Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Patupi]

No it doesn't... except in KSP. It's a failing in the program that causes the control system to not reverse the gimballing when the rockets are above the COM. I know in reality above or below makes little difference. In KSP the gimbals will fight other control methods when mounted like this.

On a side note are there any radially mounted drogue chutes available outside a big mod? I think B9 or KW has it, but I was trying to cut down on larger mods in this and stick mostly with stock. Sometimes it's tricky to mount drogues on a ship when the inline structure is used for docking or staging leaving no-where to put the drogues. I end up radially mounting structural fuselage just to put drogues on, which add more struts to stabilize them. Means adding eight to ten parts just to put two drogues on a vessel! I know there was a separate mod for air brakes a while ago, might try that instead. I'll see if I've still got it somewhere, or maybe see what DLLs are needed to drag them out of the B9 pack to run separately.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Patupi

[IronGremlin]

Get the B9 Aerobrakes. They're amazing, and far more flexible than a drogue chute anyway. That whole pack is worth it if for no other reason than the aerobrakes.

[KeithStone]

well, I did it, I ordered a new laptop! The asus G750JX should be more than sufficient! Once it gets in I'll be throwing kerbal on and having another go at this challenge!

[Patupi]

Good for you KeithStone! I hope it has a good enough CPU to keep your Kerbals in surplus part count for a long time

Oh and IronGremlin, I've used B9, I was just trying to avoid getting the whole pack. I suppose I could load the pack and just use one or two items, but I was trying to go for close to stock as possible as far as parts went. Spherical Fuel tanks are about the only major non-stock parts (not counting things like Editor Extensions, Mechjeb and those parts that emulate the extras in 0.21 like Torquewheels etc) that I'm using. Honestly I'm not sure why I started trying to do it like this, but... *shrugs* Hey, so far it's looking cool

I will take a look at the aerobrakes though, need something! Also weird. During a test of the Beta MTV (1st manned launch) I found that even aerobraking at 13km to get into orbit there were no re-entry effects. I know Duna's atmosphere isn't very dense but it seems odd that there are no flames at all? Oh well, seems I won't need heat shields except for landing aerobraking after all!

(EDIT: Hmm, even during landing there is no heat effects. I'm going to hedge on the side of caution and do some kind of heat shield for aerobraking even though nothing is showing. Right now the Scout MTV (The Beta launch) is using the Mini K-miner's heatshield for aerobraking into orbit. Have to see what to do about the Odyssey MTVs and the initial unmanned MTV)

Edited August 3, 2013 by Patupi

[TheBobWiley]

Finally making some progress, all new mission profile and vehicles in the works. I'm going with a realistic/redundant solution that will probably lose me some points, but I haven't calculated anything yet. Im going to be building a space station in orbit around Duna for kethane ore detection/habitation/communications relay to kerbin/etc. I have an all new launch vehicle that is recoverable and can put roughly 30 tons into 75x75 orbit.

Here is the IPT+S in the VAB

Here is the IPHV in the VAB

Here they are meeting in space and docking the solar panel arm and kethane/communications arm.

These 2 rockets will be launched in time for the first transfer window and will carry 8 kerbals to Duna orbit where this IPHV will become the core for an expanding space station. The station will collect fuel from Duna (provided from kethane mining operation in the near future) and will refuel both the DDAV (Duna Descent/Ascent Vehicle) and Interplanetary tugs heading back to kerbin. The station will also transfer oxygen (ioncross mod) from Duna bound IPTs to Duna's surface via the DDAV. Each IPHV holds enough oxygen to sustain 8 kerbals for just over 350 days.

[meyst]

Good to see other people are making progress too!

I would like to get a confirmation that supplies that have been used up and abandoned don't negatively affect the base mobility achievement.

I ask because this is a picture summery of the current state of supply mobility system testing.

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

[Patupi]

That's an interesting method of tipping. Most others I've seen rely on odd positioning of Landing gear to flip vehicles up and down. Nice design!

[Borkless]

Been lurking around this thread since it started, finally convinced me to make an account just to participate!

I'm still working on my mission plan, but I must say, this is the most math I've done to play a video game. (And the most fun I've had doing it!)

[Patupi]

Yup, even discounting orbital calculations (Thank you Mechjeb!) the payload calculations, finetuning the launch vehicles, and... ahem... making sure the Kerbanauts don't run out of oxium during the trip (Thank heavens that was only a simulation run) makes this a very involved challenge. I wish you luck Borkless, show us your LV and interplanetary vessels when you can.

Oh, and besides simulation runs (with inadequate oxium supplies) I've been trying to get my crew shuttle working. I gave one last effort to making a space plane, and it actually worked. Got to orbit, docked, delivered 2 crew then returned... and then crashed every time I tried to land it. Way too unstable controls with low mass once the fuel was burned. I gave up again on space planes and finalized my RLV crew shuttle. Two stage rocket, totally re-usable. Seems very stable and landed within 3km of KSC on first attempt without Mechjeb! Not bad considering my usual efforts at landing in atmosphere. Again it's using engines to slow down rather than a heat shield. Total DV of the craft is more than 5500 so it's got ample for it.

More testing due, but I think I'm getting closer to launch date. If I get enough free time soon I should be ready to go.

[IronGremlin]

I thought I'd share my progress so far.

I've completed the majority of the engineering necessary for the challenge, in the next few days I will be drafting my launch schedule and launching my first few flights.

And maybe at some point I'll come up with a name for my mission... =/

This is a pretty bulky post, so I'll probably be documenting my progress going forward in another thread, but I got impatient.

Moving forward, I also plan on (hopefully) being the first contestant to submit video documentation of my flights as well as screenshots and mission reports.

I hope you guys like it, this is the first time I've done anything nearly this involved in this game, and I'm having a fantastic time!

Module Inventory

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Dunar Rover Tech Demo

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[Speeding Mullet]

Imagine my surprise when everything worked as it should:

Bill and Jeb came over the hill a little hot, nothing wrong with the fundamental design:

The attention to detail is simply astounding:

And everyone says the lifter is a "very solid bit of kit":

Seriously though I'm about 700 days in on the launch schedule, and should be able to post the full report including pictures and detail this weekend. I actually got a bit carried away last weekend and before I knew it I'd launched the entire schedules ground and orbital bases, and all associated infrastructure and supply in order, and without a single mission failure. I guess as proof of concept it was a useful exercise but I forgot to stuff the ships full of brave Kerman's.

[ThreeMartiniLaunch]

Updated

With Episodes

and

[Death Engineering]

Posted the 7th mission report in the DunaSpace Program challenge. Check it out here

In this mission report Macly and Hudsey go on a mission, Ludlong turns out to be a great pilot and the three amigos ride again so Bob can re-earn his 'test pilot' status.

The Death Engineering 'Duna Space Program' is at day 500 with 1504 kerbal-days on Duna's surface.

Coming in Mission Report 8

• Complete mission hardware catalog
  
• The three amigos come back to a hero's welcome
  
• Two vessels leave for Duna
  
• Complete launch summary to date and sustainable mission plan
  
• The new crew of Bartdorf and Danlong visit Fort Ludlong
  

Dunar orbital rendezvous and docking

[Spica]

In case any of you need this, In the span of 2 hours I have thrown together a crude generator partmodule that keeps track of supply consumption per kerbal per day. Here it is:

MODULE

{

name = ModuleGenerator

isAlwaysActive = false

OUTPUT_RESOURCE

{

name = Supplies

rate = -0.0000115740

}

}

Copy and paste that module into all crewed vehicles with one copy per kerbal (i.e. the 3 man pod gets three of these in its cfg, and the 1 man pod gets one of these).

HOW TO USE:

If you have 3 kerbals in a pod, enable 3 generators (they all have a negative production rate), if one leaves, disable one generator, and so on and so forth.

IMPORTANT: In order for this to work, you have to copy and paste this bit of text into the Resources.cfg file:

RESOURCE_DEFINITION

{

name = Supplies

density = 0.005

flowMode = ALL_VESSEL

transfer = PUMP

}

And with that, you're set!

P.S. If you use this little module, please try to give me some credit (it may be in fine print).

Spica

[KeithStone]

IronGremlin I love your dual purpose rover design and comm tower, I was looking at integrating a comms tower in to my first set of habitation pods, but I scrapped it due to..lets say design issues lol! It may come back in to play when the new comp gets loaded up!

[Speeding Mullet]

I am also jealous of your comms tower IronGremlin, I went for relay satellites and integrated comms in my ground and orbital vehicles, but I strongly suspect I might rip this off as part of my +1000 day program.

Sturmstiger - Considering how well designed and gratifying this challenge is (and this might have been covered off), have you got any extensions or other worldly but similar challenges in the pipeline for those who have completed this one to go on to?

[Borkless]

Finally got around to planning out my own mission. It's not going to have the highest early mission score, but it should allow for easy and nearly limitless expansion of the kerbal's extraplanetery presence. My lifter is rated for 23 tonnes to LKO (with a teeny tiny margin for de-orbiting or engine-out issues), and is fully reusable with the exception of the small upper stage.

mods:A bunch, really. The Important ones are KAS, Kethane, and Quantum Struts. Yes, I know the latter is frowned apon, but strapping ships together is something that should be doable in real life. To that end, I'm only activating the struts if kerbals are, or could logically be, present to assist.

Without further delay, the plan!

PHASE I (day 55 Launch Window) (2 launches + crew ferry + 2 “Pogo†launches)

-Launch of DKR (Duna Kethane Rig) with Aeroshell

-Launch of Trans-Duna transfer stage

-Manned launch of Firefly OTV to supervise mating, manually reinforce joint. (i.e. turn on quantum struts)

-Launch of Minimus kethane scanner atop “Pogo’ ultralight booster.

-Launch of Mun Kethane scanner atop Pogo.

Day 45: All launches completed.

Day 119, arrival in Duna SOI. Transtage aerocaptures. Stack settles into low-eccentricity orbit. searching for viable kethane deposits near equator. Once found, spent transtage is left in orbit for later use as fuel depot.

DKR descends to surface and begins mining operations.

PHASE II (Day 283 Launch window) (5 launches + crew ferry)

-Dry-Launch of Duna Cycler Serenity to LKO

-Launch of fueling ship, tanks Serenity enough for her round-trip. (Serenity has additional tankage for later expansion)

-Launch of Duna Ascent Vehicle. (multiple reentry rated)

-Launch of Duna Surface Habitat with Protective Aeroshell.

-Launch of DSH transtage. (if mission requires. If DSH can be made light enough may be self-powered.)

-Manned launches to ferry up Serenity’s 4 man shakedown crew (Commander, Pilot/navigator, Engineer, medic.)

-Mating of DSH to Transtage.

All ships depart for Duna.

Day 270: All launches completed

Day 347. All ships arrive in-system. DSH lands unmanned near DKR. Crew transfer from Serenity to DAV, land near DSH. Crew attaches KAS lines to DAV, refuel for later accent. (Will take as much fuel up to transtage-come-fuel-depot as possible) .

Day 495: Crew ride DAV to LDO, crew transfer to Serenity. DAV transfers fuel to Transtage, and de-orbits. Serenity burns for home.

PHASE III (Day 511 launch window) (5 launches)

-Launch of utility Skycrane. (multiple reentry rated)

-Launch of Minimus/Mun Kethane refinery. (Target depends on scan analysis)

Day 495 All launches completed

-Launch of DSH II

-Launch of Duna Surface Rover

-Launch of DSR transtage

Day 495: All launches completed.

Day 575: All ships arrive at Duna. Skycrane ferries down DSH II and stands by to refuel on surface. (Incorporating aeroshell and downmass thrusters into Skycrane shaves mass off DSH II).

Transtage becomes new part of Duna Orbital Station.

END of EARLY MISSION PERIOD

Mission Value: 148 days * 4 kerbals = 592

Efficiently Score: 2.14 (2.3 if mular kethane rig is discounted)

[Patupi]

OK, finally finished the Mission plan for Project Archimedes:

(OK, finally uploaded the right version, when my server decided to play nice!)

For the rest...

I had to rework my missions a bit when rovers and landers had trouble on testing. K miner rover not stable enough and trouble with parachutes. Landers toppling on touch down. Fun stuff! Lifters and ITVs (renamed from MTV as they aren't themselves 'manned' transfer vehicles, though they carry manned pods... Kerballed pods? ) are just fine, though the primary Catalyst Launcher has been re-rated at 28tons load to get the heavy Odyssey Habitat Landers to fit on them. Even at 28tons it has plenty of fuel left to de-orbit after depositing payloads at 80km (standard parking orbit). Thus Lifter turnaround is now 42days.

1st automated launch is a two part vehicle with a specially small ITV. All other missions are three part launches, one ITV and two payloads. The 1st launch's small size allows the scout ITV Catalyst launch to heft two heatshields, and talking of heatshields...

Project Uses seperate heatshield 'vehicles' (Debris, since no probe body) with senior docking ports for connection to ITVs and to stack on launch. These heatshields are designed to aerobrake vessels at Duna and Kerbin (re-usable heatshields, at least until Kerbin, Maybe could be replaced after that), and some launches can't fit one of the heatshields on so I stacked a couple on some earlier flights, then left a spare in orbit to be picked up by later missions. There is no room for Heatshield addons on normal ITV or Habitat Lander launches from KSC. Others can stack one or two heatshields on.With the Destiny Lander I had difficulty making it usable, good for mining Kethane, and enough DV to mean it could carry useful amounts of fuel to orbit from Duna if neccessary. Thus it weighs in at over 50tons, but is launched dry at about 22tons, partially refilled at Duna from reserve ITV tanks and lands at IKE to mine Kethane and refuel itself and the ITVs. I wanted to do this without the launch dry and refuel with Kethane thing, but had to compromise on this for the Destiny Lander.

Note, had difficulty using Ioncross (apart from the whole 'won't use oxygen when not an active vessel) as it actually weighs MORE for the transit to Duna than the supply packaging Sturmstiger suggested. Went with Ioncross for just the Habitat Landers and this is only used when landed on Duna with air intakes to give indefinite supplies on ground. In orbit and transfer between Kerbin and Duna all ships use supplies based on RCS which will be locked out once launched so they aren't accidentally used as RCS. The initial unmanned station DTS-1 carries 3750 Kerbin days of supplies to help later missions. All ITVs carry 750 kerbin days of supply to keep Kerbals alive during the trip to Duna in addition to what is on the Habitat Landers travelling with them.

Early mission score=1184

Sustained mission score=3624+10128+3136+1560=18438

500 day Mission efficiency=3.5 NIMLKO-336tons

1000 day Mission efficiency=27.4375 NIMLKO-672tons

Achievements:

Mission Execution-0... Not yet, though tested all of it except the transfer rover and orbital tug.

Crew Mobility-0 No rovers except for automated fuel/supply transfer rovers, since all bases are mobile.

Base Mobility-3 (all bases mobile)

Crew safety-2 (Only the automated Alpha ITV cannot survive if one engine fails. All others systems (ITVs and landers) have 4 engines and enough thrust and dV to survive on 2 engines)

Mission Robustness-1 (since there is only one planned launch window being used for manned transfer in 500day timeline, but enough extra slots to get at least 4 Kerbals to Duna if one Kerbin to LKO fails)

Total Achievements to date-6

EDIT:Oh, and I know I posted this before, but here is the current Mod list:

Actions on the Fly

Crew Manifest

Airbrakes from B9

Damn Robotics

Editor Extensions

Ioncross Crew Support

Ion Hybrid Electric Pack

Keramzit's Procedural Fairings

Kethane

Mechjeb2

Tal's Spherical Fuel Tanks

Protractor (just to check when the Hoffman transfer was due on testing)

SECS adaptor mounts

Subassembly Manager

Torque Wheel (with the rot reduced from 20 to 5)

day 500=12 launches, 8 Kerbals on Duna surface.

day 1000=24 launches, 48 Kerbals on Duna surface with 8 Returned to KSC on day 1016

From here on out there will be a minimum of 48 Kerbals on Duna surface at any given time. Project can switch to ferrying just Kerbals and this can get a large population fairly fast (as Habitat landers kept attached to ITVs don't need to be re-launched from KSC each time).

Edited August 7, 2013 by Patupi

[Raptor831]

This challenge is too amazing to pass up. I've been feasibility testing designs, and I think I've finally gotten enough to throw my hat into the ring. Still in the planning phases, and have no full mission plan as of yet. I do have a launcher (34 tons nominal mass), a lander, a habitation module for 5 kerbals, and a transfer stage ready. I've got to figure out mission timing, habitation for transit, and supply chains.

This is a great challenge, thanks!

[NeilC]

Just a suggestion, Raptor831: If you can shave your largest payload down to 30t from 34, and make your lifter re-usable, you can have 2 payloads ready for the first Duna Hohmann transfer window. As it is, your 2nd payload misses it by 6 days - are you planning to eat the dV penalty and transfer it anyway? 2 payloads early could give a big boost to your score, or allow more redundancy for your initial Kerbals.

Of course I'm not sure what you're planning, so maybe that doesn't make sense for your mission. Just my $0.02!

[Raptor831]

Just a suggestion, Raptor831: If you can shave your largest payload down to 30t from 34, and make your lifter re-usable, you can have 2 payloads ready for the first Duna Hohmann transfer window. As it is, your 2nd payload misses it by 6 days - are you planning to eat the dV penalty and transfer it anyway? 2 payloads early could give a big boost to your score, or allow more redundancy for your initial Kerbals.

Of course I'm not sure what you're planning, so maybe that doesn't make sense for your mission. Just my $0.02!

Yeah, I know about the missed window... :sigh: But it's only 6 days off-best-window, so I may just eat the dV penalty anyway.

I'm going for the "rule of cool" more than I'm going for score. I tried, really really hard, to get my payloads below 30 tons to hit the 2-launches-before-transfer window, but I just hated the way they looked. I was thinking that I may send a "research" flight up first, with kethane scanners and other "science" stuff to act as a scouting trip. I want to use kethane in-situ so I gotta find a pocket somewhere.

Alternatively, I may send some infrastructure equipment (supplies mostly) to Duna then. Get a site ready for the main launches. I'm shooting for a Constellation-esque mission, since I was inspired by this video:

Won't be quite the same, but I'm hoping for close. We shall see... I'll be back with a proper plan, hopefully soon!

[Death Engineering]

Looks very thorough! I think I might the only person doing this challenge without mods.. we're just going to Duna for the prestige of planting flags.

"batch of 24 Kerbals".. just like mom used to make!

[Patupi]

Perhaps there should be a separate scoreboard for people who did it only in stock? Trying this without Mechjeb, Kerbal Engineer or Protractor would be... interesting. I'm not saying I'm going to try it! I'm too used to Actions on the Fly and Editor Extensions now to give them up!

[Death Engineering]

Its interesting, to be sure, to go without Mechjeb and Kerbal Engineer. I do, however, use Kerbal Alarm Clock as it would be impossible to have multiple simultaneous flights going on between Duna and Kerbin otherwise. So, not *quite* stock, I guess.

[Patupi]

I wouldn't consider the alarm clock non-stock really. Actually I suppose actions on the fly wouldn't hurt either, though Editor extensions does allow you to do things you couldn't quite before with symmetry. Nothing major, but 5way symmetry is impossible normally, and it goes up to 50way symmetry if I remember right. There are probably others that wouldn't affect things much, as long as no parts were added and no game play mechanics were messed with (a la Mechjeb) then I personally wouldn't consider it beyond 'Stock'