Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[DBowman]

I added the second entry to my "Deeply Duna" Mission Report: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/113541-Deeply-Duna-a-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission-Architecture-Challenge-Mission-Report?p=1807189&viewfull=1#post1807189

The summary is that I've settled on a rough fuel and engine mass for my DKXV and shown it can aerocapture at Duna and Kerbin.

• Rely on Duna in-situ resource processing to produce fuel and oxidizer ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct and many others), this means:
  
• Once the program is established: the DKXV will fuel at Duna, go to Kerbin, and then push 75 ton of payload back to Duna. Rinse and repeat. KLV-75 will lift 'no fuel'.
  
• A little over 3/4 of an Orange tank for each Duna-Kerbin-Duna cycle using 4 nukes.
  
• Engines first aerocapture worked 'fine' when I did a test run with a sketch build under Deadly Reentry. The engines didn't get too hot and the payload was well shielded and stayed cool, though Kerbin was pushing back much harder than gentle Duna.
  

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The mission report post includes some details about how I worked out the fuel required to cover Crew Safety and the DK no payload but full of fuel & KD 75 ton payload.

Next I want to sketch out the first flight, targeting:

• Crew Safety via unassisted immediate return from LDO and Duna surface.
  
• Crew Safety via life support to cover a missed Kerbin Duna Hohmann transfer.
  
• and as much non Crew Safety as will fit.
  

Edited March 27, 2015 by DBowman

[vosechu]

This is outstanding DBowman! So much more thorough than my DRE entry. I didn't try to aerocapture or anything, so it's cool to see someone go at this with a real eye for doing it right.

It'd be so interesting to see this sort of thing done with Realism Overhaul, but I fear that it wouldn't really be possible. Do you have any experience with it? I can barely get to the Moon in RO so I fear for my capabilities to get to Mars.

[Mesklin]

Here is first post about my mission for this challenge (more details is here)

Big rocket for this mission "Zhar-ptitsa" (fire-bird in English).

Rated for 160t payload (100x100 km orbit)

Vehicle mass: 739 t

Details: 78

Stages: 2

1-st stage mass: 493 t (percent of launch vehicle mass 67%)

2-st stage mass: 246 t

Interval between launches: 240 days

Reusable first stage (soft landing on the water near KSC with parachutes and basic jets engines)

First stage dry (landing) mass ~100t

I am planning to send 32 kerbonauts in the first launch and arrive Dune at Day 90.

P.S. I was really pushed up and took additional inspiration from DBowman's mission Dash 4 Duna

[DBowman]

Mesklin - what is the rainbow pork-chop mod I see in your screenshot? (for a laugh google 'ksp eex') IBA I could't find either?

vosechu - I'd never looked at the details of RO, thanks for the link it looks really interesting. I guess I've been kind of gradually/piecemeal going in that direction. I do like the stock aesthetic - where a Kerbol could imagine building a Jool return vessel in the back garden (check out ziv's Jool challenge, low mass division). I'll have to give RO a try sometime. I think it would need a 'refreshed' version of this challenge since the demands would be so different. Having some 'divisions' would also make sense, for example: robots & rovers, 'manned plant the flag', 'manned big science', & 'colonize'.

[Mesklin]

DBowman,

EEX - Editor Extensions (very, very good mod, without this mod I can't imagine my KSP activities in VAB and SPH)

Rainbow square - Transfer Window Planner mod (from TriggerTech), now it is obsolete if you are using MechJeb2. I simply forgot delete it.

IBA - Intake Build Aid mod (very good for make space planes)

[Mesklin]

My flight plan (see details here):

Until Day 0500: 3 Launches, 480 tons on LKO, Early Mission Value = 18816 Efficiency = 39.2 (thanks DBowman for pointing about this my miscalculations)

Until Day 1000: 5 Launches, 800 tons on LKO, Sustained Mission Value = 65088 Efficiency = 81.36

Achievements Score = 6 (Mission Execution 0, Crew Mobility 2, Base Mobility 2, Crew Safety 0, Mission Robustness 2)

Edited March 31, 2015 by Mesklin

[Mesklin]

Links to mission reports

Space tug: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/114129-Red-Star-Duna-mission-report-about-my-entry-for-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission?p=1812421&viewfull=1#post1812421

Expeditions packs: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/114129-Red-Star-Duna-mission-report-about-my-entry-for-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission?p=1812635&viewfull=1#post1812635

Space tug "Parom":

Brief stats:

Purposes: orbit and interplanetary operatons, unlimited fuel with full set of kethane extraction equipment (drill, converter, scanner). Kethane conversion process powered by Kethane electric generator (only 0.3t weight) - it is more then 2 times lighter then pair of big solar panels.

Equipped with heat shield that rated for Minmus->Kerbin aerobreak (for Dune->Kerbin trip you are really don't need for aerobreaking - tug without payload has enormous deltaV)

Fully fueled mass: 74.78t

Dry mass: 20.78t

Details: 45

Engines : LV-N x4

DeltaV with 130 t payload: 2734 m/s

Kerbin TWR with 130 t payload: 0.12 (not big, I know)

DeltaV without payload: 10161 m/s

Maximum refueling time: 10h

Slight more pics you can find in this imgur album

Edited March 30, 2015 by Mesklin

[Mesklin]

Modular shuttle for the next Dune system operations:

* Crew transfer between surface and orbit;

* Supply transfer from orbit to surface;

* Short expeditions to Ike with help from space tug.

Delivered to Dune with empty fuel tanks and should be refueled before use.

Brief specs:

Engines: LV-909x4

With 2 passengers modules:

Fully fueled: 39.49t

Dry: 23.49t

Details: 63

DeltaV: 1989 m/s

Maximum passengers: 32

Autonomy with 32 crew members: 9.7 Days

Without payload:

Fully fueled: 27.05t

Dry: 11.05t

Details: 43

DeltaV: 3428 m/s

Maximum crew on board: 8

Autonomy with 8 crew members: 38.8 Days

Rated payload delivered to Dune surface: 20t

Rated payload delivered to Dune surface and then back to orbit: 14t

More pics see in imgur album

[Mesklin]

And finally let me introduce crew transport ship (aka return ship), designed for transport 32 kerbonauts to Dune and back to Kerbin orbit (replacement crew). 4 full size supply containers can be easily attached to the ship (usually food for expedition for the next 1100 days).

Brief stats:

Vacuum only operations (not designed for aerobreaks)

Mass: 86.84t

Details: 64

Nominal crew: 32

Food autonomy: 300 days (Kerbin-Duna-Kerbin travel average time)

Autonomy (with 32 crew members):

O2 + Water: Unlimited (full recycling)

Emergency autonomy (with broken one set of recycling system):

O2 + Water: 300 days

[DBowman]

vosechu had done some good work assembling recent work on this challenge. I've been working on Deeply Duna, but I know it will take a good while - and I guess thats part of the fun.

It struck me that I could hack something together based on the Duna Ascent Vehicle I posted here earlier. Keep it small, simple, executable, and maybe also test out a few things I was going to use in Deeply Duna.

The mission report is here http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/115188-Dinky-Duna-a-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission-Architecture-Challenge-Mission-Report.

There are some 'options' in the flight plan where I could go for score or efficiency. I'd like to pick the 'just one launch' option 1482@43 Early and 3588@104 Sustained - but I think it doesn't really meet the 'continuous occupation' criteria (though if I sent it on the second window I guess it would - but with lower score and efficiency...). I think I have to pick my plan #4 for 5412@26 Early, 17623@85 Sustained.

The Achievements scoring is clear at least - I think I hit a full 12 points. And the craft is kind of cute. I guess I should include a pic here:

A few things you guys might be interested in / can help me with:

• KAS seemed to 'eat my ship'. I wanted to use pipe to transfer fuel, so:
  
  • I 'got' a pipe from craft 1,
    
  • walked to craft2,
    
  • attached there (I forget which option, or if there was ore than one choice),
    
  • at that point the game started treating 1&2 like one craft,
    
  • I didn't worry 'docking' I thought,
    
  • when I 'disconnected' I could not switch to craft 1,
    
  • I quick save & reloaded,
    
  • craft one was gone - only the fuel tank I had connected from was there floating in the air...
    
  • either I've messed up somehow - or KAS is at best 'flaky'
    

I thought I'd call it out in case anyone was about to use KAS without testing it first. Anyone have a similar experience?

• I used 'Duna Direct' mod, it does Sabatier reaction to make fuel - nice. Does any one know of others / similar that pull out O2 (it's chemically doable). How about in situ water on Duna? I'd been discounting it since we think it's mainly only on the poles, but I think there possibilities of harvesting water from soil chemicals?
  

• I was about to go through TAC and make a spreadsheet of wet/dry container masses and figure out the consumption rates ,and recycling rates etc - does anyone know if I've just not found someone else's work?
  

• It seems like a weakness that the scoring tempts you to mess with the boundary conditions of a 'permanent' 'continuous occupation' challenge - it doesn't make sense it should reward you for not flying the last window for example. It seems like either it should be scored on some measure of 'steady state' score and efficiency, like once it's 'up and running' whats the average Kerbals on Duna and that per ton - would it be hard to figure a scoring system like that? Also it's fun to do a limited duration missions - e.g. having 'divisions' like max 500/750/1000 Earth days away, or weight classes - what do you all think? at some point 'someone' should 'refresh' this challenge to bring the times to Kerbin days (just so we don't have to keep converting back and forth and noting which we were using when).
  

• I watched this the other night:
  Zubrin on Mars Semi Direct, pretty good, he makes some funny comments as well as getting so het up he can barely get his words out.
  

cheers,

DBowman

[vosechu]

vosechu had done some good work assembling recent work on this challenge. I've been working on Deeply Duna, but I know it will take a good while - and I guess thats part of the fun.

It struck me that I could hack something together based on the Duna Ascent Vehicle I posted here earlier. Keep it small, simple, executable, and maybe also test out a few things I was going to use in Deeply Duna.

The mission report is here http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/115188-Dinky-Duna-a-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission-Architecture-Challenge-Mission-Report.

There are some 'options' in the flight plan where I could go for score or efficiency. I'd like to pick the 'just one launch' option 1482@43 Early and 3588@104 Sustained - but I think it doesn't really meet the 'continuous occupation' criteria (though if I sent it on the second window I guess it would - but with lower score and efficiency...). I think I have to pick my plan #4 for 5412@26 Early, 17623@85 Sustained.

The Achievements scoring is clear at least - I think I hit a full 12 points. And the craft is kind of cute. I guess I should include a pic here:

Any chance you can format that like this? I wasn't sure what you wanted you final score to be.

vosechu: Duna on a budget

Until Day 0500: 2 Launches, 60 tons NIMLKO, Early Mission Value: 1058, Efficiency: 17.63

Until Day 1000: 4 Launches, 120 tons NIMLKO, Sustained Mission Value: 2256, Efficiency: 18.8

Crew Mobility 0, Base Mobility 0, Crew Safety 0, Mission Robustness 1

Mods: MKS/OKS, TACLS, NEAR, DRE, Proc Parts/Fairings, Tweakscale, RealChutes, Kethane, RCS Build Aid, Astronomer's Visual Pack, Kerbal Alarm Clock, Mechjeb/KER, Ambient Light Adjustment

A few things you guys might be interested in / can help me with:

• KAS seemed to 'eat my ship'. I wanted to use pipe to transfer fuel, so:
  
  • I 'got' a pipe from craft 1,
    
  • walked to craft2,
    
  • attached there (I forget which option, or if there was ore than one choice),
    
  • at that point the game started treating 1&2 like one craft,
    
  • I didn't worry 'docking' I thought,
    
  • when I 'disconnected' I could not switch to craft 1,
    
  • I quick save & reloaded,
    
  • craft one was gone - only the fuel tank I had connected from was there floating in the air...
    
  • either I've messed up somehow - or KAS is at best 'flaky'
    

I thought I'd call it out in case anyone was about to use KAS without testing it first. Anyone have a similar experience?

I haven't experienced that with KAS but I have experienced oddities with craft that are landed and suddenly they're connected to each other via KAS. I've started using anchors in KAS or the base module from MKS to rectify this. Kerbal Joint Reinforcement might also help a little bit since it does some work to stabilize physics when things change drastically.

• I used 'Duna Direct' mod, it does Sabatier reaction to make fuel - nice. Does any one know of others / similar that pull out O2 (it's chemically doable). How about in situ water on Duna? I'd been discounting it since we think it's mainly only on the poles, but I think there possibilities of harvesting water from soil chemicals?
  

My understanding is that while there isn't much water in the soil on Mars, there is plenty of chemicals that can be reacted to create water. The Kethane mod worked really well for me. I don't recall if the Kethane mod does O2, but the MKS modules do some reactions with other things to create Oxygen.

• I was about to go through TAC and make a spreadsheet of wet/dry container masses and figure out the consumption rates ,and recycling rates etc - does anyone know if I've just not found someone else's work?
  

I did a graph a couple pages ago that might be helpful but I'm not sure if I still have the consumption rates. But I didn't do the recycler rates so my numbers might not be helpful anyways. I was really interested to know how it compared to some of the other methods though so I'd love to see your research.

• It seems like a weakness that the scoring tempts you to mess with the boundary conditions of a 'permanent' 'continuous occupation' challenge - it doesn't make sense it should reward you for not flying the last window for example. It seems like either it should be scored on some measure of 'steady state' score and efficiency, like once it's 'up and running' whats the average Kerbals on Duna and that per ton - would it be hard to figure a scoring system like that? Also it's fun to do a limited duration missions - e.g. having 'divisions' like max 500/750/1000 Earth days away, or weight classes - what do you all think? at some point 'someone' should 'refresh' this challenge to bring the times to Kerbin days (just so we don't have to keep converting back and forth and noting which we were using when).
  

As you know, I've been thinking about doing an RO version of this challenge. If you think of an alternative scoring system I'd love to hear it. This challenge is so old I doubt it'll change at this point, but it's fun to think about this stuff regardless.

• I watched this the other night:
  Zubrin on Mars Semi Direct, pretty good, he makes some funny comments as well as getting so het up he can barely get his words out.
  

Super rad, I'll check it out tonight! (Yeah, I'm that guy at the bar watching space videos...)

[DBowman]

Oh good point re the scoring

BBowman: Dinky Duna

Until Day 0500: Launches 6, 207 ton LKO, Early Mission Value:5314, Efficiency: 26

Until Day 1000: Launches 6, 207 ton LKO, Sustained Mission Value: 17623, Efficiency: 85

Mission Execution 3, Crew Mobility 2, Base Mobility 3, Crew Safety 2, Mission Robustness 2

Mods: Deadly Reentry, TACLS, Duna Direct (in-situ fuel refining), KAS (for resource xfer), Mechjeb, Kerbal Engineer, Kerbal Alarm Clock, EVE, Enhanced NavBall (re-size and position)

( btw what is NIMLKO compared to LKO? I'll fix up the above if required )

I'll have a think about scoring. One way to avoid boundary conditions is to have the scoring window be a subset of the 'program window'; e.g. program has to go for 3000 days and you score on a fixed 4 transfer window in that.

[vosechu]

Nimlko is how much payload you intend to deliver to LKO. Even if your lifter could technically lift more, it's an arbitrary limit that we place on ourselves for the score. In theory we build lifters that can only make it exactly to LKO, so that if we need to lift more than our chosen amount the payload has to do the rest of the circularization burn. But this has other problems, like its hard to pack extra fuel for a reusable lifter to deorbit.

I like what you said about number of windows. If I recall, if you count up to the day 1015 there's exactly 4 windows. I wonder if the intention was not fully permanent, but a theoretical "permanent" that's only staffed as long as there's science and money to carry it. Could be interesting to add in some rules about what happens if the program is defunded (as seems to be common, and is also why NASA buys rocket contracts years ahead of time even if they might not need them). What do you think about that extension?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I've been doing this is ro and its brutally hard! Mars is like 23k deltav. I see why people are thinking about a one way trip!! I don't know if I'll be able to propose this challenge if I can't do it myself.

[vosechu]

Also, also, dbowman, congratulations!!! You totally deserve a new mission patch. I love your mission report and your planning. Super wonderful job thinking it out.

I find myself reinvigorated once again!

[DBowman]

"I like patches" (Idiocracy reference) seriously though, I do - we certainly need a DPOMAC patch.

I found this http://i.imgur.com/AAGJvD1.png

is it accurate? the 23k is for two-way?

It's probably okay to make a challenge you have not yourself overcome? I mean 'men on mars' is doable, so RO should be doable.

You'd probably have more fun if there were a few people pushing for it also. You could set some incremental milestones; probe landing, sats, etc. Maybe some 'tech levels' also; apollo style, stock nukes, Von Braun style, ... IT would make it easier for people to take on what they liked the sound of. Sort of a matrix of challenges, like Death Engineering's Constellation Challenge http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/51965-Constellation-Space-Program-Three-Part-Challenge.

Also you could 'own' the OP and add some posts for references to useful info and 'mod gotchas' etc to help contenders out.

On the downside it's dilution of attention, though maybe a 'Duna refresh' could be folded in?

[vosechu]

Holy moley, so many of my challenges fit into that beautiful post. I've been trying to find a place for them to live since some of them are small (unlike the Mars w/ RO challenge). Thank you for pointing out the thread!

Yeah, 23k is likely. That's counting some aerobrakes too. I've done some rough calculations that put me upwards of 28k including landing. Turns out real space is a lot harder than KSP!

I like your idea of a Duna refresh. We could have one category for doing it via RO and one category for stock. I've started up a second thread to discuss it so we don't frustrate all the people in here (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/115535-Planning-thread-for-Realism-Overhaul-Mars-mission?p=1835886#post1835886)

[meve12]

snip

Just a thought; could you retrofit the Tindalos crew section with a Galatea after the first mission?

[Doc]

So I've started on this challenge a half dozen times, but get distracted (constantly). Here is my mission that actually should -actually- finish.

Mods:

DRE

FAR

KW Rocketry

Mechjeb

TAC Life

Infernal Robotics

I use standard reusable lifter that puts ~38 tons to LKO with each flight, and an 8 kerbal crew lifter.

All missions comply with the ...

<to be continuted>

[vosechu]

So I've started on this challenge a half dozen times, but get distracted (constantly). Here is my mission that actually should -actually- finish.

<to be continuted>

Welcome back Doc! You aren't alone in getting distracted; most of the people still posting here are in the same camp.

Mild distraction reminder, 1.0 is coming out within the next couple weeks so it may be wise to backup your game folder lest it auto update, break all your mods, and delay you once again. happened to me with 0.90.

Enjoy yourself, we look forward to seeing your innovations even if you never finish the whole thing.

[DBowman]

I've finished the prototyping and testing for the "Mobile Home" style bases (Thanks to vosechu for the reference to Mars DRA5, interesting reading).

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/113541-Deeply-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission-Architecture-Mobile-Home-Development-and-Testing?p=1843883#post1843883

Here's a shot something going wrong:

and something going right (35 degrees - where can it not go? tell me and I'll see ... ):

[meyst]

Looks like this is still going, very good.

My original plan was going to be so much work (over 150 launches and twice as many dockings) I just ended up doing everything else instead of 'working' at KSP.

However I could not stay away because I like the game and have come up with a new more workable plan that I should be able to fly over the next few days I have off.

I organized the new plan on a spread sheet to make the plan more organized instead of a long scary notepad laundry list. Any time a Cycler leaves Kerbin or a Taxi is at Kerbin a crew will be delivered to it and I don't have these free missions shown on my list.

I made significant changes to the details of the plan but kept the overarching structure the same. I upped my lifter tonnage from 4 tons to 18 (and reduced the launches from 130 to 29). Eliminated the required in orbit assembly, about 300 dockings, from the previous plan. I kept cyclers as I really want to see them in action but I completely resigned them to vastly lowered the mass and use rockets to get them started so they will not take twenty hours to fly. I kept the Rover I was using before because it seemed popular and handles well.

I also upgraded to imgur album Pictures for my plan and hardware

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[DBowman]

I have a new post for my Deeply Duna mission plan (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/113541-Deeply-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission-Architecture-6-Free-Fuel-%21%21)

It covers the development and testing of Mars like fuel manufacture on Duna via the Duna Direct mod that is modeled on the Mars Direct mission plan, there are links to details and a video. I'm going to take things one step further than Mars Direct by 'exporting fuel from Duna to Kerbin'; 1900 + 700 = 2600 m/s vs 4500 m/s - it'd be crazy not to!

here is a BigSab at Duna Dawn, 3.7 seconds from impact, going 21 m/s, 4 of 7 engines shutdown, with 76 m/s worth of fuel on board (only needed 50...)

meyst - omg 130 launches, 300 dockings - ambitious planning.

[meyst]

Duna Base

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[vosechu]

Looks like this is still going, very good.

I made significant changes to the details of the plan but kept the overarching structure the same. I upped my lifter tonnage from 4 tons to 18 (and reduced the launches from 130 to 29). Eliminated the required in orbit assembly, about 300 dockings, from the previous plan. I kept cyclers as I really want to see them in action but I completely resigned them to vastly lowered the mass and use rockets to get them started so they will not take twenty hours to fly. I kept the Rover I was using before because it seemed popular and handles well.

I also upgraded to imgur album Pictures for my plan and hardware

http://imgur.com/a/BufAw

This is beautiful! And welcome back!

I'm glad you made the change to bigger lifters; it is a game afterall! Also, if I recall, the rules only give you one extra bonus point if you actually launch everything, but that same point is given for a mission report. So maybe that could also help!

Anyways, glad to have you back building! Let us know when you feel done and I'll add you to my post of completions. When we have 4 or so I'll ask NathanKell if he can update the toppost or give one of us access.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a new post for my Deeply Duna mission plan (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/113541-Deeply-Duna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission-Architecture-6-Free-Fuel-%21%21)

It covers the development and testing of Mars like fuel manufacture on Duna via the Duna Direct mod that is modeled on the Mars Direct mission plan, there are links to details and a video. I'm going to take things one step further than Mars Direct by 'exporting fuel from Duna to Kerbin'; 1900 + 700 = 2600 m/s vs 4500 m/s - it'd be crazy not to!

here is a BigSab at Duna Dawn, 3.7 seconds from impact, going 21 m/s, 4 of 7 engines shutdown, with 76 m/s worth of fuel on board (only needed 50...)

http://i.imgur.com/mfRcG9T.png?1

meyst - omg 130 launches, 300 dockings - ambitious planning.

Beautiful work DBowman! It's super inspiring to see your progress. That's a crazy close call, 76m/s for a landing!

- - - Updated - - -

Duna Base

Wow meyst! You're way farther along than I'd thought! Are there still some things you want to do or have you finished? Either way, congratulations on a gorgeous looking photo album, you should totally print those out and put them next to the baby books (or if you're like me, the cat and ferret photo albums)

Also, I especially like the look of your Ares I crew delivery vehicle. Gorgeous, and still stock!

[DBowman]

I have planned the satellite constellation (comms, scans, interplanetary).

Also finally have all the parts to test the mass budget for the first flight, all the gear to:

• get there
  
• scan for sites
  
• land & drive around
  
• supplies until the next transfer arrives from Kerbin
  
• 'bug out' if necessary at the first Kerbin return window and get home (Ancient Duna vampire mummies or funding cuts)
  

By pure luck my estimate says it will be only 2% higher than the nominal 47.5 ton payload. Since the rules allow 'payload self circularizing' I should be able to 'just add fuel'.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/113541-DeeplyDuna-Permanent-Outpost-Mission-Architecture

Edited April 28, 2015 by DBowman