Chinese space program (Shenzhou, Tiangong-2, Long March 5 and more)

[Frogbull]

Shenzhou 10 just ended : Nie Haisheng, Zhang Xiaoguang and Wang Yaping are back on Earth.

What do you think of Chinese investment in space ?

They will soon have an equivalent to the Delta IV : Long March 5 (Changzheng 5), what do you think of it ?

How do you imagine the future Chinese space station (Tiangong-2) ?

Do you think they will walk on the Moon ?

In reaction, Russians, Americans and Europeans will they invest more in Space exploration ?

[Canopus]

Walk on the moon soon? I don't think so. Every nation in space is good but i wish the Chinese would do more collaboration with the other Spacefaring Nations.

[tek_604]

Every nation in space is good but i wish the Chinese would do more collaboration with the other Spacefaring Nations.

If only the other spacefaring nations would let them... mostly the States. Its actually illegal under US law to collaborate with China, indeed that law was tightened up further in 2011.

However, China did work with Russia, on trying to get to Mars (Phobos-Grunt), which failed spectacularly, and I'm assuming China won't do that again. That leaves ESA. I'm not sure what their status wrt China is, but, I'm assuming hands tied by the States. OK, I'm also ignoring India (who have their own goals), and then maybe South Korea, Brazil & Japan. Not sure what they plan either.

[Canopus]

If only the other spacefaring nations would let them... mostly the States. Its actually illegal under US law to collaborate with China, indeed that law was tightened up further in 2011.

However, China did work with Russia, on trying to get to Mars (Phobos-Grunt), which failed spectacularly, and I'm assuming China won't do that again. That leaves ESA. I'm not sure what their status wrt China is, but, I'm assuming hands tied by the States. OK, I'm also ignoring India (who have their own goals), and then maybe South Korea, Brazil & Japan. Not sure what they plan either.

Japan is closely working with the other i thought?

[Kryten]

What's with that space station shot? That's the ISS in early construction stages...

[Nibb31]

That space station looks a lot like the early ISS, yes. It's probably just a cheap illustration.

Tiangong-2 will be made of larger modules:

- A core module similar to the Mir Core (or Zvezda), but slightly larger, with a 5-port node on one end.

- Two lab modules.

- The Tiangong-1 design will be reused and repurposed as a supply vehicle for Tiangong-2.

One of the great things about the Shenzhou spacecraft (compared to Soyuz) is that its orbital module is independent and the Shenzhou can fly without it. This means they can be left on the station for extra storage or to serve as mini-labs.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Nibb31

[Kryten]

Tiangiong-2 isn't the modular station, just the next step towards it: monolithic station, 13-15 ton (small enough for CZ-7, much further along than -5), intended to be visited by at least one cargo module rebuilt from the Tiangong-1 backup module. Think Salyut 6 or 7.

[Nibb31]

Yes, you're right. Tiangong-2 is just to test the core module that will be used for Tiangong-3, which should end up being the modular station.

[Moon Goddess]

Ignoring any politics and any patriotic boasting I'm proud of them, it took a lot of people working very hard to get them to this point and no matter what there was definitely danger doing this.

[Cthulufaic]

China is now our only hope at space exploration.

; . ;7

[DerekL1963]

China is now our only hope at space exploration.

Seriously... just what mental gyrations does it take to arrive at that conclusion? China has a space program that one wouldn't even say was moving at a glacial pace, because glaciers speed about like race cars by comparison. Even continental drift implies a speed plainly absent. No, they aren't interested in space exploration - only in having just enough of a program to take their seat at the table of Great Nations and to provide propaganda for domestic consumption.

[Kryten]

Because it's clearly advancing so much slower than say, the russian space program. Or even ESA, in terms of new capabilities. You don't have to go very fast to come near the top in a race where everyone else is either at a standstill or actively going backwards.

[Drunkrobot]

How many other nations have put a space station, even a small one, into orbit, or even has the drive to do so? Without a doubt Russia/Soviet Union is one, and OPSEK is being planned. China now has, and is already planning for a bigger, better station. The US has put Skylab in orbit, though that is ancient history now, and now that their contribution to building the ISS is done, and the shuttles retired, what's next? In terms of having the capability to construct a space station, and the drive to actually build it, China is ahead.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Drunkrobot

[Frogbull]

China is ahead.

They are still behind, not enough experience and, for the moment, they do not innovated (a Soyouz like isn't a innovation as a Saliout Like).

However, if other countries did not move quickly, they could surpass everyone in 20 years.

[Nibb31]

That is just as stupid as saying that Orion and SLS are not innovations compared to Apollo and Saturn.

At least China has an operational manned spacecraft and a funded roadmap for the next decade. That is more than any other country at the moment.

[Frogbull]

That is just as stupid as saying that Orion and SLS are not innovations compared to Apollo and Saturn.

Don't be agressive please ; the Moon return of the Constellation Program wasn't a "big" innovation (my point of view and one of the reasons cited for its annulaiton), it was an Apollo "updated". And SLS is just a new version of the Ares V (which was canceled).

Orion project, Ion engines, Boeing X-51 (scramjet engine), X-33/Space Shuttle/Buran. Heavy Launch vehicles (Saturn V, Energia, Delta IV). Robotic (Venera, Spirit, Opportunity, Moon rover). Lived long time in Space.

All these experiences/technologies, the Chinese don't have them atm. They learn slowly but surely and don't forget they copied a part (not all, they have their own solutions and do not demerit their place) of their program on the Russians (like the ISS with the Mir experience).

At least China has an operational manned spacecraft and a funded roadmap for the next decade. That is more than any other country at the moment.

The future is not a straight road, things can change abruptly, as history has shown by the past.

[MalletFace]

I love manned exploration, but unmanned launches are just as important to progress. China is readying for the launch of Chang'e 3, and it will be the first rover to make a landing there in a long time. That is if it all goes well, however.

[Person012345]

I think it's good. Since the US doesn't care about space any more, maybe china will make the discoveries instead. I don't much care who does it, so long as they're made.

[Frogbull]

I think it's good. Since the US doesn't care about space any more, maybe china will make the discoveries instead. I don't much care who does it, so long as they're made.

I can't imagine the American ego will not react if the Chinese surpass them.

We must not forget that JFK launched the lunar program after being overtaken by Gagarin.

The story would probably not have been the same if the Soviets had also set foot on the Moon (with a functional N1).

Competition is good in general.

[Kryten]

So apparently using effectively an updated soyuz means the Chinese are behind A) people who still use the actual soyuz and people with nothing at all. That makes perfect sense.

[Frogbull]

So apparently using effectively an updated soyuz means the Chinese are behind A) people who still use the actual soyuz and people with nothing at all. That makes perfect sense.

If I understand you, we must consider the Soviets were technological advanced between 1975 and 1981 ?

(USA don't sending humans into space during this period)

The manned flight is not all. It's true that it's impressive (you don't have a movie about Venera/Rover explorations, but you have Apollo 13, Mission to Mars, Sci-Fi with manned flights, etc.).

Tomorrow's technologies have to be invented. Engineers will never be TV stars but they do a titanic work, don't forget it.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Frogbull

[Kryten]

There's a lot more than crewed flights yes, which is why I've no idea you insist they're still behind the Russians, who are effectively incapable of anything else these days. Just look at beyond-earth exploration; China have now successfully made and launched two lunar orbit missions, one of which was capable enough they were able to do an asteroid flyby with it. In the same time period the Russians launched... one mars probe which didn't even get beyond LEO. In fact they haven't launched a single working BEO mission since the fall.

[Frogbull]

In fact they haven't launched a single working BEO mission since the fall.

You are right, the fall of the Soviet Union knocked out the Russian space program.

But the Russians have sent probes to the Moon, Mars, Venus, they still have the plans of Energia and Buran. They have the experience of Mir.

The finances of Russia are much better now than in 90's, they lack the political will. But they can get back into the race quickly, just as Americans. This is why I still consider the Chinese behind (but at the rate they are going, they might lead the race in less than 20 years).

[Kryten]

So what they were capable of doing thirty years ago means they're ahead now? Plans mean nothing if they don't have the tooling anymore, which they don't. Why do you think NASA isn't just restarting saturn production?

[Frogbull]

So what they were capable of doing thirty years ago means they're ahead now? Plans mean nothing if they don't have the tooling anymore, which they don't. Why do you think NASA isn't just restarting saturn production?

Russians can sell Space Travel to richest tourists !! (sad joke ^^)

But yes, they have the plans so the Russians can do it again, but what interest except the glory ?

And please, 30 years ago... Buran spaceflight in 1988, Zarya in 1998 (1st ISS module) was built by Russians (USA just financed it). The many success of their Protons and Soyouz. Their new launcher (Angara). Do not be contemptuous, they have evolved since 80's. They work(ed) on Kliper, Phobos-Grunt, Venera-D, Louna-Glob.

And for your NASA question, I'm a Saturn V fan...

I'm one of the people who think stopping the Saturn program is the worst bull**** NASA has done. Why they don't improved the Saturn like the Semiorka (Semiorka -> Vostok -> Soyouz) ???

I don't know, probably a stupid decision because of morons politicians who saw in the Shuttle program a lower cost (hindsight, what a mistake...).

Just think of the ISS, 30 launches just for the assembly : 400 tons in LEO; Skylab it's 90 tons in LEO; so we can easily imagine only five Saturn V were needed to build the ISS !

But the Saturn V was not perfect (despite its failure rate of 0 it has a lot of problem : pogo oscillation, engines problems) and it costed a lot (less than the Shuttle Program; I know but... yeah, easy with hindsight).

The Cold War justified that take foolish risks and huge budgets, it is no longer the case now (which did not prevent accidents).

I know NASA want to build Ares V/SLS; a Saturn V clone... I know that. But will they get the money ?

Chinese go into Space primarily to demonstrate their power. But what China does now (at the moment), the Russians and the Americans can do it.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Frogbull