Getting to Eve with a Rover

[Latias4Ever]

The title is pretty self-explanatory, I've tried several rockets to get to Eve, but I can't even get an orbit around Kerbin, I've tried with lots of solid fuel rockets with lots of struts, wings, etc, but it either falls apart, or it goes so slow it doesn't get over 30 km above Kerbin. Here's a couple pictures of the Rover itself, and my last attempt at the rocket so far:

I am pretty sure the part above the Rover is good enough to land it safely on the surface, so all I need is help on the part below it, maybe I made it too big and heavy? Any advice will be really appreciated.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Latias4Ever

[Dombi]

Here's a couple of tips

1- forget about solid rocket boosters. when you master most of the games engines you will know when to use them

2- learn all you can about asparagus staging and abuse of it. I personally don't use it anymore because it's unrealistic and non creative. But it has helped me alot dealing with the frustations of interplanetary travel

3- also you can use a fuel depot on orbit to refuel a big fuel tank for interplanetary travel

[Jackissimus]

Here's a couple of tips

1- forget about solid rocket boosters. when you master most of the games engines you will know when to use them

2- learn all you can about asparagus staging and abuse of it. I personally don't use it anymore because it's unrealistic and non creative. But it has helped me alot dealing with the frustations of interplanetary travel

3- also you can use a fuel depot on orbit to refuel a big fuel tank for interplanetary travel

So when do you use SRBs?

Also, how is asparagus noncreative?

[spacetortoise1]

Use nuclear engines! They are insanely efficient and effective for interplanetary travel.

[Affan]

I agree with Dombi. Definitely place a space station core or a (smaller core self-made but still with many docking ports) and send up fuel modules and dock as many as you can there. all parts you use do allow fuel cross-feed so the fuel doesn't have to be directly connected. Finally, once you have enough to perform a manoeuvre to eve then send up your craft and I would recommend a few atomic rocket motors. They are insanely efficient and will get you there with fuel left to perform other manoeuvres.

Alternatively, you could try to assemble the craft in orbit by sending up bits of the craft and then dock them all together.

(first post )

[Latias4Ever]

Unfortunately, Dombi and Affan, I have NO experience with stuff such as space stations or docking or anything... Don't know how to build them, although I would like to learn it soon... Right now I want to get to Eve in one go, and the wiki says that I need either a large ship, or stations to refuel at, and I went with the former.

Spacetortoise1, are you sure they work on Kerbin? Or do I use them when I'm out of the atmosphere?

[metaphor]

No docking needed. That ship looks like it has plenty of fuel to get to Eve or to any other planet.

Two problems I see with it: one is the SRBs are too high up, and don't work that well as a second stage, so get rid of those (I would get rid of both of them).

Second problem is the stack is too heavy for the single mainsail engine on the bottom. Replace the two orange tanks with a single orange tank (maybe add a small white tank on the bottom to prevent overheating), then add two orange tanks with mainsails on the sides with decouplers (again with small white tanks on the bottom to prevent overheating). Put fuel lines from the side tanks into the center tank, and add struts liberally. If you still don't have enough to get to orbit, add some more white tanks for the mainsail engines on the sides, not the center one. If the engine in the next stage after the mainsail is not a Skipper, make it a Skipper. I would also put fins on the bottom of the craft rather than the top for better stabilization.

Hope that helps.

[rodion]

That launch vehicle design is way too complex and large just for depositing a small payload on a relatively close planet like Eve.

I landed a rover on Eve with comparable mass and complexity to yours using a launch vehicle that probably wasn't much in excess of 40 parts without payload. I can't remember the exact launch vehicle I used, but I'd bet it looked something like this:

Also, are those radial engines mounted above the payload part of a skycrane? You can easily delete that and replace it with just a couple of parachutes; the extreme atmospheric density of Eve enables parachutes to slow any small or medium-sized payload down to soft landing speed easily without retro burning, despite its high surface gravity.

[Latias4Ever]

Thanks for the tips, metaphor, the three tanks get me to over 10 km, but once I get there, the ship starts going crazy, tilting to random sides, rolling around, while I try to tilt east, it doesn't help much when the fuel runs out either, the whole ship separates itself somehow through the nuclear engine, not even the decoupler above the 3 tanks activates... Who thought getting a ship even to orbit would be so tough?

EDIT: Only saw your post after posting mine, Rodion, and I was thinking about using those engines to get closer to Eve and enter the atmosphere if the other tanks ran out, and I was also thinking about using this design to get another Rover to Mun, if it was possible.

Here's a picture of how the ship is so far:

Edited July 27, 2013 by Latias4Ever

[UbioZur]

I do have a few question:

- can you at least get to orbit with a simple rocket?

- Have tried doing a transfer to the mun (no landing necessary, just transfer, orbit and back)?

this is just to make sure you do know how to get to orbit and transfer to another celestial body. else you may be hitting a objective that is far from your current skills, and it would be better to at least know how to do them before going to another planet.

for your rocker on your last post.

- remove all the struts

- make sure you have a fuel line going from the outsides tanks (preferably the small grey ones) to the inside one. So the outside tanks drain their fuel first and then you have the inside one full to keep going.

- You will need to separate the radial decoupler to another stage (that will be the new stage 5)

- You don't need the delta wing, remove then, you can add canard however.

- make sure you center of mass and center of thrust are align (buttons at the bottom left (mass on the left and thrust on the right)

- now for the struts:

. struts the outside tank to the inside one, at the button (one strut each) so the engine don't move the tank.

. same thing but at the top to make sure it good.

. outside tanks to the middle grey tanks. one strut is enough.

. struc the tank over the nerva to the decoupler at the under the nerva. also use a smaller decoupler (you will gain weight and not loose anything)

. I see a command module and advance stabilizer at the top, not neccessary to have both. the command pod will offer you sas since .21

and just as a note, I would add a small battery or two on the rover to make sure it won't run out of power during night time.

[metaphor]

What UbioZur said.

Check your staging. You want fuel lines from the two outer tanks to the inner tank so that the 3 engines will all burn the fuel from the outer tanks. Then when the two side tanks run out, the two side engines will stop burning, and that's when you should decouple the side tanks. The inner engine will still be burning after that.

Don't use wings, use winglets on the bottom since they can move during flight. Wings can't move.

And add struts between the fuel tanks on the top and bottom of the nuclear engine. That thing is pretty shaky.

[Latias4Ever]

My very first rocket managed to get to orbit easily, it's still going with Jeb inside, and no, I haven't done a transfer to the Mun, but I've landed on it with Bill, Bob and a random Kerbal, so I know how to get to orbit. I'm not planning on returning from Eve here, I want to land and keep my Rover there.

I've followed every step, the center of thrust and center of mass seem aligned, the center of thrust is at the very bottom of the ship though, but I've changed the ship as instructed, here's a picture of how it is right now:

EDIT: Went for a test drive, and it's having the same problems, the camera moves up to the Rover for some reason, and I lose all control over the rocket, the decouplers don't work either... What happens exactly when I try to decouple the first two tanks? This:

How do I make the three engines the outer tanks though? I don't know how to set the staging to do that, only using the two outer engines, then start the middle one. I'd like to know how to fix the issue on the picture though, do I add struts? Or is there some problem with the decouplers?

EDIT: Yeah, struts fixed the problem and now I managed to decouple the outer tanks, but I still can't get orbit, I'm probably doing something wrong here...

Edited July 28, 2013 by Latias4Ever

[metaphor]

Do you have the yellow fuel lines going from the outer tanks to the inner one? It's the last item on the second page of the propulsion tab, you put it on like a strut: click on it, then click on one of the outer tanks, then click on the inner tank (not the other way or your fuel will be going in reverse).

Your staging should look like this:

first stage - fire all three engines

2nd stage - decouple the two outer tanks

3rd stage - decouple the inner tank

...

Fire the first stage at launch, fire the second stage when the two side engines run out, fire the third stage when the middle engine runs out.

If you still don't have the fuel to get to orbit, add some more white fuel tanks on top of the side orange tanks, so the side engines have more fuel.

Edited July 28, 2013 by metaphor

[milankragujevic]

Could you please show me the resources display when you loose control. Are you sure that you aren't without power? Since power is required for "magic torque" in >0.21

Also, if you don't want to try with mechjeb, get one of the Zenith rockets, preferably one with 30 tonnes max (second one). It will surely get you to LKO, since I did Duna transfers with the Zenith 2

Edited July 28, 2013 by milankragujevic

[Latias4Ever]

Metaphor: Yup, I found them, and just did another test drive, and it's a success! Perfect orbit around Kerbin, and growing! The nuclear engine is running and it's pretty much full after about 5 minutes of usage! Now I just need to set a maneuver to get to Eve easily, the nuclear engine should last long enough to get there! Thanks for the help.

Milank: I'll try using this rocket to get to the Mun again some other time, when I do it, and if I get out of control, I'll try and get the display for you.

[DMagic]

When you lose control and the camera moves up that means your lower stages are breaking off from the rest of your rocket. The camera is focused on the center of mass, so it moves up as you drop the lower stages. But when you get a sudden shift like that, it means something failed, even though the rocket may still look like it's attached.

The reason this is happening is that you have too much thrust and your rocket is top heavy. It would probably be better to replace those two radial booster engines with skippers. If you can get off the launch pad then you should have plenty of thrust.

You should also try putting a smaller tank above the nuclear rocket. It's doubtful that you would need that much fuel just to get to Eve, and that big tank makes your rocket very top heavy. I would also put some struts between the tank below the nuclear engine and the tank above it.

You also have some odd placement of the winglets on the bottom. Instead of attaching two to each outer tank, attach four to the central tank. And those look like they might be the Delta-Deluxe Winglets, don't use those, they are terrible for controlling rockets. Use the AV-R8 winglets.

Edited July 28, 2013 by DMagic

[Nzen]

Consider building up to an Eve mission. Let the Mun be your practice round.

Build your rocket. I suggest trying out the rover right on top of the system that Rodion suggested. See how much fuel you have when you get to orbit, when you reach the Mun. Do you have enough to get back? Try.

With that mission under your belt, then you can decide how much extra you need to add to that system. To the the system that inspired the one I use, I suggest watching HOCgaming's

. (He & Scott Manly have lots of good tutorials.) He provides an example of the asparagus staging others have mentioned.

As far as struts go, usually one at each point of the object will be more than sufficient. Most justifications, unfortunately, are math heavy because the discusion about "static forces" are oriented toward engineers.

someone coloring objects under stress to reveal how the force moves. (Skip to 0:50) Essentially, the strut on the top will generally be under tension and the strut on the bottom will be under compression. The rest will not really add any support beyond that.

You can change staging by clicking on an icon in a stage panel, letting it highlight, and then click-dragging it to the stage panel it belongs in. Panels are added or deleted by pushing the + or - that show up when a panel is clicked. Panels can be dragged without clicking beforehand.

Perhaps you've seen the injunction to turn at 10,000 meters? More specifically, your goal is to keep directly skyward until ~10,000m, shedding spent stages. Then turn your craft so the navball wings are over 90 degrees. This is east, and the direction that Kerbin spins. Imagine its gravity/rotation like a whirlpool, going in the other directions - especially west, 180 - wastes more fuel. At this point, switch to map view. When your AP tag shows ~67,000m when you mouseover it, then finally turn your navball wings to meet the line separating sky from ground on the 90 line. Keep burning until, in map view, your PE tag comes out of the planet and reads 70,000 or more. Make sure to watch your staging when in map view, as it doesn't warn you about fuel levels. Orbit achieved.

If you are going to the Mun, as the Training scenario said, create a maneuver node on a line connecting Kerbin & the Mun. Increase the thrust on the maneuver node until it intersects with the munar orbit, whereupon you should get an encounter. The task is harder for Eve depending upon its angle to Kerbin. Further, its orbit is inclined 2 degrees more than kerbin's. Adopt the same, before setting out. (Minmus is good practice for this. It has a 6 degree inclination.)

I've recently been setting the celestial body as my target and then playing with the maneuver node until it reports a closest approach. It's worth knowing the period of the body to approximate where Eve will be at various times. It has a year lasting about 65 days. So, if it takes you 30 days to get to intersect with its orbit, expect Eve to be at the opposite end of its orbit from when you started. Anyway, when you get a close approach, just fiddle with the maneuver node until it is as close as you can make it. If need be, execute the maneuver and then correct your path about midway.

What you do when you've arrived depends on how much fuel & craft you have then. You can let Eve's atmosphere slow you down by dipping at least as far down as 70,000m. If you just have the rover, you can dip even farther and still not have to arrest your horizontal velocity. Burn what you have left, cut the chutes. Mission Accomplished.

[metaphor]

It actually takes less delta-v to land on Eve than it does to go into low Mun orbit, since you can use Eve's atmosphere to slow down and land. The hard part is figuring out when to do the transfer burn from Kerbin orbit. This website is useful for that.

[annallia]

If you are not opposed to re-building your rocket again you could copy my Duna-1. Was one of my earlier rockets before I knew I could get tanks to stay put without anything in between them (note I do use quantum struts in this). Not sure how much your lander weighs but the last two stages of this (drops fuel tanks after breaking in atmo) weighs just under 30 tons so if it should have more than enough lift to get yours into orbit if it comes in under that.

It isn't a true asparagus stage rocket in that all 4 of the external tanks drop at the same time but it does reach 100km orbit with a little fuel to spare. From there you just separate and use the nuclear engines to set you on course for eve, use what little fuel is left to do a breaking burn on eve and then drop the tanks/deploy chutes.

I know it's named Duna-1 but that is only because it was designed for Duna, it has since been sent ahead of every mission to anywhere with an atmosphere as my life support module, and has been retrofitted several times for rovers and other landers.

[Dombi]

So when do you use SRBs?

Also, how is asparagus noncreative?

You use SRB on designs that aren't so heavy so they can have maximum effect mainly in launching the payload into the 10km barrier. But as far as I'm concerned alot of people don't ever use SRB.

How is asparagus noncreative? How is asparagus creative? You have this design that you copied from a tutorial and that fits each of your launches so you never have to rethink a design again. It's fully functional I give you that... But nothing more.

[Latias4Ever]

Again, thanks everyone for the advice, DMagic, I know that the fuel is maybe too much, but since I'm such a beginner, I think it may not be enough even with a nuclear engine that's as efficient as this. I put struts on the decoupler and the tank above the nuclear engine, and it didn't break off now, so it's all good.

Nzen, I read your instructions, and it's pretty much what I do to get into orbit, and the tutorial was what helped me getting into orbit with my very first rocket, playing with the maneuver node is something I want to avoid, as I have no experience with what the maneuvers can do, and I want to try and do everything perfectly.

I managed to get myself in orbit with Kerbol (the Sun), now all I need to do is make a maneuver to get to Eve, but right now I'm not being able to get one, I have enough fuel to last... Over 40 minutes, if I had to guess at the very least, but I have no idea what I should do, I've already tried to make an orbit exactly the same as Eve's, but I don't know if that would have worked, so I loaded the quicksave and got back to the original orbit around Kerbol. Here's a picture of the orbit so far:

Maybe someone can help me? Maybe tell me when the maneuver should be made, or how it should be shaped?

Edited July 28, 2013 by Latias4Ever

[hjmott]

dont use too many solid boosters at the top. the rocket should be a pyramid, not a cylinder. Getting into orbit isnt that difficult with asparagus staging. Nuclear engines can get you out of kerbin orbit and into an eve intersect, and paracutes will be more than effective. eve is the only place you can land where mk.25 chutes are actually valuable.make sure you have a few chutes, the atmosphere is very thick, so it could rip them off. if you plan on returning, use jet engines to lift off. the atmosphere is so thick, they will work extremely well.

[kookoo_gr]

To get to Eve.

1. at the map view click once on eve and press set as target

2. at your orbit you will see to extra yellow triangles. These show the plane difference from your target in degrees once you hover over them.

3. place a maneuver at the closest yellow triangle and start adjusting the purple triangles on the maneuver node. These adjust the plane of the ship. try to get as close as 0 degrees.

4. Once set you will see the needed for the burn. Start burning at half the time before you reach the node. Tip: if you load the game and make the adjustment the burn time will N/A, make a full burn for 1sec and cut throttle, this will reset the burn timer and make your adjustment.

5. After the plane adjustment place another node at another point in your orbit then adjust the yellow circles, these will increase decrease your orbit at the opposite part of your ship's orbit. At some point you will see two whit triangles. You must make these triangles to connect. Once connected they will turn into purple/orange circles and then you have an encounter. If you can't get an encounter at a point in out orbit try another point. or move the maneuver node by clicking the inner grey circle of the maneuver node and move it around, then adjust the orbit.

6. Once you get an encounter you can see the periapsis you will have at Eve by hovering over the purple/orange triangles at the encounter. Most likely your eve periapsis will be by millions of km. You can decrease it by adjusting the the various options at the maneuver node. Careful a little adjustment can even mess the whole encounter so be very careful when adjusting it. Aim for a periapsis below 1000 km, i usually go for near 100km since eve's atmosphere begins at 90km

7. make the burn at half the time before the node.

[Latias4Ever]

I managed to get an encounter with Eve, but I'm starting to think that the fuel isn't enough to get a periapsis close to it... I guess I wasted too much, and may have to try and launch again... Shame. Thanks for the advice though, kookoo, that's what got me an encounter with it.

EDIT: Nope, the fuel is not enough... The radial engines makes the periapsis low enough, but with the apoapsis so high, it's impossible to land...

EDIT 2: Well... I think I made a perfect landing... On water... Gaaah! Good thing though, the Rover and parts above it remained perfectly intact.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Latias4Ever

[metaphor]

If you already have an encounter with Eve, it's really easy to go straight to it. Make a maneuver node and change just the blue and purple directions to get the periapsis lower until it shows no periapsis (which means you're gonna get an impact). Then execute the node, it should only be a few tens of m/s at most if you do it early enough. It's like throwing a dart at a target, you can change the direction you're throwing in by small changes up-down and left-right until you hit a bulls-eye.

If you just want to land on Eve, you don't need to have an orbit around it first, just go straight into it and let the atmosphere slow you down.