The Simple Heavy Lifting challenge.

[Ryu Gemini]

Jeb and the KSC have always been looking for newer and better lifters. Naturally, by "better" they mean "able to lift more." However, some of the engineers have apparently been going on strike on account of suffering eye damage from having to weld together 500 struts in some of the heaviest pieces of equipment currently available. Thusly, they decided to enlist your help to design lifters that aren't composed of 1000 parts that have to be welded together.

In a side dispute that may or may not interfere with the initiative, Jeb and Bob Kerman had an argument regarding the sensibility of using jets for a vertical lifting platform just the other day. A nearby engineer actually made things worse by constantly complaining about the stronger rockomax engine's annoying maintenance characteristics and overly loud noise. Long story short, much ado was said and done, and many kerbals present at the time got into the resulting brawl. Several of the kerbals apparently are serving as judges for this competition, so do be aware that size and simplicity aren't the only things being measured.

Stock and mechjeb only. In fact, we strongly recommend mechjeb or a non-parts plugin that similarly tells you your current mass so you can see the final mass of your orbital object. If you lack any such tool, You must instead show that whatever you used as the "proof payload" does not have any fuel missing from it.

Rules and such:

You must get into an orbit in which the lowest approach to Kerbin is at an altitude of 100k or higher. Then, look at your vessel's mass after achieving this.

Your end mass multiplied by your multiplier is your score. i.e. if you get a 60% multiplier (from, say, 4 +20%s and 1 -20%) and get 100 tons into orbit, your score is 160. Your multiplier is determined by what you see below, cumulative for all that apply. In other words, if you have a 650 parts, you incur both a -10% and a -20% penalty (and the reverse for a 350 part vessel). As mentioned above, some of the judges may still be cranky about minor details from yesterday's incident. Just think of it as some fun guidelines to follow.

(for parts counts, if you by some odd chance are off by just one and have mechjeb onboard, you can pretend mechjeb isn't there)

500 parts or less. +10%

400 parts or less. +20%

300 parts or less. +20%

200 parts or less. +20%

100 parts or less. +30%

Use more then 550 parts. -10%

Use more then 600 parts. -20%

Use more then 700 parts. -40%

Use more then 800 parts. -60%

Uses no Jet engines. +20%

Uses a solid booster. -20% (sepatrons are not counted)

Use no "mainsail" engines. +20%

Use no rockomax-size engines at all. +10%

Spent decoupled stages do not enter stable orbits. +10%

Has docking ports, is capable of being refueled by other vessels. +10%

Has not only docking ports, but also RCS systems and remains controllable for any duration. In other words, it can do the refueling itself. +10%

Lower orbit (orbit is goes lower then 99km): -30%

Functionality bonus: +10% or +20% or +30%. This does not have a "set" criteria, and is decided by the the space program executives. Things that will factor into this include whether or not the ship can serve as more then just a fuel bucket or an interplanetary tug. For instance, can it land on another planet? Can it get off said planet when done there? Can it do anything else particularly interesting? Note that for this criteria, it CAN make use of other vessels to accomplish them. For instance, it CAN be towed to another planet to land on and explore by another ship, and doesn't have to make it under its own power, and it CAN be refueled before it flies off to/lands on another planet under its own power. You will most likely be seeing 10s and 20s here. We will only award a 30 for something truly exceptional. If you qualify for this, we will mention when we update the scoreboard.

Evidence of the functionality performing as intended is recommended.

Technically, there is also: "Jeb is on board. +999%." As well as "Jeb is on board. -999%." But at that point we told them they were getting ridiculous and pointed an ion engine at them to scare them off. I love how superstitious they get about that thing. Hell, even Jeb gets freaked out by the thing ever since we put that dark flowing cloak on it. Jeb has also been eating a lot of garlic recently. We think he may be confused about which superstition he is supposed to be applying to the engine.

But we're getting off track. You have the criteria. Let the games begin. One of the judges by the way insists that if Jeb is on board, that you place an ion engine somewhere he can see it.

Main Scores:

1. tavert: 395.7

2. PolecatEZ: 245.6

3. m1xte: 224.8

4. Innuce: 109.8

Special Mentions for particularly interesting craft (qualitative):

Optional challenge scores:

Heavy-lifting Space-planes (scores calculated the same way as normal rockets):

1.

Non-stock allowed (only balanced mods though):

Please list the mods you used when you submit for this section.

1.

Absolute heaviest lifter (lets see if we can get to a kiloton):

High end comp may be necessary, scores for this are simply the tonnage you get up into any stable orbit.

1.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Ryu Gemini

[m1xte]

Ill present you the Extra hevi

281t to orbit

-30% Launcher is more than 700 parts. Payload is 97 parts.

+20% No jets

+20% Spent stages deorbited

309 Points

Boring nightside pictures for scoring

http://imgur.com/a/nKUQ8

Try this with your aspargus launcher.

http://imgur.com/a/0IxcP

And the present that i promised.

Extra Hevi.craft

Edited May 18, 2013 by m1xte

[tavert]

Your end mass multiplied by your multiplier is your score. i.e. if you get a 60% multiplier (from, say, 3 +20%s and 1 -20%) and get 100 tons into orbit, your score is 160. Your multiplier is determined by what you see below, cumulative for all that apply.

You mean 4 +20%s and 1 -20%? And are you going by the payload definition that you can't count any fuel tanks or engines that were used in getting to orbit?

m1xte, multipliers are cumulative so I think you should also get -10% for over 500 parts and -20% for over 600 parts.

[soranno]

hmmm. perhaps if the point is to get more up with fewer parts, greater penalties for high parts counts are in order.

failing that, higher bonuses for low part counts, but I expect the former will have more effect.

[sturmstiger]

Not as entries to the challenge - my heavy lifters of the Modular Medium/Heavy Lift ELV Family has very parts. For example, the 76ton-to-LKO variant has only 35 parts. However it has no Super Heavy Lift (>100 ton to LKO) variants.

[Shuttle]

I don't understand how part count and payload is calculated. My rocket consists of 160 parts, payload is another 10 parts and 8 launch clamps. When I reach a stable 100*100 orbit, my whole vehicle is ~200 tons - 161 tons is payload that is separated and 39 tons is empty fuel tanks of the second stage.

So, is my rocket 161 tons/180 parts or 200 tons/160 parts or...?

[PolecatEZ]

180 tons +20% for ~400 parts, +20% for no jets, and +20% for decoupled stages de-orbiting. = 288 points

If I can bump it up to 205 tons I may be able to win this one. I'll keep trying.

Enjoy. Mammoth SHLV

[GusTurbo]

What's the best way to keep a heavy payload from crushing lower stages? I always find that when lifting huge things, the compression always destroys something, generally where two fuel tanks are connected.

[PolecatEZ]

Generally its not the direct pressure, but the shear (sliding of parts creating uneven pressure). Directly strapping things via struts keeps the sliding down, as does turning off the gimbaling on most engines. You can see in my example above how each tank is strapped together with 2 vertical struts, which keeps it from sliding. Also, external engine gimbals are turned off. I did another trick where the central pressure from the main payload is distributed outward to the 4 main booster assemblies. Finally, try to not use anything other than SAS and fuel tanks in your stack, RCS tanks really like to explode under pressure.

[m1xte]

If I can bump it up to 205 tons I may be able to win this one. I'll keep trying.

I tested this. It gives nice and solid flight.

Overloaded it suffers from lack of TWR.

I suggest to add one mainsail in the middle column so the central stage burns with 5 mainsails.

Add "overheat prevention fuel tanks" also to the aspargus section so there is no need to throttle down because of overheating.

[PolecatEZ]

223 tons + no jets (20%) + de-orbit (20%) = 312 points

Parts count is ~500, so I think that's a break even.

I'll clean up this version and add it to the company catalogue. I had a lot of dV leftover, theoretically it could be good for up to 250 or so payload - the circ turn and burn is the big issue. Even with 4 stacked RCS on each end and 8 total command pods for torque, it barely made it in time for 80x80.

[m1xte]

Anybody up for a little sub challenge?

Make a kiloton launcher.

Payload must be separated to stable orbit and it must be only a dummy weight (no engines, only full fueltanks, stuctural parts and a probe core)

Mine is still working like an Random explosion generator. (aka. aspargus launcher) Needs more struts.

http://i.imgur.com/gWBZJcP.jpg

[Ryu Gemini]

You mean 4 +20%s and 1 -20%? And are you going by the payload definition that you can't count any fuel tanks or engines that were used in getting to orbit?

m1xte, multipliers are cumulative so I think you should also get -10% for over 500 parts and -20% for over 600 parts.

Correct on both accounts. Fixed that error in my math now. Getting over 700 parts means you take both the 10% and the 20% hit.

To clarify another question, this is not payload-based. The mass that counts is the TOTAL VESSEL that makes it into orbit. Including any stages not yet jetisoned at that point, or any empty/partially empty tanks you are hauling along with you (naturally, the mass remaining is what matters, so it is recommended you have mechjeb or a plugin that informs you of the mass you presently have, NOT the mass the tanks would have if they were still full).

As mentioned, struts are friends to many-a-rocketeer. Which makes it an engineering challenge to put enough in to keep your rig together, but no so many as to have hundreds of them cluttering your rocket's part count with.

Edit: Sure, we can have a secondary side-challenge for those with good computers to see the heaviest thing they can get into orbit on a single launch.

I'll make edits to the main post to start up the score area sometime in the next day or two.

One more edit: Just a reminder, the orbital height being used here is 100k, not 75k.

.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Ryu Gemini

[m1xte]

To clarify another question, this is not payload-based. The mass that counts is the TOTAL VESSEL that makes it into orbit. Including any stages not yet jetisoned at that point, or any empty/partially empty tanks you are hauling along with you (naturally, the mass remaining is what matters, so it is recommended you have mechjeb or a plugin that informs you of the mass you presently have, NOT the mass the tanks would have if they were still full)..

The problem is that two jumbos and mainsail makes SSTO

I see myself already strapping 166 mainsails, 332 jumbos and pod together.

[Ryu Gemini]

That is true on paper. However, the physics engine is not the most forgiving thing with that sort of construct.

Since all collumns would have similar thrust to their individual weights, there wouldn't be a huge amount of sheer stress (at least while the gimbals point straight down), but this vessel would be quite wide and there would be one that is slightly lower (the one with the command part). Who knows how that would affect things during the burn over a particularly wide vessel. Gimballing or not, it would also be difficult to turn this massive thing. And then of course is the question of how well it will rest on the ground without blowing itself up (setting it on launch towers would induce far too much sheer so that is out).

Part of the concept is effectively that whatever you put up there can then be used for getting other places, either as a ship that needs to be refueled first, or as a bunch of fuel tanks that can do said refueling (this is not to say you can't also use them to put stations up). That is part of the reason I went with the 100km limit too, it makes a better "general purpose" benchmark orbit.

Actually, considering that, I decided to modify the rules slightly. Removed the nuclear engine penalty (which no one currently has incurred yet anyway). Also, the spent stage de-orbit bonus is now 10% down from 20%, but there is a new bonus of 10% if you have ports and can refuel or be refueled. Scores up to this point will remain valid, partly due to the fact that they could effectively remain the same by sticking a few small docking ports on them. Also changed the first high-part penalty to 550, so there is a little bit of buffer room between the bonuses and penalties. Also added a lower-orbit penalty so I can properly count polecat's submission (and to make the 100km requirement a little more visible).

Updated the scores section with what is currently done (m1x misinterpretted the part count penalties slightly, so I adjusted for that). There is now a pair of challenge sections for spaceplanes that follow these rules, and for the good old absolute heaviest lifter sub-challenge suggested earlier.

[Innuce]

Just saw this post today. Happened to make a video last night for a craft I'm just doing on my own...

I used Jet Engines for the first stage, then it's Nuclear, Radial, and RCS from there. 233 tons, 596 parts on the launch pad. About 73.2 ton craft leftover at 100Km circularized orbit. I'm sure you'll find it interesting.

Here's the vid...

[Ryu Gemini]

With the improved efficiency of .20, anyone able to build their ships bigger then before?

[tavert]

I'll bite: http://imgur.com/a/dOuay#0

Skippers are much better behaved than Mainsails.

Not counting MechJeb, I have 100 parts:

- command pod

- docking port

- 19 jumbo tanks

- 19 skippers

- 18 decouplers (4 of which weren't actually necessary)

- 18 fuel lines

- 24 struts

Mass in orbit: 146.56 tons

Bonuses:

- <= 500 parts, +10%

- <= 400 parts, +20%

- <= 300 parts, +20%

- <= 200 parts, +20%

- <= 100 parts, +30%

- no jets, +20%

- <= 7 mainsails, +10%

- no mainsails, +20%

- decoupled stages don't enter stable orbits, +10%

- has a docking port, +10%

If I can add correctly, that totals +170%. So my score is 146.56 * 2.7 = 395.712.

I could maybe double this design and maintain comparable mass fraction, but this was enough fuel-line routing for now.

[Ryu Gemini]

Alright, time for updates. Making some changes to account for changes that came with .20. Naturally, previous scores will retain their validity, with one exception noted below. From henceforth, the mainsail criteria have been altered such that they now are 20% for no mainsails, and 10% for no rockomax-sized engines, period (i.e. no poodles and skippers).

A new 10% boost is added. Basically, the previous docking port thing has been verbally altered slightly to reflect that it means it can be refueled by other vessels, as opposed to its previous description which indicated it can be both refueled AND do the refueling to another ship itself.

The new boost is for ships that can viably do the refueling as well. In other words, it has at least some RCS thrusters, an RCS tank, and remains controllable for the forseeable future (i.e. it has either a probe with power generation systems available, or it has kerbals controlling it).

One special new criteria, which isn't as well defined as the other, is the new "functionality" boost, which is either 10, 20, or 30% and determined by me. Basically, its based upon the orbital vessel's usefulness for things other then just being a fueler or interplanetary tug. For this criteria, I have made a single retro-active scoring upgrade for Innuce's ship, and assumed that it can indeed release that lander-thing to land on the mun with a 10% boost. I felt it was safe enough to do this without issue, as he currently has the lowest score regardless on account of not actually designing his ship for this challenge (and as such I will make the assumption it ended up working well-enough). Nice looking lander-thing by the way.

Just be aware that for future applications, some evidence of the functionality in question working is preferred. Also, do look at the actual fence-o-text regarding it in the updated main post, as it allows some special actions, such as the use of another ship in order for it to actually use its functionality (just note that functionality scores are based on the ship you got up, not the helper and any features it may have).

Also, nice min-maxing there tavert. The skipper really is surprisingly awesome (a realization which resulted in me altering the scoring slightly, though your entry is naturally not effected). Its not super-powerful, sure, but it doesn't burn as fast or dangerously as those mainsails. In the lower atmosphere, excess power is actually a bit of a waste on account of air resistance, so mainsails are actually more wasteful then their ISP indicates in some cases. That can be dealt with by not using them at full throttle of course, but skippers are a nice alternative way of dealing with it.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Ryu Gemini

[Innuce]

Hello!

Thanks for the compliments on my craft. I kind of stumbled onto your thread, and was amused that I was using a heavy lifter stage for my weird interplanetary craft.

I have indeed landed this thing on the Mun, lifted off (leaving no junk/rovers behind on the Mun), and re-docked to the fueling station. It even has parachutes for re-entry to Kerbin complete, or can be detached right down to the command module (complete with it's own parachute and lander legs). I have made many upgrades and improvements since my video. This craft, in theory, is a heavy lifter, refueler, tug, space station, lander, rover, and even capable of rescue missions having extra seating capacity. All without leaving space debris or stages left behind on other planets (other than detaching in a degrading orbit).

Here's Jeb on the highest elevation of the Mun with the original lander in the background. Oops, flat tire!

This is a newer lander. I moved the command module to the bottom, added more chutes, and moved the rockets to radial mounts. Lower profile.

The most current screenshot I have. The basic craft/refueler docked to a refueler. Having problems controlling craft after docking.

Sadly, things got kind of stalled since I discovered a docking bug with radial mounting docking ports. My intention was to attach another Jumbo fuel tank to each side of the main one to triple it's capacity, but finding the controls get locked up after docking, and the craft wobbles like crazy. Kind of wondering if it's because of the complexity of my craft.

The Support forum is blaming MechJeb2, but I'm not so sure. So I been spending alot of time looking for the source of the problem and a workaround, if any.

[xandalis]

Well, I think I'll take a stab at this. Still tweaking (also read as fighting with the VAB, I've suddenly been plagued with a string of corrupted .craft files) a version of an existing lifter I use, that's more in-line with the challenge (it's still part-heavy b*tch). So, expect my entry soon... *scurries back to KSP*

[Atanar]

This challanges method of scoring is highly flawed. It calculates empty tank as payload. "Yeah, I build a craft that puts 20 empty orange tanks into orbit, that must be very useful".

[xandalis]

This challanges method of scoring is highly flawed. It calculates empty tank as payload. "Yeah, I build a craft that puts 20 empty orange tanks into orbit, that must be very useful".

Well, if the tanks (empty or full) are still part of the final payload that remains in orbit... they are still part of the payload, therefore calculated into the final mass. Besides, if you plan on later sending up smaller loads of fuel to transfer into it, tada! Self-serve Space Fuel station. Useful for finding out just how long Bill and Bob CAN stand to be stuck in a capsule with Jeb...

[Nao]

Agree with Atanar :3

But lets see how bad is it anyway!

Mass in orbit: 362,23t

multipilier 100parts (101 with MJ) = 100%

no jet engines = 20%

no spent stages in orbit (or at all) = 10%

docking port = 10%

functionality = -999% (welp, it's not that bad as it has two orange tanks full, and it could pass for an fuel depot )

Jeb on board = +999%

Sum 362,23 * 2,4 = 869, not bad

[Innuce]

Reducing this challenge to "let's see who can launch the most empty fuel tanks into orbit" seems cheap to me. So I agree, the scoring is flawed.

I would add some kind of requirement that the final "payload" not be a bunch of empty fuel tanks strapped together. I would emphasize the "payload" be something useful rather than empty fuel tanks. A payload would be defined as delivering something, such as fuel, or crew, or an interplanetary craft. Perhaps even penalizing for emptied fuel tanks.

But one could argue that the empty fuel tanks indeed are the payload if your mission is to build some uber refueling station.