Imperial/Metric Discussion

[SchildConstruct]

The light-year is the distance light travels in one year, and the length of one year can be argued over, dependent on calendar (365, 365.25, 365.245, and so on), thus the distance can.

No. No, it cannot: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/appenB9.html#TIME

The parsec is defined as the (inverse) parallax arc when observed from two points 1 AU apart; else you\'d get error even with times of year. Thus, the parsec is a very precisely fixed distance, and is used over the full range when not addressing the general populace, who have no idea what a parsec is.

And is valid only from your current vantage point. If you change position from Earth to, say, Tau Ceti, the position of the stars changes, and thus their apparent distance to each other.

[Eat Uranium]

It doesn\'t matter what you personally think about the various systems, all that matters is that you use the correct units to get your message across to other people (since this is the point of such systems).

Like if I wanted to tell a group of people my bodyweight* I could just say 10st 5lb, but that would mean that people in the group unfamiliar with such units would be confused. I\'d have to include 66kg and 145lbs to make sure everyone understood. Of course, if the whole group were from, say France, I\'d stick to just kg because saying the other systems would be wasted breath.

Hence the superiority of metric systems comes not from any intrinsic values of the units themselves, but from it\'s position as a lingua franca that you can be reasonably sure that anyone you meet can understand.

*I don\'t actually know my bodyweight, this number was pulled out of the hat at random.

[Eat Uranium]

And is valid only from your current vantage point. If you change position from Earth to, say, Tau Ceti, the position of the stars changes, and thus their apparent distance to each other.

Erm, parsecs are used to measure the distance from star to star, but have a very definite length. They are not subjective. What you describe does not change the length of the parsec, only the location of the origin of the coordinate system you are using to locate the stars.

[SchildConstruct]

Hence the superiority of metric systems comes not from any intrinsic values of the units themselves, but from it\'s position as a lingua franca that you can be reasonably sure that anyone you meet can understand.

Yes, but no. SI units, as divorced from the decimal number system, are defined by using cosmological constants.

Meter: distance travelled by light in vacuum in 1?299,792,458 seconds

Second: the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.

Ampere: the amount of electric charge passing a point in an electric circuit per unit time with 6.241 × 1018 electrons, or one coulomb per second constituting one ampere.

And so on.

The only unit of measurement that is not defined by a cosmological constant is mass. But that is about to change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Proposed_future_definitions

Further, US customary units are defined by SI units, anyway.

Quoth the NIST:

In 1893, metric standards, developed through international cooperation under the auspices of BIPM, were adopted as the fundamental standards for length and mass in the United States. Our customary measurements -- the foot, pound, quart, etc. -- have been defined in relation to the meter and the kilogram ever since.

source

[SchildConstruct]

Erm, parsecs are used to measure the distance from star to star, but have a very definite length. They are not subjective. What you describe does not change the length of the parsec, only the location of the origin of the coordinate system you are using to locate the stars.

Hence the use of 'apparent distance'. Yes, the parsec has a definite length. But the distance between stars that you can observe changes. Pulling an example out of thin air: Wolf 356 and Wolf 425 are 10pc apart from Earth. They are 22pc apart from Tau Ceti. That\'s because your location changes, and thus what you see in the sky. The position of stars is always relative to the position you observe them from.

This is analogous to how the position of landmarks changes in relation to each other when you drive by them in a car. That\'s also why geographic surveys are done from determined, well recorded, points.

[Eat Uranium]

Ah, I get where you are coming from.

You\'ve managed to confuse the spatial and angular coordinates of a star in the sky. Angular here being the location of the point of light in the sky and spatial meaning how far away it is from you. Angular measured in seconds of arc and spatial measured in parallax seconds of arc.

It doesn\'t matter if you measure from Earth or Tau Ceti, you will always find that the length of the line connecting Wolf 356 and Wolf 425 is the same length (obviously assuming they are both close enough to both points of observation for parallax to be used).

[SchildConstruct]

It doesn\'t matter if you measure from Earth or Tau Ceti, you will always find that the length of the line connecting Wolf 356 and Wolf 425 is the same length (obviously assuming they are both close enough to both points of observation for parallax to be used).

*facepalm* You calculate the distance in parsec from a point that is 1AU from your position (from the Sun to Wolf 365, say). So, yes, two points will always be the same distance away, since the angle between you and the observed point is always 1 arcsecond.

Related: I hate trigonometry.

Also: sketches help.

Finally: Need moar COFFEE!

[JupiterII]

Only 3 contries don\'t use the metric system

[Iskierka]

Unless you want to argue with IAU, 1ly is a set number.

Google want to.

Compare result with the one displayed on the wikipedia page.

And I would make a reply to SchildConstruct ... but I\'m not even sure what the last post tried to say. The angle won\'t always be 1 arc second: the angle is what is used to determine the distance in pc.

[SchildConstruct]

Google want to.

And Google has how many papers published in astronomy?

As the IAU says: 'Although there are several different kinds of year, the IAU regards a year as a Julian year of 365.25 days (31.5576 million seconds) unless otherwise specified.' source[url=http://The IAU is, in their own words: 'The International Astronomical Union (IAU) was founded in 1919. Its mission is to promote and safeguard the science of astronomy in all its aspects through international cooperation. Its individual members - structured in Divisions, Commissions, Working groups and Program Groups - are professional astronomers from all over the world, at the Ph.D. level and beyond, and active in professional research and education in astronomy.'

And Google is, in their own words: 'Google’s mission: Organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful.' source]

The IAU is, in their own words: 'The International Astronomical Union (IAU) was founded in 1919. Its mission is to promote and safeguard the science of astronomy in all its aspects through international cooperation. Its individual members - structured in Divisions, Commissions, Working groups and Program Groups - are professional astronomers from all over the world, at the Ph.D. level and beyond, and active in professional research and education in astronomy.'

And Google is, in their own words: 'Google’s mission: Organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful.' source.

So, who\'s the astronomical authority here?

[foamyesque]

Then somehow I must be experiencing the rejects of the metric system because they can\'t do any milimeter to meter as well as deca/deci conversions for a damn. I also must somehow experience the most competent dual system users on Earth or something. Ditto for association of mililiters to cubic centimeters.

I guess we should destroy the Americans for having such competent dual system users because they are a backwards people that are have individuals willing to use both systems? Since they are a backwards people like random middle eastern or African countries. Nothing about that implies regionalism or racism at all, nope, not at all.

Or maybe I am just seeing some intense system fanboyism here. No idea why people absolutely must push their system onto everyone screaming that it has historical superiority as well as even greater 'scientific accuracy.' Such are the chants of the people that go into an immediate rage about one system that is not their 'favored' system.

I\'m sure that defining meter as a fraction of the distance from one location of the Earth to another without precision equipment was not the smartest idea. Nor was it trying to derive it from a pendulum swing... Of arbitrary lengths.

Ah, right, better avoid using this scientific notation thing too since when I say '1E3 milimeters' I get people going 'you mean 10 meters?' 'no I think he ment 1.' 'Shut up, you obviously don\'t know your conversions, he want 100 mm of tape out.' Since that is part of SI which is a much, much more modern adaptation of the metric system. Something that is 'inferior' to 'purist metric.' Something about those 'vile' non SI units that are not base 10... Must be those damned radians! Or that vile non decimal time!

And please understand, I\'m not joking about the people I meet and their 'one system' mentality and 'competence.' I\'m just merely saying that saying that one system is inferior and refusing to do any conversions only furthers ignorance.

What kind of madman asks for a roll of tape in a length defined in millimetres and then procedes to use scientific notation to express his number? Next time you order tape, ask for 1E2 inches and see if they can work out how many feet that is.

I mean holy smokes, couldn\'t you have just said \'a thousand\'?

Also, it is trivially easy to demonstrate that the U.S. is a backwards country. This is evident by the fact that it is still using the Imperial units for everything, which is a sufficient (though not necessary) condition.

[Reflector]

I used SI with millimeters because it was stated on the sheet, I would assume that my fellow lab mates would of understood that but it seems not. It also didn\'t help that their egos were enormous enough they would argue over this while not comprehending what I said to them. It has been years since then but I doubt those people have had any improvements with that important piece of paper they have.

Backwards country you say? I guess those dirty, useless Americans are just as useful as stereotypes of Middle Eastern or African people murdering each other. After all, they obviously didn\'t land on the moon. Nor do they encompass the harddrive industry. Or take over the computing industry in the past two decades. Or how about having the largest aerospace sector thanks to absorbing many German aerospace engineers? Oh wait, by your extension those Germans must be useless too!

As said: Get over your system fanboyism and stop blaming another country for silly discourse reasons. It only makes you come off as extremely close minded and regionalism.

I will throw one last thing out: Computers are a beautiful combination of imperial and metric units and all of you rely on them to post on this topic. I hope you enjoy your 5.25' bays, 3.5', 2.5' and 1.8' harddrives (Specifically the platters) with their metric heights, especially the Z' height on harddrives.

Oh wait, but we should DESTROY computers, obviously they\'re backwards pieces of vile technology created by those ignorant Americans, yes? Just like those Saturn Vs.

[foamyesque]

If by beautiful, you mean \'archaic goddamned mismash only done because of idiot backward American measurements becoming standard\'... Next you\'ll be promulgating the glory of Thomas Edison\'s wax phonographs, as compared to Samsung\'s Galaxy 2.

Imperial is a system created by peasants to measure chunks of wood and piles of rocks. It has no place in science, no place in engineering, and no place in road signs. Its place, like slavery, capitalism, McDonalds, and other barbaric practices, is the ashheap of history.

[Reflector]

So you prefer a crippled smartphone OS that does not have integrated remote desktop, SSH or any other useful features? Lovely, I will keep using my Thinkpads then. Righto, futurist mentality right there. 'This is obviously very shiny when I use it so it must be infinitely superior to that vile, worthless *nix box hosting those websites! We should run everything on smartphone clouds, whatever a cloud is, it obviously is pure magic!'

Instead, I will leave this beautiful comment I snapped off Engadget here for you:

http://i.imgur.com/pkbHn.png

Also this page from Maddox demonstrating what can be done with smartphone OSes that\'d brick if you toyed around with them in the wrong way:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone (NSFW)

Ah, capitalism! Right, obviously China is not doing very well at all! We should eradicate those Chinese savages and then go into the streets like the French socialists and flip cars over in bloody protests! Yes, let us DESTROY those non socialists! Glory to destroying the Americans for having social security! Red glory my friend! Red glory. Obviously computers are next with smartphones since they\'re products of BLOODY CAPITALISM EXPLOITING THE WORKERS! DOWN WITH TECHNOLOGY! Let us live in 1940s Russia!

Oh right, socioeconomic systems are all equal if they were on computers and not imperfect beings like humans. Keep on using those silly arguments my friend. I also love how you can compare blade clusters, servers and workstations to a smartphone acting very proud in the process.

Stop using your pointless nationalistic and obviously intolerant views. This is the stuff that gets World Wars star--- Ah.

[Kryten]

Your beloved aerospace sector works in metric, you idiot. Hard Drives are all made in metric units as well, the inches are approximate. What your country did 50 years ago is irrelevant-anything still made by standards that old is backward. Even your \'Middle Eastern...people murdering each other\' all use metric units, and the only African stand-out is Liberia, a de facto ex US colony.

You realise Maddox is satire, right? He doesn\'t believe a single word he says.

If you think social security is the opposite of socialism, then you clearly haven\'t the faintest idea what socialism is.

And, of course, 1940\'s Russia, home of \'industry will solve everything\'-obviously anti technological.

[Reflector]

Your beloved aerospace sector works in metric, you idiot. Hard Drives are all made in metric units as well, the inches are approximate. What your country did 50 years ago is irrelevant-anything still made by standards that old is backward. Even your \'Middle Eastern...people murdering each other\' all use metric units, and the only African stand-out is Liberia, a de facto ex US colony.

You realise Maddox is satire, right? He doesn\'t believe a single word he says.

If you think social security is the opposite of socialism, then you clearly haven\'t the faintest idea what socialism is.

And, of course, 1940\'s Russia, home of \'industry will solve everything\'-obviously anti technological.

My, those [sarcasm] tags aren\'t working are they?

Also I hope you realize harddrives use inch/gb² for storage density measurements within the industry... Right?

[JupiterII]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units

There\'s just a few more countries that use metric than empiral

[Reflector]

I like how everyone ignores my posts. Or alternatively, skim over them and then make their own idea up about what I said.

Then they scream something about Americans being inferior (Something about this... Moon landing) and then how metric is the True Righteous System.

Ah, nevermind, I actually brought up SI a few posts back and how it doesn\'t use that awful decimal time system the French used. Oh, wait. The same standards guys that tried to push the metric system onto everyone? As in CGS metric too? Hmmmm oh wait... SI uses MKG.

Ah ha, I have an idea. Let me scream to others on the internet and say it is the GLORIOUS METRIC SYSTEM! and not this evil, impure thing called the 'SI' system.

[/sarcasm]

Just in case there are Minecraft players with learning disabilities here, because it seems that the sarcasm content of my posts are completely missed!

[Kryten]

Just in case there are Minecraft players with learning disabilities here, because it seems that the sarcasm content of my posts are completely missed!

If you\'ve not encountered someone who is genuinely that stupid, you are a very lucky man.

[Reflector]

Kryten, I thought what I described was the greater subset of the Minecraft player base anyways?

[Kryten]

I wouldn\'t know.

[Reflector]

You are familiar that the term 'learning disabilities' can cover many, many things right?

Are you familiar with that certain phrase of 'Minecraft is the <noun> incarnate' or 'Minecraft players are all <noun>'

If you\'re familiar with those phrases/jokes, then you\'d understand why those glaring sarcasm tags are needed... As it seems apparent that the mentality here is very, very similar. Something about being overly serious and screaming about the 'technical superiority' of one unit system. Kind of like a bunch of advanced script kiddies screaming their coding (As in the rare types that know how to code) is superior to each other... In 'very technical aspects' instead of cycles needed to execute.

[Capt'n Skunky]

[mod]Simmer down now![/mod]

Chill out folks, this is getting a bit heated in here.

Cheers!

Capt\'n Skunky

KSP Forum Moderator

[JupiterII]

Simmer down now!

Chill out folks, this is getting a bit heated in here.

Cheers!

Capt\'n Skunky

KSP Forum Moderator

I though you always said 'Arrr Capt\'n Skunky'

[Capt'n Skunky]

Depends on if I am acting as a member or a moderator.

Arrr!

Capt\'n Skunky