Kerbin Mini Shuttle

[helldiver]

may i suggest blue seats.

Yeah, the seat cushions will be blue.

Although after I did the carpet, blue seat cushions might bleed a bit. So I might experiment with other colors, like burgundy.

Already started texturing. It's a meticulous process since I'm loosely basing the instruments on a 777 and on Atlantis. Nothing is realistic (I don't want it to be), but everything looks functional. Radios are where they would be, auto-braking/gearing panels where they would be. I shortened up all the labels and such since a lot of those details is lost at that resolution. Besides you won't be looking down at the center console or overhead ones for long.

It would be impossible for us to do an FMC. Not planning on it, maybe in the super-future if there is enough demands, people like the KSO, and we continue to support it, I might convince someone to help me program one (Flight Management Computer). Maybe make it into MechJeb but inside the cockpit. Afterall, an FMC is pretty much MechJeb for an airliner.

How about these for inspiration? I think were at one point ejection seats, the ones that are the rear set of cockpit chairs from the Falcon. I've always wanted a set of those.

The KSO uses F-14 Inspired ejection seat looking things. If you scroll back a bit I posted a picture of them, they look really cool.

Fluff

The Murica corporation was at a loss to what seats the KSO would use. They experimented with all sorts of contraptions including lawn chairs. In the end they settled on using the same seats as those used on one of their fighter jets. Murica Corp. originally intended for the KSO to have fully functioning zero-G ejection seats (one of the contract stipulations by the KSP). Unfortunately the KSO's airframe was designed by VEG Design Group, who was adamant about cutting holes on the roof of the flight deck in order for the seats to punch through. After much lobbying, KSP and Murica Corp. were eventually convinced to drop the ejection seat idea and instead install a fast escape system. The seats were then converted to have fully functional survival equipment (first aid kit, oxygen and nitrogen canisters, temperature control, and High-G auto-inclination system).

I'll post more pics of everything tomorrow when I finish up more of the flight deck. I'm marathoning this as much as I can.

Edited August 12, 2013 by helldiver

[ZRM]

Yeah, the seat cushions will be blue.

Although after I did the carpet, blue seat cushions might bleed a bit. So I might experiment with other colors, like burgundy.

Already started texturing. It's a meticulous process since I'm loosely basing the instruments on a 777 and on Atlantis. Nothing is realistic (I don't want it to be), but everything looks functional. Radios are where they would be, auto-braking/gearing panels where they would be. I shortened up all the labels and such since a lot of those details is lost at that resolution. Besides you won't be looking down at the center console or overhead ones for long.

It would be impossible for us to do an FMC. Not planning on it, maybe in the super-future if there is enough demands, people like the KSO, and we continue to support it, I might convince someone to help me program one (Flight Management Computer). Maybe make it into MechJeb but inside the cockpit. Afterall, an FMC is pretty much MechJeb for an airliner.

Under a different name, an IVA FMC has been on my to-do list for a long while, as are all the IVA electronic instruments. Your project has given me an excuse to work on these things. Once the MFD displays are all in working order, the FMC is next on my list.

Also, I have been thinking about how unsuitable an ADI is for orbital flight. We really need an electronic navball like the one used in the STS. I have put that on my to-do list as well.

[MainSailor]

IVA models look great! Well thought-out. Utilitarian and functional without being needlessly flashy.

[helldiver]

Under a different name, an IVA FMC has been on my to-do list for a long while, as are all the IVA electronic instruments. Your project has given me an excuse to work on these things. Once the MFD displays are all in working order, the FMC is next on my list.

Also, I have been thinking about how unsuitable an ADI is for orbital flight. We really need an electronic navball like the one used in the STS. I have put that on my to-do list as well.

The ADI works perfectly for orbital flight, there is almost zero difference between an ADI and a nav-ball. The only thing is that the ADI doesn't have the heading markers on the gimbal. However, you don't need the heading markers on the gimbal since you are putting that information on the compass tape.

All you would have to do, is put an orbital direction tape on the ADI and you have a digital navball.

That's what NAV mode was supposed to be. It replaces the ADI's Compass tape with the orbital direction tape, both devices are essentially a gyro. In NAV mode, the ADI switches its pitch markers to 0-90. So on launch you would select NAV on the MFD. You get the same ADI you would get in HDG mode. Except that the gimbal pitch markers have 0 at the top, 90 at the horizon. You can superimpose cardinal degrees on it, but that's just confusing when you can simply use the compass tape to show heading.

Also, I thought the in-game Navball had the ability for you switch between Orbit and land modes?

Edited August 12, 2013 by helldiver

[ZRM]

The ADI works perfectly for orbital flight, there is almost zero difference between an ADI and a nav-ball. The only thing is that the ADI doesn't have the heading markers on the gimbal. However, you don't need the heading markers on the gimbal since you are putting that information on the compass tape.

All you would have to do, is put an orbital direction tape on the ADI and you have a digital navball (East 0-90, West 0-90, etcetera).

That's what NAV mode was supposed to be. It replaces the ADI's Compass tape with the orbital direction tape.

The thing I was concerned about was how best to represent targeting pointers (for example for rendezvous). How do you accurately represent the direction in which the vessel should rotate to point at the target? After thinking about it a bit more, I think the best way would be to have a marker that moves around the border of the ADI representing the direction to the target, possibly also with an angular distance readout next to it. Also if you have a normal ADI, with a standard 120 degree bank indicator how do you display the banking angle? In space any orientation is valid and used equally as often as any other, two thirds of which would not be adequately represented. All I can think is that the layout would have to be modified to allow for a fully square ADI gimbal with a 360 degree bank indicator.

Edit: Either that or have a bank readout at the top of the ADI.

Edited August 12, 2013 by ZRM

[helldiver]

What the MFD shows when you select NAV mode.

-Gimbal flips to 90 horizon, 0 sky pitch

-NO Cardinal heading on the gimbal. This is to avoid clutter. I find the KSP Navball confusing.

-Heading is on the compass tape at the bottom. The main cardinal directions in degrees, the tick marker is replaced with the cardinal letter (0 marker with N, 180 with S, 90 with E, 270 for W). At every 45 degrees, you have an additional cardinal marker, 45 would show NE, 135 SE, and so on.

-At the top where it says NORTH 000, that would be replaced with the cardinal heading and the digital degrees number (i.e. NORTH 010, EAST 126) and so on (there would be a 45 degree blend before it flips and says the next cardinal direction. So it only shows north if you are between 315 and 45 for example (would show west or east if you are less than 315 or greater than 45 respectively).

-Altitude and Speed tapes are Blue to denote that they are not in Knots and Feet anymore but in Meters Per Second, Meters respectively.

[helldiver]

The thing I was concerned about was how best to represent targeting pointers (for example for rendezvous). How do you accurately represent the direction in which the vessel should rotate to point at the target? After thinking about it a bit more, I think the best way would be to have a marker that moves around the border of the ADI representing the direction to the target, possibly also with an angular distance readout next to it. Also if you have a normal ADI, with a standard 120 degree bank indicator how do you display the banking angle? In space any orientation is valid and used equally as often as any other, two thirds of which would not be adequately represented. All I can think is that the layout would have to be modified to allow for a fully square ADI gimbal with a 360 degree bank indicator.

Edit: Either that or have a bank readout at the top of the ADI.

Ahh I getcha.

For targetting pointers just steal the default ones. They would come up in Nav mode as I show above (Retro, Pro, Maneuver and so on). They'd appear in your gimbal as they do normally.

For roll indicator do what real aircraft do, the roll indicator at the top can read more information if you go beyond 120, you don't have to make it a full circle (the readout increases the numbers).

[ZRM]

Ahh I getcha.

For targetting pointers just steal the default ones. They would come up in Nav mode as I show above (Retro, Pro, Maneuver and so on). They'd appear in your gimbal as they do normally.

For roll indicator do what real aircraft do, the roll indicator at the top can read more information if you go beyond 120, you don't have to make it a full circle (the readout increases the numbers).

Yeah, I was just about to reply to your previous post saying "please read my last post, I know all of what you just said".

I don't think just using a similar mechanism to the normal navball targeting would be a good idea, mostly due to the much more limited field of view of the ADI (at most about 50 degrees vertical). I think peripheral directional markers are a must.

Regarding the banking indicator, I was just wondering whether there was an alternative compact intuitive way to display it. I guess not. I'll just add a numerical readout.

[helldiver]

Yeah, exactly.

Check this one:

I like the Prograde Retro, Target, etc, being ticks on the compass tape:

-The targets also show up as Ticks on the compass tape, allowing me to Yaw to the correct heading.

-The targets also come up on the pitch ladder (similar to an ILS approach instrument). This allows me to set the proper pitch to the target. Note that both are off center because both targets are not at 0 degrees. However, we don't have to have them do that, you can simply put ticks on the Pitch ladder and another tick on the Heading tape. You simply Yaw to the heading on the compass tape, and Pitch to the tick on the pitch ladder, if you wanted to simply things even further.

-If roll is a factor, simply put another tick on the roll marker.

If we can pull off this tool, I don't see a lot of people using the Navball. By the way, the cockpit has spots for Navballs and you can see it a few posts back.

[Edit] This instrument assumes that propulsion is at the rear of the KSO, and that the KSO does most of its maneuvers nose first. We would need to implement a docking camera in order to properly dock with the auxiliary docking module.

Edited August 12, 2013 by helldiver

[ZRM]

Yeah, exactly.

Check this one:

I like the Prograde Retro, Target, etc, being ticks on the compass tape:

Re the compass tape: That was something I was going to do anyway.

And I suppose the most intuitive way to display the directions that are out of view is to just display them as being on the border of the field of view, with only half of the marker visible. Also, only the closest marker for a pair of directions would be visible, so that there is no needless clutter of displaying both the prograde and retrograde markers at once.

[helldiver]

Fantastic!

So we've got the NAV mode figured out. The only modes missing is ILS and the ENG (Engine) display.

Regardless, folks are going to have to learn to work the ADI and the NAV. Also, keep in mind that you are already relaying the information of the directions that are out of view by having the compass down below. Unless I'm missing something. For example, I know right now I'm pointed 0 North. If I yaw right, I know I'm going to start heading east because the compass tape will start increasing above 0 and the E will eventually come up when I hit 90 degrees. Also at the top the North will switch to East. So I don't see a need to show the directions that are not visible.

Unless I'm missing something, hrm.

[Edit] I think we're saying the same thing, lol!

[ZRM]

Fantastic!

So we've got the NAV mode figured out. The only modes missing is ILS and the ENG (Engine) display.

Regardless, folks are going to have to learn to work the ADI and the NAV. Also, keep in mind that you are already relaying the information of the directions that are out of view by having the compass down below. Unless I'm missing something. For example, I know right now I'm pointed 0 North. If I yaw right, I know I'm going to start heading east because the compass tape will start increasing above 0 and the E will eventually come up when I hit 90 degrees. Also at the top the North will switch to East. So I don't see a need to show the directions that are not visible.

Unless I'm missing something, hrm.

Say you're pointing North. The direction to the target happens to be at an inclination of 60 degrees from East. If you didn't have any indication of this out-of-view direction at all you would first have to guess where it is by rotating so that the compass spins so that the heading to the target is visible. You would then have to guess whether to look down or up to find the target on the ADI. So really you need indication of out-of-view directions on at least the ADI gimbal.

[Gristle]

On Kerbin the stock navball uses north as its reference point. Once you leave the Kerbin SOI what does the stock nav ball use as its reference point?

[ZRM]

On Kerbin the stock navball uses north as its reference point. Once you leave the Kerbin SOI what does the stock nav ball use as its reference point?

North on the navball is always North on the currently orbited celestial body. So in interplanetary flight this would be North on Kerbol (the star).

[shadowsutekh]

So what will be interactable in the IVA? Will it be like the firespitter apache IVA where there are toggle switches for most of the actions?

[ZRM]

So what will be interactable in the IVA? Will it be like the firespitter apache IVA where there are toggle switches for most of the actions?

As far as I understand, interaction from the pilot/co-pilot seats will be limited to buttons around each MFD for selecting the display mode and a few switches on the overhead panel for enabling/disabling things. Presumably the ILS will need an interface at some point, but that has yet to be discussed. Not sure whether the MFDs are integrating the docking console as well or if that is still a separate console.

[shadowsutekh]

Sounds awesome, can't wait to use this thing, thanks to both of you for keeping us so updated and in the loop.

[David156]

Looks pretty amazing, I would love to be a beta tester if you need one

[DisarmingBaton5]

May I suggest a separate navball screen on the MFD (A screen that integrates the compass and pitch-thingy)? Using the ADI alone looks like it will be a bit confusing.

[ZRM]

May I suggest a separate navball screen on the MFD (A screen that integrates the compass and pitch-thingy)? Using the ADI alone looks like it will be a bit confusing.

The ADI is one component of the PFD (Primary Flight Display), which is one of the MFD modes. The PFD currently will consist of the ADI (this primarily indicates pitch and roll), heading indicator (yaw), airspeed indicator, vertical airspeed indicator and the altimeter. This is more information than you would get from a navball, and nearly all of what you need for normal atmospheric flight. PFDs are designed so that 99% of the time you won't need to (or want to) look at anything else.

[drtedastro]

The ADI is one component of the PFD (Primary Flight Display), which is one of the MFD modes. The PFD currently will consist of the ADI (this primarily indicates pitch and roll), heading indicator (yaw), airspeed indicator, vertical airspeed indicator and the altimeter. This is more information than you would get from a navball, and nearly all of what you need for normal atmospheric flight. PFDs are designed so that 99% of the time you won't need to (or want to) look at anything else.

That sounds fine, actually great for atmospheric flight, but there will be a need for 'navball' display for non-atmospheric flight as well. This will be especially true for docking and such.

[ZRM]

That sounds fine, actually great for atmospheric flight, but there will be a need for 'navball' display for non-atmospheric flight as well. This will be especially true for docking and such.

You need to read approximately the last 10-15 posts - there is a detailed discussion of the use of the PFD for orbital flight. It will be able to work well, and it should be easier to use than the navball. To further aid orbital manoeuvres there will also be the orbital display mode that will function as a replacement for the map view. Docking is a different matter, and there is a display mode dedicated to it which will include a video feed from the onboard docking camera. Also remember that there are 6 MFD displays in the cockpit.

Edited August 12, 2013 by ZRM

[drtedastro]

All fine and good, and very fancy and nice, but I just happen to like the navball. Just a simple question, will it still be available or not? Same with the question I asker earlier, 20 or 30 posts ago, regarding the craft display marker being either a --v-- or /\ or both. That is all I am asking.

[ZRM]

All fine and good, and very fancy and nice, but I just happen to like the navball. Just a simple question, will it still be available or not? Same with the question I asker earlier, 20 or 30 posts ago, regarding the craft display marker being either a --v-- or /\ or both. That is all I am asking.

As Helldiver has mentioned recently, the original navball will be in the cockpit. As I have mentioned recently, the instrumentation is entirely customisable, so it is easy to change the symbol to whatever you like. I could easily provide a selection of symbols. Helldiver has also suggested that the symbol used is dependent on the current flight mode, so that, for example, the inverted V symbol is used when ILS is enabled.

[drtedastro]

WOW, that is great. I will go back and re-read the posts, as I must have missed the one from Helldiver you just mentioned. This will truly be one of the most in-depth mods that has been created. Very, Very impressive. I hope that I will be able to fly it as good as it looks.

Well, that wont happen, I will crash it, but will keep trying.

thanks for reply(s), info and great work..