[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[Northstar1989]

@FractalUK

I know you're busy, but there are several key reactions missing that could easily be implemented with the current In-Situ Resource Utilization resource system solely with already-defined resources, in particular the Haber-Bosch Process (Ammonia synthesis: N2 + 3 H2 → 2 NH3), the Reverse Water Gas Shift Reaction (CO2 + H2 + Energy --> CO + H2O , just ignore the CO part as it would presumably be released back into the atmosphere), and the gas-based version of the Anthraquinone Process (H2 + O2 → H2O2 , there's absolutely no need for players to have access to LiquidWater to make Hydrogen Peroxide...)

As I suggested before, take a look at my thread on In-Situ Resource Utilization if you want more details:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68797-In-Situ-Resource-Utilization-Useful-Reactions

Regards,

Northstar

Edited February 9, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

@FractalUK

My reasoning:

Adding these reactions would fill a lot of annoying/problematic gaps in the current system- such as the inability to manufacture Monopropellant on Duna due to the lack of readily-available Ammonia (despite the availability on Duna of both gaseous Nitrogen, and, with some water-electrolysis, Hydrogen), the inability to make Hydrogen Peroxide from Hydrogen scooped from Jool and Oxygen gathered on Laythe (or for that matter LiquidWater- via controlled combustion of the two, perhaps *producing* usable electricity as an intended byproduct) or the inability to make enough Oxidizer to burn all our LiquidMethane made using the Sabatier Reaction.

As you bounced back before, there are multiple ways to solve that last particular issue. Methane Pyrolysis followed by (implied- not shown) oxidation of the resultant graphene and re-cycling the recovered hydrogen through the Sabatier again to make more Water for electrolysis is one solution, and probably should also be an option- but it's annoying and much more energy-inefficient to perform that additional pair of reactions rather than simply performing the Reverse Water Gas Shift (RWGS) Reaction- which yields just the desired Water without any of the unneeded Methane... (and thus is also more useful for life-support systems)

Real-world ISRU proposals actually frequently suggest utilizing two parallel reactors that perform both the Sabatier and RWGS reactions simultaneously off the output of a single electrical powerplant (usually nuclear), which would probably also be the optimal strategy in KSP- assuming the reaction rates could be properly balanced/calibrated (reactor calibration is *NOT* a feature I'm suggesting/asking for anytime soon, or ever, mind you).

I, and another player even earlier also pointed out- the current reaction for Hydrazine (Monopropellant) synthesis also needs to be fixed- as currently implemented it consumes *FAR* more ammonia per liter of Hydrazine produced than the actual net equation for Hydrazine synthesis (2 H2O2 + 4 NH3 --> 4 H2O + 2 N2H4). It also doesn't produce enough LiquidWater...

I don't mean to be annoying- I think KSP-Interstellar is a *GREAT* mod, and you really hit on something by including ISRU in it. I just want to see the In-Situ Resource Utilization system be all it can be, and be accurate (in terms of the ratios of products and reactants required- which should follow the actual stoichiometric ratios).

Regards,

Northstar

Edited February 9, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Fractal_UK]

Northstar, I've responded to some of these already but let me summarise:

1) Inclusion of the haber process is a planned feature and will appear soon, likewise Methane pyrolysis is planned at some point in order to permit closed loop reactions useful alongside life support mods.

2) There are a lot of similar options for slightly different inputs for different processes but the refinery is already a bit ridiculous in terms of the number of options and a better solution needs to be found before lots more options can be added. It is possible that until then I'll fix the reaction rate by including RWGS alongside the sabatier reaction.

3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with the input rates for ammonia and hydrogen peroxide in the hydrazine production process, once you convert from litres to mass units, you will see that they are correct. If you haven't updated to 0.10.3, you may be seeing the wrong rate as there was previously a problem related to the handling of time warp rates. The only actual problem is the lack of water production, which will be fixed in the next version.

[DrinkV0dka]

I don't know if this has been answered but i do not have the time to go through 500+ pages. I cannot load my ksp. Checking task manager and lowering texture quality does nothing, so its not related to ram. When loading into ram always stops at /spaces/sci/model. Game does not crash but does not load any further.

[Jasmir]

No, if I did this by default I'd have to provide a WasteWater resource definition, which is fine for anyone without TAC but those with it would have two definitions of the same resource and that is not safe.

I understand, that is a problem. Is there a chance to get around this resourcedefinition-racecondition issue? I think, this "every mod has it's unique but equal resources" is a problem. Mods can't interact to each other _or_ has very fixed dependencies _if_ they do.

Most of the resources in Interstellar that can overlap with other mods are defined in the WarpPluginSettings.cfg file, if you edit the name in there along with the all the RESOURCE{} nodes but not the RESOURCE_DEFINITION{} node, you can make any of the resources compatible with other mods.

I've found the RESOURCE_DEFINITION{}-nodes, but in which file are the RESOURCE{}-nodes you mean?

If you want integration with TAC, look up KESA resource integration on the forum, it has all the module manager definitions to integrate Interstellar and TAC.

I don't think, that getting a 3rd, specialized "mod" to integrate the _same_ resource of 2 other mods is a good (or even acceptable) way. I've 30 mods running (ok, the very most of them has no own resources), so it would be a real dependency-hell if the "integration by specialized 3rd party mods" would be the way to go.

[NeoAcario]

I found a sweet spot on Minmus

That's all well and good.. but that's a horrible hill... gonna be hard for ships to come down for fuel on that kind of slope. I choose my locations for several reasons. Not just the UF4 abundance. It doesn't take much to keep your gens running.

~Steve

[SirusKing]

Do the poles on Duna give ice that can be electrolysed?

[NeoAcario]

Do the poles on Duna give ice that can be electrolysed?

Actually I isn't there trace water in all of the soil of Duna? I forget.

~Steve

[DaveStrider]

Is there a list somewhere that shows which planets have which resources? I'm planning my base for eeloo and i'd like to know which resource tanks to strap onto it.

[SirusKing]

Seeing as the entire planet is snowy/icey, its likely that you can at least get water (and thus LFO) from it.

[SirusKing]

Is there a list somewhere that shows which planets have which resources? I'm planning my base for eeloo and i'd like to know which resource tanks to strap onto it.

Seeing as the entire planet is snowy/icey, its likely that you can at least get water (and thus Lfuel) from it.

[simmy2109]

This mod is awesome... When you step back and look at it, the scope is massive. ISRU, entirely new means of propulsion, incredibly complex nuclear power system, countless new resources... I really don't think any other mod attempts to tackle so many things at once. I actually can't think of an area of KSP that interstellar doesn't directly affect. On top of that, very serious discussion and thought has gone into making these systems as realistic as possible (down to ensuring that the stoichiometric ratios are correct). Great job on this Fractal. It is going to take me a long time to fully explore this thing!

[enneract]

Is there any chance of getting a wider variety of attachment nodes for infrared telescope? Ideally the ability to mount it like one of the RT2 dishes, parallel to the mounting point, rather than perpendicular? Something that isn't so gross to try to fit inside a fairing?

[SirusKing]

It would be SO much nicer if it was radial, possible even with the folding system (like the Communotron 88-88)

[Tschib]

Appreciatiation post;

ive been using interstellar for quite a while now and cant imagine ksp without; three hoorays!

[Lightwarrior]

Finaly tested impactors on Eeloo and... absolutely insane amount of science:

And after 3 more impacts it was ~10k science total. Noticed no problems with how impactors work, but is not it too much science from just single experiment?

Also it required ~5 minutes to transfer, and such long transfer will probably fail (run out of power) if you have no reactor/microwave receiver on transmitting vessel.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Lightwarrior

[Rizendell]

Finaly tested impactors on Eeloo and... absolutely insane amount of science:

http://i.imgur.com/6wGN3fL.jpg

And after 3 more impacts it was ~10k science total. Noticed no problems with how impactors work, but is not it too much science from just single experiment?

Also it required ~5 minutes to transfer, and such long transfer will probably fail (run out of power) if you have no reactor/microwave receiver on transmitting vessel.

This is what I was talking about regarding balance and overwriting the default experiment. Fine if you want to have your own experiment for the mod's additional nodes. Not cool when you get access to science experiments like this as soon as you unlock the accelerometer.

Additonally, you stated that the science lab would only produce about 5 science per year in optimal locations, but I quote your own table from the wiki:

Approximate Science per day near Optimal Height

•Kerbin - 0.017

•Moho - 3

•Jool - 1.2

Landing a lab on the surface of a celestial body will also grant an increased science rate.

The following science multipliers apply:

•Duna, Eve, Ike, Gilly: 5

•Mun, Minmus: 2.5

•Jool, Tylo, Pol, Bop: 10

•Laythe, Vall: 12

•Eloo, Moho: 20

•Dres: 7.5

•Kerbin: 1

•Kerbol (Sun): 15

The landing multiplier is 3 for Tylo, 2.5 for Eve and 2 for everything else.

So if you land just a single lab on Moho, you get about 20 science/day x 2 for the landing multiplier? = 40 science/day (check my math). Not to mention the fact that people like me are going to send about 10 labs at a time to any given planet. Thus ruining any sort of balance you had hoped to achieve by providing the part at low level in the tech tree.

Also, Can we please have an answer regarding the Power Supply/Demand limitation? Lots of people are asking about this because there is a PROBLEM with the current system, and it seems like it has gone unanswered now for many pages.

Additonally, My request about an articulating arm for the microwave reciever orientation still stands. I asked if you were planning on or willing to do it on your own (since its your mod, and I think you should take the glory), but if you are not, Do you just need help doing it? Do you not like the idea? I need an answer either way. If you dont want it, Ill just make one for myself. If you do want one and are accepting, I would be willing to help you with a more polished version if you want it.

[db48x]

This is what I was talking about regarding balance and overwriting the default experiment. Fine if you want to have your own experiment for the mod's additional nodes. Not cool when you get access to science experiments like this as soon as you unlock the accelerometer.

Actually, I think the complaint was about losing science by not being able to do the original experiments...

Additonally, you stated that the science lab would only produce about 5 science per year in optimal locations, but I quote your own table from the wiki:

So if you land just a single lab on Moho, you get about 20 science/day x 2 for the landing multiplier? = 40 science/day (check my math). Not to mention the fact that people like me are going to send about 10 labs at a time to any given planet. Thus ruining any sort of balance you had hoped to achieve by providing the part at low level in the tech tree.

If it's a problem for you, then install a life support mod and ship them air, water and food regularly.

Additonally, My request about an articulating arm for the microwave reciever orientation still stands. I asked if you were planning on or willing to do it on your own (since its your mod, and I think you should take the glory), but if you are not, Do you just need help doing it? Do you not like the idea? I need an answer either way. If you dont want it, Ill just make one for myself. If you do want one and are accepting, I would be willing to help you with a more polished version if you want it.

I recommend Infernal Robotics. It's got quite a wide variety of mechanisms. Hinges, telescoping rods, rotors; everything you could want is in there.

[JeffreyCor]

LAZOR also has 2 optional arms built and ready to install.

[Lightwarrior]

Actually i just edited tree.cfg to multiply all node costs by 4. It made things far more interesting and balanced. Without it all tree can be unlocked without living kerbin system, just on mun and minmus, even without labs and impactors. This seems like stock problem either than interstellar.

Also yes, using life support mod makes things a bit harder with labs, you need to be carefull, or you will force yourself to deliver supplies constantly instead of doing something less routine.

As for impactors... they are still much more challenging than stock experiments, i had to deploy 8 different crafts in orbit/on surface of eeloo (2 power relays, 4 probes with accelerometers, manned lander, and mothership which is also transmitting power for probes/lander) and bring something i can crash into surface multiple times. And then i will need to dock all this things back together... This is much more fun than just landing, clicking few buttons and returning to kerbin.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Lightwarrior

[Fractal_UK]

Finaly tested impactors on Eeloo and... absolutely insane amount of science:

And after 3 more impacts it was ~10k science total. Noticed no problems with how impactors work, but is not it too much science from just single experiment?

Also it required ~5 minutes to transfer, and such long transfer will probably fail (run out of power) if you have no reactor/microwave receiver on transmitting vessel.

Yeah, that's probably a touch high so some of the outer planets may need to be revised downward a bit. That said, you did hit the cap of maximum science possible for a single Eeloo impact there, which implies you got your accelerometer placement down pretty well.

Edit: I don't want to cut out too much of the science though because that mission isn't all that easy. You need do need several Eeloo landers, plus the impactors so it's a fair bit more difficult than a stock mission there.

Additonally, you stated that the science lab would only produce about 5 science per year in optimal locations, but I quote your own table from the wiki:

So if you land just a single lab on Moho, you get about 20 science/day x 2 for the landing multiplier? = 40 science/day (check my math). Not to mention the fact that people like me are going to send about 10 labs at a time to any given planet. Thus ruining any sort of balance you had hoped to achieve by providing the part at low level in the tech tree.

No, the base amount is 0.1 science/day, so by landing on Moho, you get 4 science/day, not 40. In theory, you can get 6/day by using 2 zero stupidity Kerbals in the lab.

Also, Can we please have an answer regarding the Power Supply/Demand limitation? Lots of people are asking about this because there is a PROBLEM with the current system, and it seems like it has gone unanswered now for many pages.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Which power supply/demand?

Additonally, My request about an articulating arm for the microwave reciever orientation still stands. I asked if you were planning on or willing to do it on your own (since its your mod, and I think you should take the glory), but if you are not, Do you just need help doing it? Do you not like the idea? I need an answer either way. If you dont want it, Ill just make one for myself. If you do want one and are accepting, I would be willing to help you with a more polished version if you want it.

If you want to try and create such a thing, go right ahead, it's certainly beyond my modelling abilities.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Fractal_UK

[cttw]

Hi Fractal_UK, awesome mod!

Would you mind releasing the fix you described in this post:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/43839-0-23-KSP-Interstellar-%28Thermal-Helper-Solar-Sail-Impactors-Fusion%29-Version-0-10-3?p=956725&viewfull=1#post956725

[Donziboy2]

That's all well and good.. but that's a horrible hill... gonna be hard for ships to come down for fuel on that kind of slope. I choose my locations for several reasons. Not just the UF4 abundance. It doesn't take much to keep your gens running.

~Steve

That's mostly the angle of my camera's fault and Minmus has very little gravity so you can land on some crazy angles.

[Umlüx]

sorry but i have to ask some noob questions.. seems i am not able to find the answers reading back or the wiki on my own...

how do you scan for water? until now i used common sense (minmus flats, duna poles...) but is there a way to actively scan for hotspots?

and how do you get ammonia? is it mineable or a byproduct of some other process? or do you simply have to bring it along?

thanks!

[NeoAcario]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Which power supply/demand?

I think he's talking about a couple issues we raised a few pages back with regards to the ISU, Tritium decay, etc. Can't decay tritium into HE3 in the backround, the ISRU doesn't stop functions when capacity is full... like when doing the UF4+Ammonia process. Small house keeping things for you to fix that are by no means urgent.

EDIT: Ok, I'm an idiot.. Power. Perhaps he's talking about the other issue we raised a few pages back about possibly adding a tweakable for Microwave devices so we can reduce how much we receive?

sorry but i have to ask some noob questions.. seems i am not able to find the answers reading back or the wiki on my own...

how do you scan for water? until now i used common sense (minmus flats, duna poles...) but is there a way to actively scan for hotspots?

and how do you get ammonia? is it mineable or a byproduct of some other process? or do you simply have to bring it along?

thanks!

1. Fractal is working on a mundane resource detector for a future patch. (water is also in Mun north pole craters below 3k alt)

2. I'm not 100% on all of the Ammonia sources either, but I'm pretty sure you can get some from Laythe water? Probably also Eve. Atmo or 'water'.

~Steve

Edited February 10, 2014 by NeoAcario