Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Borkless]

whelp, my mission is on hold as my booster had an annoying unwillingness to stay functional. Working on a new, less-parts intensive booster and new payloads to fit it. The bulk of my mission should still work.

I'm also looking into using ioncross as some others have done. Should work better for a more long-term mission.

[Captain Sierra]

I'm considering using deadly re-entry, but I might need to modify the HOME heat shields to be DRE compatable, otherwise, i'm screwed. Also, with a duna oupost mission for something else, I discovered you don't even need one for re-entry from a 45km parking orbit. No re-entry effects, so no shock heating and thus no melting and exploding.

[Patupi]

Oh, high parts trouble! I definitely sympathize! I had serious issues with my crew transfer vehicle like that, as well as the booster final stage. That's the reason I'm on a different, not totally re-usable launcher now. The totally reusable one had so many doohickeys and doodads on it it slugged my machine down to a crawl whenever I tried to dock it to a full mission in orbit!

If using Ion cross be cautious on time warp. In my experience their recyclers seems to be less efficient at the very high time warp levels. I've been leaving it on 10,000 (second to last one) and though it takes a while my crew at least don't suffocate!

I've made an update to my mission thread as well, Heatshield related things and up to day 178:

Project Archimedes

[Borkless]

It didn't help that my booster had a very complicated engine cluster, with strutting and fuel lines that needed to be tweaked everytime I reloaded the sub-assembly. That said, it was a really cool engine cluster.

I've also been tinkering with a Duna Cycler. (A large station housing all the life-support who's orbit cycles between Duna and Kerbin.) Would cut down the weight limits as all I'd need to accelerate is the crew-transfer vehicle, but that'd require ALREADY having all the duna-side architecture.

Thanks for the tip about iconcross by the way!

Edited August 13, 2013 by Borkless

[Patupi]

A Duna Cycler would be tricky with the SOI in KSP. If it ever crossed an SOI the orbit would mess up and if it didn't the ships to tend it would use almost as much dV to reach it as to reach Duna... unless I miss my guess anyway. I thought of something like that myself remembering the old Mars Cycler designs from the 80s. One advantage would be low life support mass, but with Ioncross as long as you don't use max time warp that doesn't seem to be an issue.

It's possible I haven't thought it through enough though. Feel free to check the concept out. I'd be happy if it did work out. That would be a cool idea.

(EDIT: to clarify. I was thinking that the burn to match orbits with the cycler would be, at a rough guess, half the dv of travelling to Duna. But at Duna you can aerobrake which wouldn't be an option for Cycler rendezvous. That's why I was thinking it wouldn't be much help. Please let me know if I'm wrong!)

Edited August 13, 2013 by Patupi

[Speeding Mullet]

3. Besides those already on the leaderboard, who else has completed the entry requirement? Patupi? Speeding Mullet?

I flew all my missions up to day 445 without a single failure before I realised I forgot to stuff them with Kerbals or launch them at the assigned days, I just got carried away taking screenshots, and wondering how everything worked so well. I haven't had enough spare time to begin again following the defined launch timetable absolutely to the letter.

I will post a mission report as soon as I am able, but now I have an absolutely infallible 26t rated lifter I keep going off on a tangent designing packages for this challenge that I want to send more around day 2/3000!

On that Sturmstiger, are you working perhaps on an extension or similar challenge to this for people who complete this one?

[Death Engineering]

[Mission Entry 9: "There's something down there"]

In this mission report to day 820:

• Three missions arrive at Duna: Crew exchange mission, crane-deployed rover and dual supply drop missions
  
• Last mission of the primary launches sent to LKO
  
• Kerbals have logged 3577 days on Duna
  
• Regular supply drops established
  

Mission Report 9 is posted here.

As day 1000 approaches, KSC engineers report that flying to Duna has become "as routine as taking a kab downtown". With all primary unique missions launched and only supply drops and upgrade/expansion launches in the works, the only main objective in the challenge left to complete is to bring the last of the Duna pioneers home before they hit 1000 days in space.

Coming in Mission Entry 10

• Bob and Ludlong reunited
  
• "Why are we down here?"
  
• Beyond the infinite
  

Edited August 13, 2013 by Death Engineering

[TheBobWiley]

Borkless, I did not know that their was a thing called the Mars Cycler, thanks for dashing my hopes of thinking I came up with something cool and un-thought of before

I am flip-flopping between 2 main interplanetary tug designs and my OCD for redundancy is killing my mission. I am trying to build every stage with 100% redundancy, but its just not possible to account for every situation and over design every single ship (too heavy mainly). So I need to cut my designs back and simply use 2 of each vehicle for redundancy instead of each vehicle carrying redundant supplies/parts.

Also, a question for sturmstiger, if we are using ioncross is it "cheating" to use the air intake on Duna (does it even work?) to create infinite supplies? I assume it is, but if we can use it to provide supplies for bases/vehicles ON duna, that would greatly decrease the 30,000+ ioncross supplies I currently need on each Kerbin-Duna bound vehicle.

[meyst]

I didn't know that would be called a cycler, makes sense.

This may or may not be an example of a probe being used to test various 'cycler orbits' and solar orbit docking.

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

From what I have seen so far docking to a cycler requires more delta V than the Hohmann transfer. What it brings is the oportunity to accelerate only half as much habitat mass (thus the fuel savings) and only needing to accelerate the return supplies once. For everything else the standard Hohmann transfer still seems to be the most efficient option and are still likely to be required because a cycler doesn't make any sense until everything else is already in place at Duna.

It also comes with it's own myriad of interesting challenges. Our challenge gives us a max of 10 days to make a rendezvous and docking with one (otherwise you are carrying so mush hab space it offers no advantage) as it flys by and after you do rendezvous you are looking at either docking two large craft or running a plethora of shuttle transfers. Also don't miss the rendezvous, without a massive delta V reserve 'it's a bad day'. To keep the robust mission achievement I am looking at running two in formation, running two cyclers in formation together is going to make for an interesting challenge Esp when it means to use both of them I would be making two ships rendezvous with them inside a 10 day window. From my experimentation so far I am finding the closing and docking to be the same as in Kerbin orbit (just will be huge assets doing it) So far my tests have shown that initial rendezvous just outside kerbins SOI has been docking on hardest level. I attempted one inside the SOI, flying the cycler target down to a Kerbin PE of 90 KM but that docking attempt ended up, messy, fast.

Here is a

that shows how an Earth Mars one would work Edited August 13, 2013 by meyst

[Patupi]

I'm assuming they have engines? If not you may have difficulty. With their orbit crossing Duna and Kerbin's it would only take a small innaccuracy for them to eventually slip into one or the other's SOI. As long as they have a means of correction I would think it should work. I'll be interested to see how this comes out.

[Highlad]

Project Spectrum was initially a joint venture between myself and Fallingintoblack and I must give him credit where credit is due, however towards the end of this venture, It was I who did most of the work

Here is a brief overview of the operation, I wrote this for clarity in my own mind and so that Fallingintoblack would also understand the plan.

There are three basic stages to this extended mission, the launch of a module to lko, the transfer of the module from lko to ldo and the landing of the module on duna.

If we look at each step individually:

The Launch

Each launch will consist of two parts, the lifter and the payload.

The Lifter:

• The lifter must be designed so that it weighs more than half of the payloads weight (in our case the payload will weigh 50 tonnes and so the lifter should weigh at least 25 tonnes)

• The lifter must be fully reusable.

Ie. no part should be destroyed on landing / splashdown and no visible re-entry effects should be seen.

Don’t worry about the re-entry thing. As long as there is fuel in the last stage of the lifter and it has a probe and electric source, it will be able to stop itself from going too fast.

• The Lifter must be capable of taking a 50 tonne payload to LKO (70-75km)

The Payload:

• Each Payload will consist of one or more modules which range from fuel and supplies to habitation modules (I will include a complete list of modules at the end)

• The Lifter is designed to take 50 tonnes to LKO and so each payload must not weigh more than that limit.

• On the other hand, the payload should be as close to that limit as possible so that we get the most bang for our buck.

The Transfer

There are several transfer windows both to and from duna in the time of the mission. Not every transfer window will be used though. (For example, the first transfer window will not be used as we do not have many modules in LKO at that time)

Again there are two main parts to the transfer, the tug and the payload.

The Tug (IPTS):

• The tug will be the very first payload launched to LKO

• Much like the lifter, the tug is the muscle of the transfer; it will pull all the modules from LKO to LDO and will be used to transfer crew between the two planets.

• The tug must have docking ports, balanced RCS and be run on NERVA rockets (as the efficiency is needed)

• The tug must be capable of actually pulling the payload to LDO (It must have sufficient ÃŽâ€-V)

The Payload:

• At this point in the mission the payload will no longer be single modules but many modules docked together.

• The payload can be no more than 200 tonnes (as the IPTS can’t tug more than that). This equates to 4 launch payloads each weighing 50 tonnes.

The Landing

Although the landing is simple enough, there are a few steps that must be taken.

1. The Kethane rig will orbit once around the equator and find a suitable landing site (one which is both flat, has a Kethane deposit and is, preferably, higher up)

2. Once a landing site is identified, the tug will de-orbit all modules, including itself, and will then undock. With the modules now on a sub-orbital trajectory, the tug will burn prograde to achieve orbit. At this point fuel will be low.

3. The modules now falling to duna will wait till they are closer to the surface then proceed to undock from one another and deploy parachutes. The crew will land in the habitation modules with which they transferred to duna.

Additionally, fuel will be sent up to the IPTS after landing and, after refuelled, the IPTS will transfer back to Kerbin

These basic steps will be repeated a few times during the course of this mission.

The following is a list of modules, divided into the launches they will use:

Launch 1.

TUG – IPTS (Interplanetary Transfer Shuttle)

Launch 2.

Refuelling Utility – Kethane rig

Launch 3.

Habitation Module

Duna Shuttle – A ship that will take our crew back to LDO once their time is up.

Launch 4.

Supply module – RCS tanks acting as supplies for the transfer and the Duna base.

Launch 5.

Power Module – A module which will provide a source of electricity

Launch 6.

Transfer Habitation Module – A moduke for the IPTS that will allow crews of 8 to be safely transferred from planet to planet.

Launch 7.

Duna tug – A ground tug to pull the modules closer together

Launch 8.

Habitation Module

Duna Shuttle – A ship that will take our crew back to LDO once their time is up.

Launch 9.

Supply Module

Launch 10.

Fuel for IPTS

A more detailed launch schedule is shown below:

------------------------------------------------

Here are all the modules, pre-launch:

The Lifter:

The lifter is fully reusable and is designed with asparagus staging and a heck of alot of parachutes!

The IPTS:

The IPTS (InterPlanetary Transfer Shuttle) Is designed to pull a whopping 200 tonnes to LDO, With the help of an aerobrake of course!

HabMod + Shuttle:

Bob has nicknamed this the spaghetti. It will house the kerbals in their transfer and prolonged stay on duna.

Refuelling Utility:

This may be one of the most important utilities as it will provide fuel on the duna end of things.

Duna Tugs:

These will help to pull all the modules together

SupMod:

FOOOOOOD

PowMod:

I really didn't need this but Jeb said he wanted to play angry birds while on duna...

Fuel:

The IPTS needs fuel, this is its source.

Transfer HabMod:

A HabMod that will not land and is only used to take kerbals from LDO to LKO and back.

--------------------------------------------

That is it! that's the submission!

I am hoping to take them all to duna tomorrow or something. As for now though, that's it.

I would love to hear your comments!

[Death Engineering]

Looks like a good mission plan. Now the *real* time consuming part of flying them all!

[meyst]

looks like a good plan to me. I also really like that banner, Highlad.

I'm assuming they have engines? If not you may have difficulty. With their orbit crossing Duna and Kerbin's it would only take a small innaccuracy for them to eventually slip into one or the other's SOI. As long as they have a means of correction I would think it should work. I'll be interested to see how this comes out.

You are correct some kind of propulsion to maintain accurate intercepts is going to be needed. I get the idea you are under the impression that the SOIs of the planets is something that should be avoided by a cycler orbiter, the opposite is the case.

Going into one of the SOIs is a requirement to make a cycler orbit work. The Synodic period (Think Hohmann transfer window) of the planets in question and the sidereal periods (full orbit around the sun) do not match. This causes the alignment of the planets to rotate while the cyclers orbit does not. As a result the cycler needs to go into one of the SOIs every orbit to alter the orbital trajectory to correct for the angular difference so it can maintain the cyclers intercepts. Otherwise the orbit would go in a useless direction.

To put it another way a cycler orbiter uses a perfectly set up gravity assist to aim the orbit, so it intercepts two planets in a row, while maintaining an exact solar Apoapsis and Periapsis so it can arrive back at the correct time to do it all again on the next orbit.

I have been practicing with these because I would very much like to include them. Try not to get your hopes up to high though. These things can go wrong fast so unless I get the number figured out right for the 'gravity turn' and get good enough to feel confidant about juggling two of them plus an additional two ships that are docking with them for the transit I will strike them from my mission plan. At this time I rate cycler orbiters as a 19 out of 10 on the it's hard scale.

[Patupi]

I hadn't thought about it quite like that. I assumed multiple orbits would be necessary before there would be an alignment with either Duna or Kerbin and have fairly fast 'passing orbits' that intersected at a given time and needed some odd arrangement to make them line up. correction within the SOI makes more sense.

I take it when you cross into SOI of either (or out of) you're slowing to x1 warp? Otherwise you'll have a lot of dv to fix every time.

[meyst]

I take it when you cross into SOI of either (or out of) you're slowing to x1 warp? Otherwise you'll have a lot of dv to fix every time.

I was not aware that time warp would mess with maneuvers, good to know.

Edited August 14, 2013 by meyst

[Patupi]

I wondered for ages why I got this course dead on, fixed the PE at destination to within a few thousand km... and then it shifted once I left the SOI. Finally spotted someone describe that a few weeks ago. Makes life a whole lot easier! Right now I've been just slowing near the shift in SOI, but I have Alarm Clock installed recently and I'll likely try that. I know it does alarms near PE and AP, probably on SOI shifts too (though I haven't checked yet)

[Borkless]

Hey, people are still talking about the Cyclers! I figured it would be something much harder to implement in KSP than in real-life.

Anyhow, I've been tinkering around with Ioncross and I need opinions from those more knowledgeable than myself. Bobcat's H.O.M.E. mod includes inflatable habitats and (importantly) greenhouses. Would it be permissible/possible/a good idea to try and hack the greenhouses to act like the algae-recyclers from Ioncross?

[ThreeMartiniLaunch]

Episode 6 is published!

With updated images, video, and schedule!

[kookoo_gr]

Hi i'm thinking of joining the challenge and i have a few questions that may have been answered (27 pages is a very long read in order to see every detail of the challenge, besides the rules)

1. For reentry damage, does fairings count as heat shields?

2. If i have a component with a transfer stage that can reach Duna can i send it right away form Kerbin orbit or do i have to wait for the windows? There will be the appropriate wait time between launches as stated form rule No.2

3. As for the lifter, how can calculate its payload capability? I know it's a more of a how to question but skimming through the other pages i didn't find anything useful and from what i understood it's a trial and error procedure to build a suitable lifter. Also a single lifter will be used for either light or heavy payloads, no variations of it right?

[Speeding Mullet]

1) Yes, Sturmstiger uses them in his own entry.

2) As long as you adhere to the wait times between launches, and you have the delta v, you can fire things off window with great gusto.

3) I designed a payload first, and built the launcher around the weight of the payload I wanted to send. I pretty much hit the right launcher first time on the assumption that it would take me about 4800 m/s in delta V to obtain orbit. There are some good tutorials on rocket design online if you need more tips on staging etc.

My launcher has been identical and without variation bar the payloads it launches, I think that's what the challenge calls for. If your rocket is truly modular I don't see why this wouldn't be in the spirit of the challenge, as long as it didn't break any other rules. Personally I don't think it's worth it unless you are saving the delta v to launch off window, you may as well wait for the best window and fling as much tonnage as your rocket can manage towards Duna.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Speeding Mullet

[Raptor831]

Made an official entry here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/46209-Intrepid-Mission-to-Duna-Duna-Permanent-Architecture-Challenge

I'll be posting there to keep this thread clean, and I'm hoping to actually fly these missions in full. Hopefully that won't take too long!

Here's the short version:

Equipment:

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[Patupi]

Updated the Project Archimedes thread: Project Archimedes

Beta mission is part way to Duna and the Gamma ship assembled. But once up I tried for a non-Hoffmann transfer. So far it seems to be working well. ETA day 381 rather than day 511 if they'd gone via the next Hoffmann transfer window.

[meyst]

As some interest was generated, I made cycler tests I was working on available as a challenge that lets any interested party jump right in with a persistent file download.

[kookoo_gr]

Here is the start of my mission. If there is anythnig wrong please let me know in order to fix it

Kapricorn One

[GabrielG.A.B.Fonseca]

Update on my design: Progress has been slow due to RL issues, but I'm glad to announce that I already have a Booster and a DTV, togheter with Supply Modules and Hab Modules. The only thing that is holding me back is that bastard known as the Duna Ascent Vehicle.