Dreams of Duna (image heavy)

[Silverchain]

I liked your rover design enough to steal and modify it... apparently Doodgan likes it too.

[borisperrons]

A cycler? Well, that's something I never seen in KSP. You must have put an awful lot of effort in planning it.

What kind of orbit are you planning to put it on?

[Speeding Mullet]

This mission is still progressing in a very interesting way and I think the ions drives for the cycler are the way to go - As you say resupply would be expensive.

You are doing this mod free aren't you? Only reason I ask is I toyed with tethering to simulate gravity using KAS for my Zubrin style "Mars Direct" mission but I couldn't get it to work.

[meyst]

Thanks Silverchain! I am still surprised how popular that rover has turned out being.

I will be doing the missions without any mods. I did download and have a look at what KAS, Kethane and deadly re-entry among others had to offer. I normally play KSP without any mods and we already had plenty of examples that made great use of them, so I decided I would continue being a rebel and not use any.

At this time I am favoring using an '

r' for the outbound trip. This is going to be dependent on the currently still in development Taxi vehicle however. The Aldrin cycler needs less cycler craft but is a high energy transfer so if my Taxi ship ends up heavy I will likely switch to an orbit more like

(I flew a test but it was a serious challenge). This second option is more fuel efficient but would require MOAR cyclers and overall MOAR stuff.

For the inbound trip I will most likely be flying just inside the orbit of Duna at its highest point and down to Kerbin at the lowest point. The cycler will orbit around the sun three times every two synodic periods. I may add minor propulsive maneuvers to manage the orbits to reduce the Taxi vehicles delta V requirements to that of a Hohmann transfer. That maneuver will depend on the relative mass and Isps of the taxi and cycler however. I could not find a video for this one.

For using cyclers 1000 days is very short term and makes planning to get use out of them very challenging. This short term heavily favors shorter synodic period cyclers, such as the Aldrin cycler.

Edited March 3, 2014 by meyst

[borisperrons]

I will likely switch to an orbit more like

I tip my hat to you, sir. Just thinking about doing something that complex is something that needs respect, IMHO.

Here, take some rep.

Edited March 3, 2014 by borisperrons

[Geschosskopf]

At this time I am favoring using an '

r' for the outbound trip. This is going to be dependent on the currently still in development Taxi vehicle however. The Aldrin cycler needs less cycler craft but is a high energy transfer so if my Taxi ship ends up heavy I will likely switch to an orbit more like

(I flew a test but it was a serious challenge). This second option is more fuel efficient but would require MOAR cyclers and overall MOAR stuff.

Egad. I need to get into cyclers someday. Maybe when I have to start paying for all the rocket parts and fuel. Right now, the ease of just blasting stuff off Kerbin any time you need to lowers the incentive to do cyclers, especially because MATH .

[meyst]

Got some free time and made some progress. Both pictures are from lander testing.

The lander is built from three modules, two of which are going to be used extensively in other capacities as well.

Taxi module

for short duration crew missions; Such as landing on Duna or crew transfer to a Cycler vehicle.

Duna Landing Pack module

for all the specialized kit required to land on Duna and return to orbit.

Booster module primarily used as the engine for interplanetary burns and protection of payload during aerocapture maneuvers. A booster module is used on the lander to protect the craft during entry and slow the craft for final approach. Booster is jettisoned just before touchdown.

Entry testing. From closest to furthest, right to left. Booster module, Duna Landing Pack, Taxi module

Grounded on a 10 degree slope, fuel tanks almost completely full.

I was able to do a landing test on Kerbin due to the redundant thrust from the engine out capability on the propulsive modules. With an engine out the craft suffers from reduced maneuverability making landing more difficult. With the loss of any engine the craft remains controllable with enough delta V to perform an abort to Duna orbit however. Also in the event of an engine failing after landing or during dust off the ship will still be able to make orbit.

Lander can be equipped with additional fuel for the booster module to facilitate landings at high altitudes on Duna where parachutes do not function correctly and loiter capability to facilitate landings in difficult terrain (such as mountain tops and valleys)

I am concerned about my lander being tall. Especially seeing as I would like to make at least one landing in the mountains of Duna. Kerbals however seem to enjoy jumping out of it even though it is not intended for use as a diving board.

[Speeding Mullet]

Nice update, it's very interesting to see this one coming together. The main thread to the challenge looks like it's quietened down a bit recently, do you know if sturmstiger is still checking in? I quite fancy another stab at this challenge once my Kethane Jool 5 challenge is complete (that is a nightmare!)

If you are worried about your lander being tall and you are open to some mild clipping I can suggest a solution should you wish to see it. I don't want to post pictures to your thread without your permission, and judging by the complexity of designing a cycler, you will already know where I am going with it but happy to if you want!

[meyst]

During his last update Sturmstiger said he has gotten very busy with real life things (I can relate) and said he will look in from time to time. I am in no rush and want to complete my end of the project scoreboard or not.

I like to avoid part clipping as much as I can. Having said that though, more ideas could be interesting to see. Feel free to post your part clipping ideas, just don't expect them to see use.

I also want to add, my booster/tug modules come in at a mass of 2 tons with 1 ton of internal fuel. The rest of the fuel loading for a transfer will be docked to the stack being pushed. This makes the fuel load fully customizable, a necessity (and planning nightmare) considering I will be using transfers to cycler orbits as well as Bi-elliptic and Hohmann transfers with a variety of cargo mass'.

[Northstar1989]

Excellent thread so far. I particularly like the Cycler idea as a solution to the extra living-space and supplies needed for the challenge (it doesn't make sense otherwise- as you are essentially spending all the fuel for a high-energy transfer or carrying the life support supplies for an extremely-slow transfer, depending on the Cycler design used).

You might try use of Solar Sails (from KSP-Intersellar) on your cyclers as a more sustainable (zero-upkeep) method of making EXTREMELY small orbital adjustments.

During his last update Sturmstiger said he has gotten very busy with real life things (I can relate) and said he will look in from time to time. I am in no rush and want to complete my end of the project scoreboard or not.

Hmmm, that's good to know! I just entered an inquiry on the thread about the use of some mod parts from KSP-Interstellar (Molten Salt Reactors, Plasma Thrusters, Microwave Beamed Power, Solar Sails, Thermal Rockets, and Thermal Turbojets based on beamed-power) that represent technologies feasible in the current day and age (everything on that list but Molten Salt Reactors) or the very near future (Molten Salt Reactors) which simply haven't gotten enough love from NASA for one reason or another...

I can wait for his reply though- I have a lot to do in my current Career save before I decide it's time to delete it and re-install KSP with new mods... (my major full-scale Duna colonization effort- which will provide me with experience and some insights for the challenge, even if I'm using banned mods such as Extraplanetary Launchpads; a Sentar system flags-and-scoot mission; and ongoing preparations for a Munar outpost)

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/672x504q90/585/9xc1.png

That's a LOT of solar panels- have you ever considered installing the NearFuture propulsion pack just for its Megalador solar panels (bigger than the stock Gigantors). You could even delete all the other parts from the pack and just keep it for its larger solar panels- though its Dual-Stage Four-Grid ion thrusters would serve you well with their much higher ISP ratings (19200s- they match real-world examples of that technology), great for your cyclers...

I know you're against using mods for the challenge- but you might want to give it a try.

They will also provide electric power by 'harvesting' photons of light from the Sun and 'beaming' the energy to the ground based assets. Our engineer caution this could allow rovers to make really cool jumps and think it would be better to store the energy using batteries for other uses. Such as running nightlights to keep our brave exporters safe from nightmares.

HOW, exactly? The only way I know of to beam Microwave Power is with KSP-Interstellar, and I don't see a Microwave Transceiver anywhere on it (the dish there looks like a large stock comms dish or an Interstellar Microwave Receiver- which is capable of receiving, but not transmitting or relaying, Microwave Power). I'm guessing this is just meta-gaming, and you don't actually have a beamed-power network in place?

You COULD install KSP Interstellar, though, and beam the power from that satellite to your Duna base(s) using the Microwave Beamed Power system in the mod, though. Only, don't expect very high power output at Duna-distances when running the mod, even with that many solar panels- KSP Interstellar also implements a realistic Inverse-Square law for stellar illumination of solar panels, meaning your solar panels will produce even less power at Duna-distances (but more power at Eve-distances) than you're used to, as stock KSP doesn't implement a realistic rule for stellar radiation with distance... (it's too flat- power production doesn't increase or fade quickly enough with increasing/decreasing distance from the sun)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited June 24, 2014 by Northstar1989

[meyst]

Keeping busy has a way of keeping one busy but slowly things continue to advance. Good to see more people take interest.

The cycler concept is one I have been curious about myself and had not seen done so I wanted to investigate it further by including it. (serious handful though)

The Solar Array 'beaming power down' is just thoughts and not game enabled. Much like how some people who did the challenge did so with satellites for communications. Mine just happens to be bigger, more capable (and could be pressed into use as a backup power supply for a crippled cycler vehicle).

For this I choose to do it without mods because it feels right to me.

[meyst]

long overdue for an update. Just a matter of breaking it all down into the details of the individual launches for the full 1000 day plan to start flying. I have considered asking on the forums if anyone with artistic talent would be willing to make some diagrams as to how this all works. I think this would go a long way to prevent incidents of eye bleeding. I was thinking something like the diagrams showing how the Apollo Moon landings worked. What do you think?

Have any ideas for cycler vehicle names?

External game tools that I am using for planning or intended to use while executing.

Alexmoon's Launch Window Planner

Alterbaron's Aerobreaking Calculator

PLAD's Flyby Finder

Overall Plan Highlights

Cyclers! Three of them.

One of the planned cycler trips will transit a crew from the SOI of Kerbin to the SOI of Duna, in thirty days. The cycler in question flys a fast outbound Aldrin cycler trajectory.

A propulsive Gravity Assisted Breaking Maneuver at the Mun.

4 ton capable reusable lifter used every 7 days, well over 70 total launches in the first 500 days.

Eve Flyby on day 217, closest approach of 1622 KM.

First crew land onDuna day 260. The first crew will return to Kerbin day 512, using the same cycler vehicle they arrived on for the return trip.

All Stock Game.

Launch plan for the first 500 days. I think this would look a great deal better in pictures...

10 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

17 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

24 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

31 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

38 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

45 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

46 Final assembly of Duna Habitat I in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna Hab, Booster, Fuel Cell, Fuel Cells[3], Rover)

52 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

58 Duna Habitat I Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

59 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

66 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

73 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

80 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

81 Final assembly of Duna Habitat II in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna Hab, Booster, Fuel Cell, Fuel Cells[3], Rover)

87 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

87 Solar Array I start of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

90 Solar Array I completion of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

94 Taxies Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

95 Duna Habitat II Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

101 Cycler Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

108 Cycler Spine Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

115 Cycler Supply Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

121 Aerocapture of Duna Hab I into Duna orbit.

122 Cycler Supply Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

129 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

136 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

143 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

150 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

151 Final Assembly of Cycler vehicle I (Cycler Hab, Cycler Spine, Cycler Supplies [2], Solar Array) and payload (Taxi, Booster, Roller Bobs [3])

152 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle I via a Tarriance launch

153 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle I via a Tarriance launch

154 Cycler Vehicle I start of Trans Eve Injection Maneuvers

157 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

164 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

165 Cycler Vehicle I completion of Trans Eve Injection Maneuvers

171 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

178 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

185 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

192 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

199 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

200 Final Assembly of Duna Habitat III with supplies in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna

Hab, Rover, Roller Bobs [3], Fuel Cell[2], Fuel Cells[2], Booster)

206 Cycler Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

213 Cycler Spine Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

217 Cycler Vehicle I Eve Flyby, closest approach of 1622 KM for gravity assist to Duna.

220 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

223 Propulsive Capture of Solar Array I into a high eccentricity Duna Orbit.

227 Larders Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

234 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

235 Final Assembly of Cycler Vehicle II (Cycler Hab, Cycler Spine, Solar Array, Larders (3), Booster, Taxi)

239 Aerocapture of Duna Hab II into Duna orbit

241 Larders Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

248 Taxies Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

255 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

256 Final Assembly of Taxi vehicle for intercept of Cycler Vehicle I during Kerbin Flyby (Taxi, Larders(2), Booster, Fuel Cell, Fuel Cells)

257 Two Kerbals, Taxi, Booster and Roller Bobs (3) Depart from Cycler Vehicle I. Minor propulsive maneuvers of Taxi, Booster and Roller Bobs to facilitate Duna aerocaptures.

260 Aerocapture of Roller Bobs (3), Taxi and Booster into Duna orbit. Cycler Vehicle I Duna Flyby and closest approach of 544 KM for gravity assist to Kerbin. Taxi docks with Duna Habitat I. Two Kerbals transfer to Duna Habitat I. Duna Habitat I and three Roller Bobs land on the surface of Duna. Solar Array I maneuvers into position to support landed Duna Habitat.

262 Monopacks Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

269 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

276 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

282 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle II via a Tarriance launch

283 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle II via a Tarriance launch

283 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

284 Cycler Vehicle II start of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

289 Duna Habitat III Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

290 Landing Pack Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

295 Cycler Vehicle II completion of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

297 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

301 Cycler Vehicle I, Mun Interception Maneuver

304 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

305 Final assembly of Supply Mission I (MonoPack, Landing Pack, Roller Bobs[3], Booster and Fuel Cell[2] for transit to Duna)

305 Kerbal delivered to Taxi vehicle via a Tarriance launch for approaching taxi intercept of cycler vehicle I

306 Kerbal delivered to Taxi vehicle via a Tarriance launch for approaching taxi intercept of cycler vehicle I

308 Cycler Vehicle I, Propulsive Gravity Assisted Breaking Maneuver at Mun to set up Kerbin Gravity Assist to Duna. Cycler Vehicle I Kerbin Flyby. Depart of Taxi from Kerbin with two Kerbals on board to randevous and dock with Cycler vehicle I bound for Duna.

311 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

312 Supply Mission I Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

318 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

319 Final assembly of Supply Mission II (Booster, Fuel Cell, Roller Bobs[3])

323 Depart of Taxi and booster with two Kerbas from Cycler Vehicle II in preparation for Duna aerocature.

325 Cycler Vehicle II flyby of Duna. Aerocapture of Taxi and booster carrying two Kerbals into Duna orbit. Taxi docks with Duna Habitat II. Two Kerbals transfer to Duna Habitat II. Duna Habitat II lands on the surface of Duna.

325 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

326 Supply Mission II Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

332 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

339 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

346 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

350 Breakup of Duna Habitat III and Roller Bobs(3) in preparation for aerocaptures

353 Aerocaptures of Duna Hab III and Roller Bobs(3) into Duna orbit

353 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

360 Landing Pack Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

361 Final assebly of Supply Mission III (Booster, Landing Pack, Fuel Cell [2], Roller Bob[3])

367 Cycler Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

368 Supply Mission III Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

374 Cycler Spine Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

375 Depart of Taxi and booster with two Kerbas from Cycler Vehicle I and three Roller Bobs in preparation for Duna aerocature.

378 Cycler Vehicle I flyby of Duna. Aerocapture of Taxi and booster carrying two Kerbals into Duna orbit. Taxi docks with Duna Habitat III. Two Kerbals transfer to Duna Habitat III. Duna Habitat III and three Roller Bobs land on the surface of Duna. Taxi vehicle remains in orbit

381 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

388 Larders Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

395 Taxies Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

396 Final Assembly of Cycler Vehicle III (Cycler Hab, Cycler Spine, Solar Array, Larders (3), Booster, Taxi)

402 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

409 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

416 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

417 Final Assembly of Taxi vehicle for intercept of Cycler Vehicle II during Kerbin Flyby (Taxi, Larder, Booster, Fuel Cell)

423 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

430 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

437 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

442 Breakup of Supply Mission I and Roller Bobs(3) in preparation for aerocaptures

444 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

445 Aerocaptures of Supply Mission I (MonoPack, Landing Pack, Booster, Fuel Cell[2]) and Roller Bobs(3) into Duna orbit.

451 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

458 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

465 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

466 Final Assembly of Duna Habitat IV with supplies in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna

Hab, Rover, Roller Bobs[3], Fuel Cell[3], Booster)

472 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

475 Breakup of Supply Mission II Roller Bobs in preparation for aerocaptures

478 Aerocaptures of Supply Mission II (Booster, Fuel Cell) and Roller Bobs(3) into Duna orbit .

479 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

486 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

493 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

500 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

[meve12]

Roller Bobs?

[meyst]

Good question I just realized I neglected to put a picture of them in this thread. The Roller Bobs will be launched two at a time into orbit using the Sylph lift vehicle and represent supplies (water, snacks etc for the Kerbals). They can be moved (slowly) by rolling on the ground using reaction wheels or by tipping onto an unmanned rover to be moved like in this picture. In the lower gravity of Duna they will be able to 'right' themselves off the rover when the destination is reached.

It's the white thing dominated by the jet fuel tank that represents the supplies sitting on top of the moving rover.

[meve12]

Oh Ok.

...I think I can do a diagram like what you're suggesting. BRB.

[meve12]

Here's an experiment...

- - - Updated - - -

...Ok, so you CAN upload from devaint art.

[meve12]

Here's a more complete version. I may have taken some artistic license with some of the vehicles.

[meyst]

I took a break from gaming but I am back with a new plan, pictures and time to fly.

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[meyst]

Duna Base

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[DBowman]

... I toyed with tethering to simulate gravity using KAS for my Zubrin style "Mars Direct" mission but I couldn't get it to work.

Same here; the cable is too short, the floppiness is a problem, using 2 for redundancy made it hard (impossible?) to wind it in 'safely'. I wondered how hard it would be to tweak the KAS 'piston' to be 500m long - nice and rigid etc.

meyst - nice! packed with interesting goodness; cyclers, solar microwave power, Roller Bob, and the casual use of sky-cranes!

Edited April 26, 2015 by DBowman

[meyst]

The most recent update changed many of the engines in addition to the aerodynamics. I have yet to decide if I will finish this using 0.90. If not I will start a new 1.02+ challenge to revamp the old challenge and start new. What do you all think?