Kg in fact, it's just the unit CSX_Ind gave arbitrarly - basically, you just multiply the units shown in game per the multiplicator CSX_Ind gave to find the final price. so if you have an FLT800 tank, you'll have 360*2.5 + 440*1.5 = 1560 KCU of fuel fee to fill this tank. (i remove the payload for finding the exact number of fuel units i have, as long as i dont hit the space bar, i think it's fine to say the mission has not started yet )

Oh yes, about the unit conversion.

If you look at the settings part, we've made an agreement that for this challenge, all masses will be measured in kilograms, and all lengths will be measured in meters, unless otherwise specified. Which means if I decided to use volume as a part of measurement, I'd specify it by saying "This part will be measured in liters, gallons, etc.." and give you the specific prices(or other information needed) for that part.

Edited May 16, 2013 by CSX_Ind

[sgt_flyer]

i reread your mission report, and i did not used took into account the initial funds provided in my report (i thought you only have the 'funds' if you succeeded the mission) - that's why i thought the rewards where not high enough.

i'll correct my previous post to take into account the initial funds into it, but basically, it adds 150000 to my balance (i only took into account the first 10000 KCU and the rewards only as income - not taking into account the funds given before launch) - now it's really possible to do with the right funds

Edited May 16, 2013 by sgt_flyer

[sgt_flyer]

okay, here is my report for the MLLV part of the challenge

Balance after last mission : 292118 KCU (i corrected on the previous mission report too - i did not at first took the 'funds', only the rewards when i made the first mission report)

A1 MLLV launch :

A1 1st funding : 35000 KCU

A1 1st launch | A1MLLV rocket mkI | launch cost : 73298 KCU

result : Failure (not enough gimbaling capable engines to steer the rocket) - rocket crashed after loss of control.

MKI model design scrapped.

Balance after failure : 253820 KCU

A1 2nd funding : 28000 KCU

A1 2nd launch | A1 MLLV rocket MKII (KW rocketry/KSPX)| launch cost : 53155 KCU

result : 9.1t Payload brought to full geosynchronous orbit on second launch. (tier 4)

No remaining fuel after orbital stage Deorbit Burn

note : an engineer has asked where was his Engineering tool after the rocket launch - he claimed he found a battery unit and a ASAS unit where he left his

engineering tool- strangely, ASAS was not working aboard the inflight rocket - whoops ! hopefully, there was a good controller steering the rocket, he managed to

pull off the mission without ASAS and additional battery (could still steer the rocket at daytime but not at nightime - thanks to the designer who thought to place

some small solar panels on the rocket )

Reward : 68000 KCU

Needless to say, A1 MLLV launch was my black cat of all launches A1 2nd launch cost include the lost engineer redux chip of 160 KCU. (updated model A1 MLLV MKII bis will include ASAS and battery and no engineer redux tool - projected cost : 54185 KCU on launch)

A1 MLLV costs : 126453 KCU

A1 MLLV income : 131000 KCU

Net gain : 4547 KCU

Balance : 296665

A2 MLLV launch :

A2 funding : 45000 KCU

A2 launch | A2 MLLV rocket (KW rocketry/KSPX) | launch cost : 67886,5KCU

result : 12.2t Payload brought to full geosynchronous orbit on first launch(tier 4)

115 liquid fuel and 141 oxy left after orbital transfer stage deorbit burn.

rocket starting to be too slow to turn with guidance unit torque forces - RCS needed for bigger upcoming rockets

Reward : 85000 KCU

A2 MLLV cost : 67886,5 KCU

A2 MLLV income : 130000

Net gain : 62113,5

Balance : 358778,5KCU

A3 MLLV launch :

A3 funding : 60000 KCU

A3 launch | A3 MLLV rocket (KW rocketry/KSPX) | launch cost : 87251 KCU

result : 13,4t Payload brought to full geosynchronous orbit on first launch(tier 4)

91.66 liquid fuel, 112 oxy and 143 monopropellant left after orbital transfer stage deorbit burn.

Reward : 100000 KCU

A3 MLLV cost : 87251

A3 MLLV income : 160000

Net gain : 72749 KCU

Balance : 431527,5 KCU

A4 MLLV launch :

A4 funding : 65000 KCU

A4 launch | A4 MLLV rocket (KW rocketry/KSPX) | launch cost : 106224,5 KCU

result : 22.5t Payload brought to full geosynchronous orbit on first launch(tier 4)

26.26 liquid fuel, 32.09 oxy and 31.48 monopropellant remaining after orbital transfer stage deorbit burn.

(note : i reaaaally went overboard with the A4 - she's really overengineered 4712ms DeltaV in ascent stage, 1335ms DeltaV in orbital transfer stage. payload + orbital transfer stage weight : 38.146t - total rocket weight (payload, orbital transfer stage + ascent stage) = 193.546t (so orbital stage + payload weighted 19.71% of the rocket) Flight profile : central core of the ascent stage dropped when i had an Ap at 100km, and a pe at 22km - the orbital stage finished the mission on it's own after - and there was not too much fuel for all the small corrections needed for having a good geosynch orbit

At the end, going ultra efficient is not that interesting for this challenge - i saved 12000 on the rocket price KCU from the less overboard (and more error permissive) first version - basically, what you save on quantity of fuel, you pay in parts costs.

Reward : 105000 KCU

A4 MLLV cost : 106224,5 KCU

A4 MLLV income : 170000

Net gain : 63775,5 KCU

Balance : 422554 KCU

Here are the pictures of the 4 rockets :

MLLV A1 MKII:

MLLV A2:

MLLV A3:

MLLV A4: (left the Engineer redux infos on this one )

Edited May 18, 2013 by sgt_flyer

[CSX_Ind]

It seems we have first top 5 on mission package 1

Well, Mission Package 2 is coming soon so be sure to keep those rocket designs. You are going to use them for Mission Package 2.

Oh and don't forget that you will be doing Mission Package 2 with whatever final profit made from Mission Package 1.

Edited May 18, 2013 by CSX_Ind

[sgt_flyer]

question : can we attempt to launch multiple satellites at the same time ? (example : a KASS and a KASB) - plus the satellites are not the good weight at all for previously made rocket designs... they are waaay too light compared to the previously made rockets payloads note : i plan to use one of the previously designed rockets in order to lift off the multiple sats - the one which will be the most adapted for it. all my sats are individually under 1.25m diameter of course and can be fitted on top of the SLLV rockets.

Edited May 18, 2013 by sgt_flyer

[CSX_Ind]

question : can we attempt to launch multiple satellites at the same time ? (example : a KASS and a KASB) - plus the satellites are not the good weight at all for previously made rocket designs... they are waaay too light compared to the previously made rockets payloads note : i plan to use one of the previously designed rockets in order to lift off the multiple sats - the one which will be the most adapted for it. all my sats are individually under 1.25m diameter of course and can be fitted on top of the SLLV rockets.

Well I tried launching 3 satellites on one launch vehicle, and I quickly figured out that each time you decouple your payload, satellite's vector changes, causing change in a flight path. So I'd rather launch each satellite with individual launch vehicles. And I do understand that the satellite is very lightweight, but do understand that you do not have to pay for your launch fee for this mission, meaning your income will be higher than previous mission package.

Reason launch vehicles being capable of sending heavy payloads are because it was designed to send manned spaceships and heavy payloads for future space station mission. For the upcoming two missions, yes, payload will be small, but no, that does not mean we are going to waste our launch vehicles for future missions.

[sgt_flyer]

well i'll try with my specially fitted MLLV A1 MKII it embarks all five satellites (each one is smaller than 1.25m, all five fit into the 2.5m KW fairing i put around i normally designed it to be able to correctly deploy it's satellites once in orbit the final ascent stage will go for a 100 km equatorial orbit - release a 45° orbital transfer stage (embarks one KASB and one KASS) this orbital transfer stage will deploy the KASB once reached the desired inclination, then head to 45° GTO for deploying the KASS.

the final ascent stage will then release the second orbital transfer stage, this one for the 135° inclination, then the 135° GTO.

lastly, the final ascent stage will release the equatorial KASB

i'll see if it's feasible

[Minerscale]

Taken,

Is there any management mods for ksp? That would make this chalange so much easier

[Designer225]

Let's take Rockomax X200-32 Fuel Tank as our example.

It can hold 1440 units of Liquid Fuel and 1760 units of Oxidizer.

Since units for fuels never mentioned in anywhere, it is kg.

If it was tonnes, I'd specify as per ton.

Also on Settings-

"2. Fuels and weights are measured in kg, lengths are measured in meters, unless otherwise specified."

@kahlzun and CSX_Ind:

Yes, the weights are in tonnes and the thousandths counterpart, but there are no telling whether that is a long ton (1t = 1000 kgs) or a short ton (1T = 2000 lbs).

Notice the Ts. And it can't be tonnes, for the fuel units. It is possibly 1/1000 of a long ton (1 kg = 1/1000t) or 1/2000 of a short ton (1 lb = 1/1000T). Except the fuel, which use the units that are thousandth times as much as the tonnes, all other weight indications uses tonnes, though never specified which tonnes.

I think SQUAD should get into this issue even more.

And yes, the others uses the SI (metric) system.

@CSX_Ind:

And I'll try this challenge.