[0.20] Advanced Radial Nacelle Engine

[trekkie_]

ADVANCED RADIAL NACELLE ENGINE

Specs

-Thrust: 4000

-Universal ISP: 3000

-Weight: 10 tons

-Runs on Standard Fuel (for now)

-Glowing engine and throttle FX

Edited May 23, 2013 by trekkie_

[comham]

You're pretty good at modelling and texturing!

[frizzank]

Nice work, need some antimatter now...

[JonoRig]

lol, how long until its ready to download?

[zYnthethicz]

lol, how long until its ready to download?

As always, "Soonâ„¢"

[bulletrhli]

Can we see an ingame screenshot in the OP?

[trekkie_]

it's actually the KSP port that's the problem. Finally used a trick to get the upload to showup instantly, so everything's up and running.

Don't forget to show your appreciation for modder's work and rate their uploads. It's sad to see thousands of downloads but no ratings.

Edited May 18, 2013 by trekkie_

[JonoRig]

im gonna try it before i rate it, but unless its terrible; looks alone should get it a 4/5

[mosolov]

I don't mean to offend you but it somewhat looks like a lightsaber.

[trekkie_]

I don't mean to offend you but it somewhat looks like a lightsaber.

that would actually be true of virtually all trek style warp nacelles and light sabres.

[JonoRig]

ok, i have one comment to make on this... damned they are powerful; using 4 engines and a rockomax 32... so not even the biggest engine; i escaped the solar system, from the launch pad... otherwise; damn, they are some gorgeous piece of engine

[trekkie_]

ok, i have one comment to make on this... damned they are powerful; using 4 engines and a rockomax 32... so not even the biggest engine; i escaped the solar system, from the launch pad... otherwise; damn, they are some gorgeous piece of engine

thanks for the comment.

last time I tested it, 720 units of fuel wouldn't get it out of kerbin's SOI. so larger tanks will definitely give it distance, but smaller individual tanks won't let it do too much.

yes, they'll primarily need to be flown with mechjeb if you want any real precision with smaller ships, and are primarily meant to be used as standalone engines. obviously, they can't move at FTL speeds, so power was the only option suitable, after all a trek style engine wouldn't seem all that trekky if it couldn't do much better than the stock engines. I configured them with aesthetics in mind, especially with heavy loads. so things you would transport to other planets, like moon bases and loads of rovers, and other visually pleasing design options (think artsy mothership) should eat away at its thrust and fuel a bit more.

the engine itself may eventually be updated with its own fuel and different thrust/ISP settings in the future. I mostly didn't do this so people could come up with their own design choices rather than slap on one or two or ten custom fuel tanks, and then have a bland ship made up of nothing but the engines, fuels tanks, and a command pod. I wanted people to be able to play around with the existing tank designs to create a variety of different looking ships, while leaving room for tons of non-functional design parts.

I encourage people to fiddle around with the config themselves if they want a different feel to it.

Edited May 18, 2013 by trekkie_

[zYnthethicz]

A couple of questions, is the round part/end of the nacelle supposed to be the exhaust? I mean, it looks like something from Star Trek, so i thought, "is this wrong or what?"

Also, it's quite hard to place on a ship, is it just me?

[JonoRig]

Yeah, i thought that might be the case, as theyre modelled on the warp nacelles, but its close to game breaking; and i was thinking itd be more of a vacuum impulse engines, like star trek ships have, but modelled on their more aesthetical part; not that this is a bad thing, any player with control can play it without breaking it; i did consider weakening my version just a little, before i realised those numbers mean nothing to me ; but ill def use them to make my stuff... pretty, cause, that; yeah, they just look fantastic

A couple of questions, is the round part/end of the nacelle supposed to be the exhaust? I mean, it looks like something from Star Trek, so i thought, "is this wrong or what?"

Also, it's quite hard to place on a ship, is it just me?

i had to use the non docking port, docking ports (in structural, forgot what they're called) and put about 6 struts on each for it to work for me

[trekkie_]

there's tips for easier attachment in the "how to use" section of the download page.

and yeah, I considered giving them a horrible atmospheric ISP, but then I remembered that warp nacelles bend space, which means whether you're in space or not, they should run exactly the same because it's all about warping space. then it just seemed really trivial to get something into space, if it's going to be powerful in space anyways....after all, most thrust is needed for take off, not space.

I kept in mind that in order to visit every planet, you'll need about 28K vacuum delta-v. that doesn't include landing and taking off from all of them. couple that with escape velocity from the sun, getting into a close orbit around the sun and leaving it, or jool too, etc. so with all that in perspective, the engine isn't as overpowered as it first seems, it's not even the most powerful engine mod so far either.

Edited May 18, 2013 by trekkie_

[JonoRig]

there's tips for easier attachment in the "how to use" section of the download page.

and yeah, I considered giving them a horrible atmospheric ISP, but then I remembered that warp nacelles bend space, which means whether you're in space or not, they should run exactly the same because it's all about warping space. then it just seemed really trivial to get something into space, if it's going to be powerful in space anyways....after all, most thrust is needed for take off, not space.

I kept in mind that in order to visit every planet, you'll need about 28K vacuum delta-v. that doesn't include landing and taking off from all of them. couple that with escape velocity from the sun, getting into a close orbit around the sun and leaving it, or jool too, etc. so with all that in perspective, the engine isn't as overpowered as it first seems, it's not even the most powerful engine mod so far either.

I thought BECAUSE they bend space, warp nacelles couldn't work in gravity too well; but then, im not that on top of the "science" or star trek TOS; and i cant think of any eps of the spin offs where they warp in atmo; but hey, its your mod, and what a mod haha; plus, its only pedanticness; if i use them, they'll be a 3rd or 4th stage engine really

[Panichio]

Finally, a nacelle that looks good!

Nice addon, man. I'd like to see what else you can make.

[BananaDealer]

I'd suggest lower thrust for such high Isp... 4k is... just... WOW!

Otherwise nice modelling...

[trekkie_]

been doing som test runs, perhaps I might lower the engine to somewhere around 1000-1500 thrust a piece, but with a still high-isp. still contemplating if atmospheric ISP will remain the same or not.

[BananaDealer]

been doing som test runs, perhaps I might lower the engine to somewhere around 1000-1500 thrust a piece, but with a still high-isp. still contemplating if atmospheric ISP will remain the same or not.

I'd recommend low atmo Isp (I doubt it's meant for atmospheric use). You can keep Vacuum Isp the same, just tone down thrust to something like 500 or lower... Anything higher and you risk the craft spinning...

[trekkie_]

I'd recommend low atmo Isp (I doubt it's meant for atmospheric use). You can keep Vacuum Isp the same, just tone down thrust to something like 500 or lower... Anything higher and you risk the craft spinning...

well you've got to take other things into account. for example, the stock LVN is I think 2~ tons and delivers 60 thrust. while the nacelle weighs 10 tons a piece (20 tons per 2). so each nacelle @ 1000 thrust would deliver a little under 20 times the thrust of a LVN but also weigh 5 times as much. or both together would weigh 10 times as much, while providing 20 times the thrust. for smaller ships, your suggestion wouldn't be a problem. but for a larger ship, it would still be painfully slow going even with the high ISP.

as for the atmospheric part, keep in mind these engines weigh 20 tons together, which would be the minimal starting weight for balance. since most normal engines only deliver something like 5-15% payload weight to orbit, to put 20 tons of engines into orbit would require something around a 200+ tons ship, all fuel, devoted primarily just to getting the engines into space. that doesn't even include whatever those engines are attached to, so we're looking at something like a 350 ton ship or something, which is a lot of parts and a lot of weight. the whole point of the engine is to kind of cut down on necessary part count. it can be difficult finding the right balance without being woefully underpowered or overpowered.

also take into account that someone might add multiples of these engines. so say someone designs an 8 nacelle engine with your recommendation, that would be 80 tons of engine for just 4000 thrust, not including the fuel or any other parts. even at a high ISP, the stock rockomax would provide 4500 thrust for 3 engines at 18 tons combined. its current ISP is something around 18 times the stock rockomax, but it would also weigh 4 times more.

but do rest assured, I am testing and taking everything into consideration to find a sweet spot. keep in mind, many testers said it actually needed more power and ISP, and also keep in mind that one doesn't have to use full throttle...sometimes it can be nice to have that extra thrust there, when it's needed. if you think about it, it's a different kind of balancing than normal.

also have other ideas. here's an example of what may be to come: kethane+fuel(small amount) to kilithium converter, the kilithium will act as a component similar to dilithium, and would be much like oxidizer. then tanks in the vab will be the antimatter. you would need both components in order to power your vessel, but the kilithium will run out much quicker. this would allow you to say, put one antimatter tank on the vessel that would last for say 50k or 100K dV, but the kilithium would last for something like 10K dv, so you would need more kilithium in order to keep going. just throwing around ideas off the top of my head.

if anyone wants to come up with a config/plugin system themselves, and I approve of how it's handled, I'll include it in the mod and give equal credit to the author.

Edited May 19, 2013 by trekkie_

[BananaDealer]

Hmm... You are right, I should be taking weight in mind, even though in space it's no as relative...

Yes, you don't necessary need to always be full throttle, but that only means you're using say 30% of the available thrust, which is effectively 1200 in this case. That does lead to longer burns and inherently inefficiency- power-to-thrust conversion wise... If I'm only gonna use 1/3 of the available thrust, I'd much rather have an engine that's more efficient at that thrust...

Also, not to mention MechJeb likes to punch it on manoeuvres that require large amounts of delta-v, which in this case would lead to possible spin (due to the mixture of high isp and high thrust). Similar to my first Lynx variant. It had upwards of 2k thrust and 5000 Isp, which made the craft spin no matter how much it weighed (I've tried them on as much as 400 tonnes).

I have still to try your nacelle on any actual craft, I'm just doing theoretical observations based on its' specs. Am gonna try it out today...

[JeBuSBrian]

I laughed out loud at "kilithium." You absolutely must do that!

Or... give me to the end of the day and I might do it for you.

[JonoRig]

I approve of kilithium; and from now on, my fuel when attached to these will be nicknamed as such

[JeBuSBrian]

So here are my thoughts on KerbTrek resources. I'm using ialdabaoth's Modular Parts plugin to make this simply a drop-in addition to your mod, without changing any of your files.

Resources

What I've done is make 3 resources: LiquidH2, AntiMatter, and Kilithium. H2 and AM are what the reactor actually combines for energy. Kilithium is simply used, as in Trek, to stabilize the reaction.

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
	name = LiquidH2
	density = 0.000444 // LH2 is super-light
	flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
	transfer = PUMP
}

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
	name = AntiMatter
	density = 0.000444 // We'll assume this is the anti-equivalent of LiquidH2
	flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
	transfer = PUMP
}

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
	name = Kilithium
	density = 0.019314 // Trek Dilithium is roughly 87x more massive than hydrogen, or 43.5x more massive than LiquidH2
	flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
	transfer = PUMP
}

Modular Parts

What I've done here is converted your original LFO mix to the modular parts spec. I've also added the M-AM+Kilithium reaction as an additional fuel configuration. I gave this reaction a 25% boost over the LFO mix, though both will probably need to be changed for balance.

warp1
{
	ADD
	{
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleEngineConfigs
			configuration = LiquidFuel+Oxidizer (4000 Thrust, 3000 Isp)
			modded = false
			CONFIG
			{
				name = LiquidFuel+Oxidizer (4000 Thrust, 3000 Isp)
				thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
				ehxaustDamage = false
				ignitionThreshold = 0.1
				minThrust = 0
				maxThrust = 4000
				heatProduction = 350
				PROPELLANT
				{
					name = LiquidFuel
					ratio = 0.9
					DrawGauge = True
				}
				PROPELLANT
				{
					name = Oxidizer
					ratio = 1.1
				}
				atmosphereCurve
				{
					key = 0 3000
					key = 1 3000
				}
			}
			CONFIG
			{
				name = Kilithium+AntiMatter (5000 Thrust, 4000 Isp)
				thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
				ehxaustDamage = false
				ignitionThreshold = 0.1
				minThrust = 0
				maxThrust = 5000
				heatProduction = 350
				PROPELLANT
				{
					name = Kilithium
					ratio = 0.2
					DrawGauge = True
				}
				PROPELLANT
				{
					name = AntiMatter
					ratio = 0.9
				}
				PROPELLANT
				{
					name = LiquidH2
					ratio = 0.9
				}
				atmosphereCurve
				{
					key = 0 4000
					key = 1 4000
				}
			}
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleAlternator	
			RESOURCE
			{
				name = ElectricCharge
				rate = 1.0
			}
		}
	}
	REPLACE
	{
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleEngines
			thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
			ehxaustDamage = false
			ignitionThreshold = 0.1
			minThrust = 0
			maxThrust = 4000
			heatProduction = 350
			PROPELLANT
			{
				name = LiquidFuel
				ratio = 0.9
				DrawGauge = True
			}
			PROPELLANT
			{
				name = Oxidizer
				ratio = 1.1
			}
			atmosphereCurve
			{
				key = 0 3000
				key = 1 3000
			}
		}
	}
}

Here is the kethane conversion modular spec. These will also need to be balanced. I can't say that these numbers are anything but arbitrarily picked out of thin air, based only loosely on the existing kethane resource conversion values. Kilithium is rare, so I made it the most inefficient I could bear. AntiMatter is also inefficient, simply because it's an unnatural state in comparison to everything else. LiquidH2, well... that you should get buckets-full of.

kethane.2m.converter
{
	ADD
	{
		MODULE
		{
			name = KethaneConverter
			TargetResource = Kilithium
			ConversionEfficiency = 0.1
			KethaneConsumption = 20
			PowerConsumption = 20
			HeatProduction = 1500
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = KethaneConverter
			TargetResource = LiquidH2
			ConversionEfficiency = 0.99
			KethaneConsumption = 16.5
			PowerConsumption = 10
			HeatProduction = 700
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = KethaneConverter
			TargetResource = AntiMatter
			ConversionEfficiency = 0.3
			KethaneConsumption = 20
			PowerConsumption = 20
			HeatProduction = 1500
		}
	}
}

MMI.K.Converter.Medium
{
	ADD
	{
		MODULE
		{
			name = KethaneConverter
			TargetResource = Kilithium
			ConversionEfficiency = 0.09
			KethaneConsumption = 6.6
			PowerConsumption = 10
			HeatProduction = 750
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = KethaneConverter
			TargetResource = LiquidH2
			ConversionEfficiency = 0.9
			KethaneConsumption = 5.5
			PowerConsumption = 5
			HeatProduction = 350
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = KethaneConverter
			TargetResource = AntiMatter
			ConversionEfficiency = 0.27
			KethaneConsumption = 6.6
			PowerConsumption = 10
			HeatProduction = 750
		}
	}
}

Thoughts? Concerns? Me blowing smoke?

Edit:

Also need to start thinking about storage tanks. AntiMatter Containment Pod... what do those look like?

Edited May 19, 2013 by JeBuSBrian