[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[AndreyATGB]

IIRC this version of KSPI can't produce MW for local use from solar power and AM tanks use MW not ElectricCharge. So basically you need a power source from this mod.

[WaveFunctionP]

WaveFunctionP, do you have a list of differences between your version and the official one?

It's in the changelog on my version. Located in the warpplugin directory.

[brusura]

IIRC this version of KSPI can't produce MW for local use from solar power and AM tanks use MW not ElectricCharge. So basically you need a power source from this mod.

But the 1,25 AM container works with the GigaXL and electric charge , when it start to fill and require more than 36 EC per seconds or 36 Kw ( max output of 2x GigaXL is 36 EC ) then blow up

[phoenix_ca]

I vaguely recall someone mentioning that antimatter from collectors wasn't using ALL_VESSEL logic. The same logic that drives Monopropellent in stock KSP.

[ctbram]

Okay my brain has officially blown a gasket!!!!

Still not working!!!! Here is what I have done. I copied my game. removed IR. which had no affect on the problem.

So then I took my ship build that has the fusion reactor that stays running when I switch away and come back. I stripped that down to nothing but the reactor, generator, 6x radiators, battery, and computer core and stuck two fuel tanks at the bottom so the radiators don't hit the ground. I put that on the pad start the reactor switch away and come back and the reactor is still running!!!!!!!!

Now I build EXACTLY THE SAME THING WITH THE EXACT SAME 12 PARTS!!!!! - reactor, generator, 6x radiators, battery, and computer core sitting on top of two fuel tanks. I put that on the pad and start the reactor switch away and come back and the reactor is shutdown offline!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the two .craft files can someone please look at them and confirm the behavior and tell me if they see a difference that would explain what the bloody heck is going on?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5501128/ksp_fusionReactorBug/FRTB%20fresh%20built%20version.craft

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5501128/ksp_fusionReactorBug/FRTB%20Stripped%20Version%20ktec.craft

I created a brand new fresh vanilla game and installed ONLY interstellar and then I started a new sand box game and copied the two craft files above. I then loaded the stripped one and launched it on the pad I activated the reactor switched away (esc to space center then clicked to go back to the pad) and the reactor was still running.

Then I went back to the VAB and loaded the fresh built one with the EXACT SAME BLOODY PARTS and launched it, activated the reactor, switched away as above, came back and the bloody reactor is OFFLINE!!!!!

For the love of god can someone please look at those craft files and tell me what the bloody hell is going on! It's making me lose my mind!!!!!!

Edited May 4, 2014 by ctbram

[phoenix_ca]

You, sir, seem to have a wildly insane bug on your hands. Or some unexpected behaviour.

[ctbram]

You, sir, seem to have a wildly insane bug on your hands. Or some unexpected behaviour.

No kidding! This is literally driving me nuts! I keep my steam version of the game unmodified so I just copy that folder to a new one and installed the interstellar 0.11 mod to the new one. Started a sand box game so I would have access to the parts. then copied the .craft files from my link above. One is just the 12 parts ripped off of one of my two builds that have been working fine for weeks. The other is a fresh build I made using the exact same 12 parts. You put the stripped down version on the pad and start the reactor go away and come back and the reactor is still running. You put the fresh built one on the pad start the reactor go away come back and the reactor is offline.

[chlue]

No kidding! This is literally driving me nuts! I keep my steam version of the game unmodified so I just copy that folder to a new one and installed the interstellar 0.11 mod to the new one. Started a sand box game so I would have access to the parts. then copied the .craft files from my link above. One is just the 12 parts ripped off of one of my two builds that have been working fine for weeks. The other is a fresh build I made using the exact same 12 parts. You put the stripped down version on the pad and start the reactor go away and come back and the reactor is still running. You put the fresh built one on the pad start the reactor go away come back and the reactor is offline.

Ok I could somewhat reproduce your problem. I see two problems with your design:

- One battery does not seem to be enough to reliable start the reactor. The game always started with reactor offline for me, but it was running as expected when I added more batteries. Not sure why the battery is not empty trough

- In your 'FRTB fresh built version.craft' the root part is a fuel tank. I had the feeling if I rebuild the craft such that the computer core is the root part it works more reliable.

Ok I see two problems.

[artforz]

For the love of god can someone please look at those craft files and tell me what the bloody hell is going on! It's making me lose my mind!!!!!!

You're not going crazy, I can reproduce it here.

Take the fresh built version, stick the generator *below* the reactor. Magically works.

Alternatively, add another 4k battery bank. Also works.

What's going on here is different part OnStart/OnFixedUpdate order (added a bunch of debug prints to tell WTF is going on):

fresh built:

[LOG 14:49:22.778] Reactor OnStart

[LOG 14:49:22.780] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (ThermalPower)

[LOG 14:49:22.780] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (WasteHeat)

[LOG 14:49:22.780] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (ChargedParticles)

[LOG 14:49:22.782] Warning: Fusion Reactor MJ deprived, consuming 3693.79996626526 ElectricCharge

[LOG 14:49:22.813] Generator OnStart

[LOG 14:49:22.813] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (Megajoules)

[LOG 14:49:22.814] [KSP Interstellar] Configuring Generator

[LOG 14:49:22.815] [KSP Interstellar] Radiation Module Loaded.

[LOG 14:49:23.156] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:49:23.160] Warning: Fusion Reactor MJ deprived, consuming 3693.79996626526 ElectricCharge <- completely depletes ElectricCharge here

[LOG 14:49:23.160] Warning: Fusion Reactor power deprived

[LOG 14:49:23.161] Warning: Reactor resource deprived, shutting down

[LOG 14:49:23.162] Generator OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:49:23.330] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:49:23.331] Generator OnFixedUpdate

...

stripped version:

[LOG 14:52:31.396] [KSP Interstellar] Radiation Module Loaded.

[LOG 14:52:31.425] Generator OnStart

[LOG 14:52:31.425] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (Megajoules)

[LOG 14:52:31.425] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (WasteHeat)

[LOG 14:52:31.425] [KSP Interstellar] Configuring Generator

[LOG 14:52:31.454] Reactor OnStart

[LOG 14:52:31.454] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (ThermalPower)

[LOG 14:52:31.454] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (ChargedParticles)

[LOG 14:52:31.454] Warning: Fusion Reactor MJ deprived, consuming 3693.79996626526 ElectricCharge

[LOG 14:52:31.666] Generator OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:52:31.666] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:52:31.691] Generator OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:52:31.691] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

...

[ctbram]

You're not going crazy, I can reproduce it here.

Take the fresh built version, stick the generator *below* the reactor. Magically works.

Alternatively, add another 4k battery bank. Also works.

What's going on here is different part OnStart/OnFixedUpdate order (added a bunch of debug prints to tell WTF is going on):

fresh built:

[LOG 14:49:22.778] Reactor OnStart

[LOG 14:49:22.780] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (ThermalPower)

[LOG 14:49:22.780] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (WasteHeat)

[LOG 14:49:22.780] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (ChargedParticles)

[LOG 14:49:22.782] Warning: Fusion Reactor MJ deprived, consuming 3693.79996626526 ElectricCharge

[LOG 14:49:22.813] Generator OnStart

[LOG 14:49:22.813] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB fresh built version (Megajoules)

[LOG 14:49:22.814] [KSP Interstellar] Configuring Generator

[LOG 14:49:22.815] [KSP Interstellar] Radiation Module Loaded.

[LOG 14:49:23.156] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:49:23.160] Warning: Fusion Reactor MJ deprived, consuming 3693.79996626526 ElectricCharge <- completely depletes ElectricCharge here

[LOG 14:49:23.160] Warning: Fusion Reactor power deprived

[LOG 14:49:23.161] Warning: Reactor resource deprived, shutting down

[LOG 14:49:23.162] Generator OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:49:23.330] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:49:23.331] Generator OnFixedUpdate

...

stripped version:

[LOG 14:52:31.396] [KSP Interstellar] Radiation Module Loaded.

[LOG 14:52:31.425] Generator OnStart

[LOG 14:52:31.425] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (Megajoules)

[LOG 14:52:31.425] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (WasteHeat)

[LOG 14:52:31.425] [KSP Interstellar] Configuring Generator

[LOG 14:52:31.454] Reactor OnStart

[LOG 14:52:31.454] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (ThermalPower)

[LOG 14:52:31.454] [ORS] Creating Resource Manager for Vessel FRTB Stripped Version ktec (ChargedParticles)

[LOG 14:52:31.454] Warning: Fusion Reactor MJ deprived, consuming 3693.79996626526 ElectricCharge

[LOG 14:52:31.666] Generator OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:52:31.666] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:52:31.691] Generator OnFixedUpdate

[LOG 14:52:31.691] Reactor OnFixedUpdate

...

Thank you so much! This was making me insane! Where / how did you get the log printouts. Is that is the standard log.txt file or did you have to do something to get those read outs? This is much of my frustration with ISM. Here are quotes diectly from the damn Wiki ...

1. Fusion reactors, powered by deuterium and tritium, requires MJ to start and operate the reaction laser.

2. 1 MegaJoule is equal to 1000 ElectricCharge.

So from this I read I need 1MJ to start the reactor and 1MJ is 1000Ec so a 4000Ec battery should be plenty. Furthermore why 4000 is not enough but 8000 is makes no sense and how the F is someone suppose to know that if it's not explained in oh just off the top of my head the DAMN description that comes with the bloody part!!!! Also, if putting the generator under or on top of the reactor makes a difference that might also be a good idea to mention some damn place. I literally went the last two nights without sleep trying to figure this thing out and I am pretty happy you took the time to figure it out for me but also pretty damn pissed at the same time that this FEATURE is not described anywhere.

I know this is a great mod but if there are limitations on stuff like this it really needs to be explained someplace without have to resort to adding debug lines to the log text files or hacking the source code to uncover how things work.

Edited May 4, 2014 by ctbram

[artforz]

Imo it's a combination of at least 2 bugs/design problems.

1. Consuming managed resources in OnStart (there's no guarantee the ResourceManager for that resource even exists at that point)

2. ResourceManager seems to refuse to hand out MJ if no part(s) have called supplyFNResource so far (guess what, generators do that in OnFixedUpdate ...).

Fix for 1. would be to do all the "process resource consumption/production for time elapsed while vessel was on rails" stuff in the first call of OnFixedUpdate and not in OnStart.

For 2. Ugh. The whole ORS/ResourceManager/ResourceOverManager stuff is rather complex. Can't really tell how it's supposed to work, let alone if what it's actually doing is anywhere close...

[Einarr]

Take a few moments to calm down. You missed a bit. IIRC 1 MW = 1 MJ/sec, essentially 1000 EC/sec. Many of the larger fusion reactor require a decent chunk of MW to heat plasma or run the laser. The exact numbers can be found in the.part details section of the wiki...and probably also in-game in the VAB/SPH tooltips. In most vases, initial power up of the reactor only requires a second or less of the energy required to run the laser/heat plasma. It's always a good idea to ensure you can power that for at least one second. I also have a backup power supply in the form of a capacitor from Near Future Propulsion in the.event I run out of EC. The 12k battery pack is also useful... Might also be worthwhile having a small fission reactor to generate some MJ for starting the fusion. It does not need to be powerful enough to continuously run the fusion as the two generators you'll have (one for the fission, one for the fusion) should have enough MJ storage to jumpstart the fusion.when filled enough.

[artforz]

Well, you can actually calculate how many EC you need for guaranteed startup.

You need enough EC to run the laser/field for 0.04 seconds.

A 3.75m tokamak running D/T needs 184.69MW (even says so in the tooltip).

184.69MW * 0.04s = 7.3876MJ

1EC = 1kJ, so you need at least 7387.6 EC on the vessel.

It *may* work with half that, but that is in "generator has to tick before reactor" territory.

[ctbram]

Once again I truly thank you for taking the time to look into this. I was onthe verge of taking a baseball bat to my computer. I was waiting for the police to show up at my door because I was screaming at my computer to the point where I would not have been surprise if the neighbors called the police thinking a murder was taking place over here!

There is one further request I would ask. Can you describe how this on startup stuff works and where it can be found in the logs. I can swear I searched the log txt file and turned on f2 and did a f12 debug thing but there is so much crap that flies by and off screen that you can't possibly catch anything useful unless you already know exactly what you are looking for. That is to say the general user hasn't a clue.

I simply removed the 4k battery and replaced it with 6x 1200Ec batteries on the test bed for 7200Ec and now I can switch away and come back. It turns out for the two ship designs that are working that is the parts setup I had. But honestly it was by shear dumb *** luck because the requirements are no where to be found other then the two quotes I pulled from the wiki which clearly imply 1MJ is all that is required to start the damn reactor.

I even did the kinda flaky math when I rebuilt the new ship and was thinking (1MJ to start the reactor, 1MJ for the computer core)x2 is 4MJ == 4000Ec. Bingo I just reduce the weight of my ship and still have two times the power I need to start the reactor and run the computer core long enough for the generator to kick in. Well 48 sleepless hours and just seconds from beating the bejesus out of my computer with a baseball bat later I find 7200Ec is enough. What is to say the next ship will need more? With this not be explained any friggin place how is someone supposed to know?

You know I have a masters degree in aerospace engineering from the University of Michigan and when it comes to building things for space as well as terrestrial flight there is one rule that is important above all else and it goes like this....

If you are concerned about adding any absolutely non-essential part that will add weight to your ship do the following. Put all the bits you want to add in a big pile. Then toss the big pile into the air. Anything that does NOT come down is okay to add!!!!

Which is to say make the darn thing as light as you can! So far this mod promotes adding huge amounts of extra weight to you ships because you have no way of knowing before you use things how much power you are going to need and that is a major flaw in this mod!

Edited May 4, 2014 by ctbram

[artforz]

Like I wrote, I added code to WarpPlugin to actually get that output in KSP.log...

Hopefully Fractal will fix this in the next version so you no longer need undocumented magic values of EC on a vessel for fusion reactors to reliably work.

[ctbram]

Well, you can actually calculate how many EC you need for guaranteed startup.

You need enough EC to run the laser/field for 0.04 seconds.

A 3.75m tokamak running D/T needs 184.69MW (even says so in the tooltip).

184.69MW * 0.04s = 7.3876MJ

1EC = 1kJ, so you need at least 7387.6 EC on the vessel.

It *may* work with half that, but that is in "generator has to tick before reactor" territory.

Yes I saw the 184.7MW but it says nothing about the required 0.04seconds!!! You can't say it's explained in the description when it leaves out have the required information to make the proper calculation. lol

and now I know my four ships that seem to me working are 0.1876 MJ under powered if not for the hand full of blutonium generators I forgot to remove. lol

[Einarr]

The wiki could be updated to include the correct and complete information needed to ensure proper reactor startup...I'm away from my computer now. Artforz, any chance you could do this as you have the needed info close at hand?

[ctbram]

Thanks that would be very nice. I have bumped heads with trying to make informed decisions when adding power to my ships with this mod before. But this one had me ready to go out a strangle a bunny rabbit! We really need critical information about power requirement BEFORE we build things and ship them to eeloo!

[jffr363]

Hey guys, so im new to this mod, but so far loving it. But im having a problem. So i built a large craft with a fusion reactor powering a thermal rocket. Everything was working fine during launch and during the transfer burn to Duna. I brought a lander along and got to the surface of duna and then made it back, but once i redocked with the mothership, the thermal rocket seems kinda bugged. Its locked at 1000 isp in either LFO or Liquid mode and only producing 500kn of thrust. I cant figure out why. I have made a quicksave and loaded, quit the game and loaded it back up. I even shutdown and restarted the reactor. I may be missing something but im not sure what it would be. Any help would be awesome.

[undercoveryankee]

Well, you can actually calculate how many EC you need for guaranteed startup.

You need enough EC to run the laser/field for 0.04 seconds.

A 3.75m tokamak running D/T needs 184.69MW (even says so in the tooltip).

184.69MW * 0.04s = 7.3876MJ

1EC = 1kJ, so you need at least 7387.6 EC on the vessel.

It *may* work with half that, but that is in "generator has to tick before reactor" territory.

Where does 0.04 seconds come from? Is it hard-coded, or does it depend on your max physics delta?

[artforz]

Done, the reactor page needed some love anyways (thermal generators and rocket nozzles *can* use ChargedParticles...)

[WaveFunctionP]

Done, the reactor page needed some love anyways (thermal generators and rocket nozzles *can* use ChargedParticles...)

More like *will* use charged particles, as there does not appear to be a check to see if a more efficient source is using them currently. I'll be glad when I figure out how to remove that little annoyance.

[Fractal_UK]

Where does 0.04 seconds come from? Is it hard-coded, or does it depend on your max physics delta?

It's always going to depend on physics delta time with electric charge because the reactor is trying to supply the resources in an unmanaged fashion until the fusion reactor can take over to supply itself with megajoules. Battery capacity is critical with stock resources.

It's much more reliable to use a microwave receiver as a start up power system because then you just need to be able to receive enough power to satisfy the reactor power requirements and toggle the reactor to active. Then you can shut down the receiver and use internal power.

Using electric charge is an option there for convenience but you'll need to test your battery capacity yourself and make sure it provides enough for your needs.

[artforz]

I'm honestly not sure.

It's really 2*TimeWarp.fixedDeltaTime, which seems to always be 0.02s here at 1x independent of max physics delta.

[artforz]

Well, the whole ThermalPower/ChargedParticles system seems to currently be a bit broken. Stick some other reactors on a vessel, a AM reactor and a thermal nozzle on the AM reactor. The thermal nozzle happily works even though there's no AM anywhere...