Would you cheat death?

[Paprika]

Anybody realized that being immortal does not automatically guarantee you remain free from damage...

given enough time, your damage would be massive.

Hopefully by then we'll have sweet prosthetics! I want me some robot limbs!

[Flixxbeatz]

Anybody realized that being immortal does not automatically guarantee you remain free from damage...

given enough time, your damage would be massive.

Especially if you have been hit on your weak point...

[EwIck]

I would do it, knowing full well that data can be erased if I ever change my mind

[glacierre]

That's nothing more than a phylisofical question. Something that's in every way an identical copy, including your thaughts, memorys, and everything, is the same person in my opinion.

The "what happens to the original" has been brushed away rather quickly in my opinion.

Say, you can go to sleep with a helmet and then your mind is uploaded to a computer, then your body dies and "you" live forever. OK.

But, you wake up still in your body and you ask "did the upload fail?". And they tell _you_: "no, we just forgot to kill you, please wait a minute while we find a gun..."

Would _you_ sit peacefully and dismiss the question as "philosofical"?

Sci fi novel for the topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Moon

[Brabbit1987]

Anybody realized that being immortal does not automatically guarantee you remain free from damage...

given enough time, your damage would be massive.

Kinda confused what you mean by this. As far as I am aware any damage you get can also be repaired. Given enough time the more easily you can repair too. It's not like those damages remain damages.

[hawkwing]

Well, seeing as how dying gives no particular advantage towards anything whatsoever and if I ever get sick of living I doubt I'd be "trapped" in my mechanical conciousness, I've got to go with paprika. I can't see why you'd *want* a hard deadline on your life.

[7499275]

Well it depends on the state of the world at the point and time. If there was social unrest I would face death as I am very curious as to what lies beyond our meager lives. If we lived in a utopia on the other hand I would have to remain alive to enjoy all the things life can offer and see what technology becomes later on.

But I would guess that the world would be chaos and I would just take death over living in a hellish world.

[brooksy125]

Screw being stored in a robot, I'll just steal Radigan Cohnagers blueprints and build a life extending machine.

Is that a tf2 reference?

[recon14193]

I don't really think it would be cheating death though. You transfer your memories and your personality, but you don't transfer your consciousness. Both you and the computer copy could exist at the same time, but I feel it would be like having a clone, not like you are living as if you are a computer. I feel in the end the body and in essence you would still die, but the copy inside the computer would live on. However, it is still not you.

[Devo]

In the future I assume that humans will finally defeat our ultimate enemy, death itself by storing our consciousness on computers.

My question for you is would you save yourself or face the end?

I personally would save my consciousness on a machine if I had guarantees thatit is truly me on the machine not just a perfect copy.

[9911MU51C]

I would for the knowledge. Of course it'd hurt seeing loved ones dying and whatnot, but I think it'd be worth it

[Sirrobert]

The "what happens to the original" has been brushed away rather quickly in my opinion.

Say, you can go to sleep with a helmet and then your mind is uploaded to a computer, then your body dies and "you" live forever. OK.

But, you wake up still in your body and you ask "did the upload fail?". And they tell _you_: "no, we just forgot to kill you, please wait a minute while we find a gun..."

Would _you_ sit peacefully and dismiss the question as "philosofical"?

Sci fi novel for the topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Moon

That's not exactly what I meant with philosofical

I meant it more in the way of 'there is no way we can definitifly awnser that with arguments'

But you are right, I'm pritty sure I would not

[Brabbit1987]

I don't really think it would be cheating death though. You transfer your memories and your personality, but you don't transfer your consciousness. Both you and the computer copy could exist at the same time, but I feel it would be like having a clone, not like you are living as if you are a computer. I feel in the end the body and in essence you would still die, but the copy inside the computer would live on. However, it is still not you.

Already discussed that there are probably many ways around that.

Worst video ever. I don't respect anyone who tries to put religion into their arguments.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[John FX]

Kinda confused what you mean by this. As far as I am aware any damage you get can also be repaired. Given enough time the more easily you can repair too. It's not like those damages remain damages.

What I mean is, most people here are assuming that a society will survive and support/repair them with technological advancements. Those people do not have a grasp of how much time immortal means. Damage can only be repaired if society has the ability to do so because simply being immortal does not guarantee self-repairing and limb-regrowing. What if `immortal` is a one time treatment that heals and rejuvenates but then you cannot have the treatment again and have to rely on normal medical procedures? Most human societies destroy themselves in short order (On the timescale of centuries to millennia, no time at all to an immortal) and so you would rely on your own abilities. You as an individual can only repair damage if you have the ability personally, which you would not have if say you lost all your limbs, eyes, ears, tongue etc in a fire. At that point you would rely on the rest of society having the technological advancement to repair you (as well as the desire). This could leave you in the state of being dumb, deaf, blind and limbless without the ability to inform others of your immortality or even that you are human. Imagine the treatment you would then have for the rest of eternity...

Given enough time, the possibility of any accident reaches 1. Given enough time even the chance that a machine that auto repairs you fails during repair leaving you in the above state and unable to exit the machine reaches 1...

Given enough time *something will* happen that leaves you in that state (or worse). It is not chance anymore with enough time, it is certainty.

Given enough time the unrepairable damage you suffer will be massive. But hey, maybe you have a good few thousand centuries first?

Then the billions of years waiting in pain for the sun to go nova to atomise you to end your suffering...

[Brabbit1987]

What I mean is, most people here are assuming that a society will survive and support/repair them with technological advancements. Those people do not have a grasp of how much time immortal means. Damage can only be repaired if society has the ability to do so because simply being immortal does not guarantee self-repairing and limb-regrowing. What if `immortal` is a one time treatment that heals and rejuvenates but then you cannot have the treatment again and have to rely on normal medical procedures? Most human societies destroy themselves in short order (On the timescale of centuries to millennia, no time at all to an immortal) and so you would rely on your own abilities. You as an individual can only repair damage if you have the ability personally, which you would not have if say you lost all your limbs, eyes, ears, tongue etc in a fire. At that point you would rely on the rest of society having the technological advancement to repair you (as well as the desire). This could leave you in the state of being dumb, deaf, blind and limbless without the ability to inform others of your immortality or even that you are human. Imagine the treatment you would then have for the rest of eternity...

Given enough time, the possibility of any accident reaches 1. Given enough time even the chance that a machine that auto repairs you fails during repair leaving you in the above state and unable to exit the machine reaches 1...

Given enough time *something will* happen that leaves you in that state (or worse). It is not chance anymore with enough time, it is certainty.

Given enough time the unrepairable damage you suffer will be massive. But hey, maybe you have a good few thousand centuries first?

Then the billions of years waiting in pain for the sun to go nova to atomise you to end your suffering...

I simply do not agree with you. If you are part machine, you essentially can learn how to repair anything. I think you are forgetting that factor. You are no longer limited to the learning process of a human. Actually, once humans integrate themselves with machines, it's suppose to cause a very large jump in intelligence called a technological singularity.

As for the chances, I have discussed this before. In order for that chance to be 1, that chance needs to exist. Example, there is a chance one day you could face an earthquake, however, that chance is 0 if you are in space. Just to give you an idea of what I mean. Ya sure, everyone has a chance for particular things to happen to them, but just because you live forever, doesn't make that chance equal 1, because that would mean the chances stay consistent through out your entire life span which just is not the case. Then you also have to think about, will these problems always exist? You have immortality, I am sure you can turn those chances to 0 if you thought of a way too.

[Sirrobert]

You can never turn a chance to 0. We are not talking about a specific accident here, we are talking about *an* accident that leaves some crippling damage. That can be anything, from an astroid strike, to you falling into a hole and reliving that movie 127 hours. Eventually, something will happen that leaves you crippled

[Brabbit1987]

You can never turn a chance to 0. We are not talking about a specific accident here, we are talking about *an* accident that leaves some crippling damage. That can be anything, from an astroid strike, to you falling into a hole and reliving that movie 127 hours. Eventually, something will happen that leaves you crippled

Really, so you think an earthquake can happen in space? Because as far as i am aware, the chance of an earth quake happening in space is 0. It can only happen on EARTH. So if you not there, it's a 0% chance.

If we are talking about any and all types of accident, I suppose, but again I don't see how you would be crippled. You would just repair yourself. If you can't repair yourself, then that is technically your own damned fault, because you most certainly would have the capabilities too do it. Also, who is to say you will not have an auto repair function

? Also why the hell would you be alone?

Also besides this, immortality really has nothing to do with this, this can happen to you with out immortality.

Everyone now is just using their bogus speculation .. oh what if this, .. and what if that. Jeez .. really? The universe is going to freaken END anyway, so immortality is impossible >.> .. why don't we jsut go there ? Since everyone wants to go all specific about every little detail as if it's some crazy thought.

You know like as if this somehow would change my mind on the matter. But really if it happens it freaken happens. . who the hell cares. I gained a hell a lot more out of it then lost.

*sighs* I am going to take a break from this thread, people are starting to piss me off where their .. crap.

[KOCOUR]

You can never turn a chance to 0. We are not talking about a specific accident here, we are talking about *an* accident that leaves some crippling damage. That can be anything, from an astroid strike, to you falling into a hole and reliving that movie 127 hours. Eventually, something will happen that leaves you crippled

And thats reason to stay mortal?

You will never be totaly immortal, odds are that sooner or later something damage you so much that you will not even be selfaware anymore, thus practicaly dead.

But i still rather take my chances and see how long ill survive, then the stupid certainity that i will not see next century.

[Sirrobert]

I thought I already mentioned that, but let's go again:

We are not talking about a SPECIFIC accident, we are talking about AN accident. Autorepair can get broken. It happends all the time, autorepair broken is the reason cancer can exist. Your cells have autorepair functions. They are not perfect, and sometimes a mutation happends in those functions. Hell you even have multiple of them and they still can't always stop every problem.

You accuse us of speculation, but you are just as much speculating that immortality would come with a perfect auto repair function

[Brabbit1987]

And thats reason to stay mortal?

You will never be totaly immortal, odds are that sooner or later something damage you so much that you will not even be selfaware anymore, thus practicaly dead.

But i still rather take my chances and see how long ill survive, then the stupid certainity that i will not see next century.

That's pretty much my stance on it. lol you got the point across much clearer then I could in a much shorter paragraph. XD I was struggling with my last post to try and explain what I meant. So thanks. =^.^=

[Brabbit1987]

I thought I already mentioned that, but let's go again:

We are not talking about a SPECIFIC accident, we are talking about AN accident. Autorepair can get broken. It happends all the time, autorepair broken is the reason cancer can exist. Your cells have autorepair functions. They are not perfect, and sometimes a mutation happends in those functions. Hell you even have multiple of them and they still can't always stop every problem.

You accuse us of speculation, but you are just as much speculating that immortality would come with a perfect auto repair function

Ok Let us say autorepair just happens to be broken when this accident occurs which I suppose could happen. Then what? You die? AWSOME! ... What the heck is your point? If it happens .... it happens, I don't see what this changes.

Edit: You are pretty much saying it's bad to become immortal or something because you will experience death later rather then sooner. If that is the case, might as well just not go to the hospital if your having a heart attack, why bother extending your life? You could technically just end up being hit by a bus a week later.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[Tw1]

I don't believe it is possible to upload a mind. The mind is the machine (brain) that experiences the consciousness. A machine that simulates you, even perfectly, will not be you. It may seem it to others though.

[Brabbit1987]

I don't believe it is possible to upload a mind. The mind is the machine (brain) that experiences the consciousness. A machine that simulates you, even perfectly, will not be you. It may seem it to others though.

I disagree. Course if you read the thread you would know that lol. People say I am basing things on speculation, but not really. There is more evidence to support that it is possible, then that it isn't possible. We already have technologies that can alter emotion by implanting a chip into the brain. We already know the brain works with frequencies. We also know we can simulate senses. There is nothing to suggest, you can't simulate the entire brain. Nor is their any evidence to suggest, that you couldn't transfer yourself to a machine. There is also no evidence to suggest that it wouldn't be you.

Edit: Course I do know there is no actual evidence of it being true either, but you can come up with an educated guess by just looking at what we have already done and what we are already capable of.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[recon14193]

I disagree. Course if you read the thread you would know that lol. People say I am basing things on speculation, but not really. There is more evidence to support that it is possible, then that it isn't possible. We already have technologies that can alter emotion by implanting a chip into the brain. We already know the brain works with frequencies. We also know we can simulate senses. There is nothing to suggest, you can't simulate the entire brain. Nor is their any evidence to suggest, that you couldn't transfer yourself to a machine. There is also no evidence to suggest that it wouldn't be you.

Edit: Course I do know there is no actual evidence of it being true either, but you can come up with an educated guess by just looking at what we have already done and what we are already capable of.

Where is the evidence though to suggest that you could transfer yourself? I would agree that yes you could stimulate the brain, but it seems more like a coin flip at this moment. I feel like we don't know if we will really be or if we will not be. I still feel the problem is of if we are the machine. When we die, the machine has our personality and our memories, but is it really us because we can upload ourselves before we die. We could see this machine that is us, but are we it is what I mean. Would we feel the same sort of control over it that we feel over our body at the exact same time, or would we feel this wall of separation staring at this machine that is in essence us, but we will rot and it will last as a monument to us in a way? I know that there are experiments already where man controls machine, but the send and receive source is still the human brain. I mean will we know, understand, feel, completely mesh with this machine that we are suppose to see as us. I find it as more plausible if you find a way to indefinitely preserve the brain or head like in Futurama sort of. I don't understand completely destroying all of our body. I don't see how it can become completely us. The consciousness that makes us know that this is me. This is where I am. I don't know how we transfer that. I still feel that there would be a wall of separation between our body and the machine with us feel that we are still us and the machine is a copy because it does not have that connection or thing that makes us that. I dont know how we could feel that dual existence then have our entire body that feels die and still feel that we are not dead but alive in a computer. We can also come up with our own educated guess that it wouldn't work because of this. I agree we can stimulate, but not transfer our being. Our current experiments show we can control the mind and stimulate machines, but not that we could transfer our being but we could transfer personalities and memories.

Edited July 18, 2013 by recon14193

[Brabbit1987]

Where is the evidence though to suggest that you could transfer yourself? I would agree that yes you could stimulate the brain, but it seems more like a coin flip at this moment. I feel like we don't know if we will really be or if we will not be. I still feel the problem is of if we are the machine. When we die, the machine has our personality and our memories, but is it really us because we can upload ourselves before we die. We could see this machine that is us, but are we it is what I mean. Would we feel the same sort of control over it that we feel over our body at the exact same time, or would we feel this wall of separation staring at this machine that is in essence us, but we will rot and it will last as a monument to us in a way? I know that there are experiments already where man controls machine, but the send and receive source is still the human brain. I mean will we know, understand, feel, completely mesh with this machine that we are suppose to see as us. I find it as more plausible if you find a way to indefinitely preserve the brain or head like in Futurama sort of. I don't understand completely destroying all of our body. I don't see how it can become completely us. The consciousness that makes us know that this is me. This is where I am. I don't know how we transfer that. I still feel that there would be a wall of separation between our body and the machine with us feel that we are still us and the machine is a copy because it does not have that connection or thing that makes us that. I dont know how we could feel that dual existence then have our entire body that feels die and still feel that we are not dead but alive in a computer. We can also come up with our own educated guess that it wouldn't work because of this. I agree we can stimulate, but not transfer our being. Our current experiments show we can control the mind and stimulate machines, but not that we could transfer our being but we could transfer personalities and memories.

Consciousness is controlled by the frontal lobe of your brain. We already know we can replicate the brain. That means in the process we would replicate the portion of the brain that enables consciousness. So linking your brain to that artificial brain would pretty much make you aware of both instances at the same time. You would be aware of yourself in your body, and in the machine. Then you simply just disconnect the body, and you are finished. It's sort of like setting up hard drives in a raid format.

Consciousness really is only a form of memory the way I see it. As long as you have the memories of being transferred over, you are you and you wouldn't experience the whole death portion of it.

An example of what your talking about could technically happen every time you go to sleep. However, it doesn't mean you are dead lol. The only reason why you are able to say it's you is because you are left in the same place and in the same body. What would happen if you just randomly wake up, with no memories. Are you the same person? Are "you" technically dead since you are no longer aware of yourself in that consciousness. Even if you memories are restored, how do you know, you didn't already die and it's just a copy of yourself, like a restore function of an OS.

This really then gets a bit confusing because you also have to ask, what is death then? Is there even such thing as truly dead? Well I suppose once your body is entirely decomposed, ya lol, you will be as dead as you can possibly be.

So basically your brain, memories, and all that, is 'you'. Copying it, is still 'you'. It's simply just another instance of yourself. However from then on they become a different person because they begin having different newly formed memories. However, as I said earlier, you can get rid of this idea if you raid the 2 together, they both are aware. Hmm .. not sure if anyone watches Naruto here, but a good example would be like the Paths of Pain.

Edit: Which leads me to an idea for repairing yourself, who says you can't have your consciousness uploaded into multiple machines that communicate with each other? If an accident happends, the others would be aware and you can go and repair yourself XD.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Brabbit1987