The KSP Naval Academy

[Valley]

Saw the video - very detailed. Like how you bring up Babylon 5 - while I thought its plots reminded me of Lord of the Rings the space combat seemed realistic and many of the designs do make me think of some of the warships I see being developed in the Naval Battle thread and the Spirit/Hanland thread - maybe because they deal with the same physics - just on a smaller scale.

I think carriers would be less endangered if there was some way to protect them - too bad there is no military network mod where ships could be programmed to defend each other.

Scouts would be important in a turn based game IF ships were only be seen on the map by the enemy player if detected FIRST by some kind of sensor.

[zekes]

So what's your take on super light (>5tons)? Are they useful or space junk spam? Mine are 2 tons with a 2.44 ton missile.

[Sliinty]

Whats your opinion on the rule of shooting one target with everything?

On the Navalbattle thread I earlier suggested a system of firing weapons by weight:

Ships under 50T can fire 15% of their mass (which is 2 SRBs for a 50T ship) in one turn at up to 2 targets.

Ships under 75T which have been classified as destroyers can fire 30% of their mass (which is 6 SRBs for a 75T ship) at up to 1 target.

Ships under 150T can fire 15% of their mass (which is 6 SRBs for a 150T ship) in one turn at up to 3 targets.

Ships over 150T can fire 10% of their mass (to discourage lag machines, maybe, I don't stick by this one...) at up to 5 targets.

Or something similar.

Do you think that sort of thing would be a step in the right direction? Thereby negating the effectiveness of ships that are just shrouds for missiles cough *zekes* cough. (But hey, I gotta push the KIDA advantage somehow).

Also I like how its the usual suspects on this thread XD

[Spartwo]

It would play to my liking the highest ratio I have is 45% but having a ship with extremely effective ordenence would be an issue.

[Sliinty]

It would play to my liking the highest ratio I have is 45% but having a ship with extremely effective ordenence would be an issue.

extremely effective ordinance is a little too abundant right now imo it doesnt seem to matter how much iron you pile on, you cant stop a 15, 20, 30 ton bundle of joy wrecking you in this game, full stop. Also this would hopefully open up a new role in an escort style ship that takes on multiple fighters at once.

[Valley]

I think tonnage decides order of battle - who goes first. How about number of crew acting as action points per turn? No Kerbals one target. One Kerbal two targets. And So on.

[Spartwo]

I have unmanned fighters for safety add a cockpit (which would be more efficiant) and I get another target doesn't seem very fair:(

[camulus777]

Next video is going to be on the effectiveness of fighters and drones. As for scouting it could be done effectively if in a player vs player battle there was a referee with 2 save files one made by each side and and the ref would edit them to show what each player sees. Then compile it into one file for combat. I little complex but it would create the illusion of having two sides. He could even put NPC party ships like freighters and such so that an fof conformation had to be made to see if the target was hostile.

Edited August 10, 2013 by camulus777

[camulus777]

a missile is a missile. My drones are about that size id not a tad lighter and as defense against fighters they are great. Against larger ships they are a little less effective but if you can hit that sweet spot even they can take out a cap. My standard torps are a bit more effective than Macey's but that's probably because he didn't have the .21 parts yet.

[camulus777]

another way scouts can me effective is for larger ships to be able to move and launch fighters before lighters ships, they can't fire but if a fighter came into range of your carrier and you detected it you should be able to move your carrier away and launch your escorts at least otherwise carriers no matter where they are and no matter what you escort them with will die if you attack them with two light ships. one gets destroyed by the escort then the other manages to move past like 10 fighters and drones without having to evade them at all and gets to fly right into the hanger ad blow it up. If scouts gave the carrier the advantage of being able to flee than the attacker would have to choose do i attack the fighters that are going to kill my fleet or do i chase down an empty carrier and probably run out of fuel in the proses. That's even if you can catch up to it. Another effect this would have is people would have to design ships that had a lot of fuel and only one weapon to take out a carrier, like an attack sub is.

[Gauss H2K]

another way scouts can me effective is for larger ships to be able to move and launch fighters before lighters ships, they can't fire but if a fighter came into range of your carrier and you detected it you should be able to move your carrier away and launch your escorts at least otherwise carriers no matter where they are and no matter what you escort them with will die if you attack them with two light ships. one gets destroyed by the escort then the other manages to move past like 10 fighters and drones without having to evade them at all and gets to fly right into the hanger ad blow it up. If scouts gave the carrier the advantage of being able to flee than the attacker would have to choose do i attack the fighters that are going to kill my fleet or do i chase down an empty carrier and probably run out of fuel in the proses. That's even if you can catch up to it. Another effect this would have is people would have to design ships that had a lot of fuel and only one weapon to take out a carrier, like an attack sub is.

Or an unmanned/decoy fighter could launch into a carrier task group in an effort to force the carrier to flee to an obvious retreat point, at which point an ambush set up by a few stealth ships "subs" to destroy/capture the carrier. If the carrier is destroyed, the subs need then to only focus on escaping to a point where the swarm of fighters would have to make a choice of chasing the stealth vessels that are at that point theoretically unarmed, but might be able to rearm, and do another ambush strike on another high value target, but then they ignore the mostly undamaged enemy force. However if the carrier bugs out with support, then the task group loses its power, and as long as the carrier doesn't accidentally close within visual range, the stealth ships could still remain stealthy by doing nothing. Hence its a win-win scenario for the side with the stealth vessels.

This is based on there being a concept of stealth ships, whose stealth comes from having no reflective surfaces, angled surfaces to deflect radar, remain motionless to not give off thermal energy, whose only "propulsion" is RCS when trying to run quiet, which they can't use when under scrutiny as motion will surely give away their position, and they can't use their own sensors/radar to detect other vessels as its not hard to detect where a radar wave is coming from.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Gauss H2K

[Spartwo]

This is based on there being a concept of stealth ships, whose stealth comes from having no reflective surfaces, angled surfaces to deflect radar, remain motionless to not give off thermal energy, whose only "propulsion" is RCS when trying to run quiet, which they can't use when under scrutiny as motion will surely give away their position, and they can't use their own sensors/radar to detect other vessels as its not hard to detect where a radar wave is coming from.

Wait...I have one of those.EDIT:this count?no thought so has an engine.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Spartwo

[camulus777]

Stealth in KSP would be difficult to judge but it could work if there was a standard to follow like you said. Angled edges, non-reflective surfaces, Low heat plume, and giving off no em or radio waves. There is a theory however that low band radar is more effective at detecting stealth craft. The biggest problem i have with stealth is lidar. We have a system now that can use ultra slow motion light capturing technology to scan a 360o area in a fraction of a second. A pulse of IR or UV light is sent out an when the light reacts with anything at all it can be detected. If you have two or more systems like this spread out at at least 50m apart you can see just about everything withing a light seconds distance instantly, a light minute witch is about 1/8 of an AU will take about two minutes to get a full 3d image of your surroundings. It'a just a fun game of measure, counter measure.

[Gauss H2K]

Stealth in KSP would be difficult to judge but it could work if there was a standard to follow like you said. Angled edges, non-reflective surfaces, Low heat plume, and giving off no em or radio waves. There is a theory however that low band radar is more effective at detecting stealth craft. The biggest problem i have with stealth is lidar. We have a system now that can use ultra slow motion light capturing technology to scan a 360o area in a fraction of a second. A pulse of IR or UV light is sent out an when the light reacts with anything at all it can be detected. If you have two or more systems like this spread out at at least 50m apart you can see just about everything withing a light seconds distance instantly, a light minute witch is about 1/8 of an AU will take about two minutes to get a full 3d image of your surroundings. It'a just a fun game of measure, counter measure.

Light doesn't bend around objects (most of the time), debris could be hid behind, which is a simple, but effective solution. Also it takes some time to fully scan an area, and if things are rushed like during an escape, the only intel may be from a previously scanned area, which if extreme care was taken, like setting up "convenient" debris/ electronic warfare to cause holes in the sweep. Stealth vessels are possible, its just that you can't declare one sneaky.

[Gauss H2K]

Wait...I have one of those.EDIT:this count?http://i.imgur.com/M2FuAYT.png?1

The little ones, maybe, but remember bigger vessels have bigger profiles, also solar panels are reflective surfaces meant to absorb energy, meaning any solar panels are not stealthy. Thermal generators can't be exposed on the outside of the vessel for the same reasoning. The RCS is due to it being a gas used as a reactionary force, "Stealth" fighters then need to carry enough RCS, and thrusters to be able to have a few hundred meters delta v

[camulus777]

This system actually can bounce light around objects and see behind them. The moon for example would be lit up the system would then detect the small changes in luminosity when the reflected light bounces off an object behind the debris if there is a void then the system will also detect it as long as there is something to reflect behind it. If the object passes in front of a star the system will detect it. Scanning in a 3d 360o area works at the speed of light. The light capturing cameras record at a rate of around 2 billion frames per second and processes that data instantly. You can use this system to peak around corners or even determine what the dimensions are in a room filled with objects. It's more like sonar with light than radar.

[Sliinty]

Light doesn't bend around objects (most of the time), debris could be hid behind, which is a simple, but effective solution. Also it takes some time to fully scan an area, and if things are rushed like during an escape, the only intel may be from a previously scanned area, which if extreme care was taken, like setting up "convenient" debris/ electronic warfare to cause holes in the sweep. Stealth vessels are possible, its just that you can't declare one sneaky.

Im gonna be the devils advocate here: stealth vessels are not possible. Residual heat from firing your engines or using any system aboard your ship will make you stick out like a sore thumb from a debris field etc etc. There aint no stealth in space.

Also camulus, that page is written by the nyrath guy I mentioned on your youtube video.

[Spartwo]

what about being the debris cloud?Constructing a cluster of shrouded fighters which on the surface appear to be parts of a larger ship.once a ship comes within range the engines fire,the shroud detaches.From that point on the ship would be easily detected.The point wouldn't be to not get detected rather to be ignored.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Spartwo

[Sliinty]

what about being the debris cloud?Constructing a cluster of shrouded fighters which on the surface appear to be parts of a larger ship.once a ship comes within range the engines fire,the shroud detaches.From that point on the ship would be easily detected.The point wouldn't be to not get detected rather to be ignored.

So If I understand you right you mean put a bunch of fighters in place that look like bits of debris?

Again, youll be too hot to pass yourself off as debris. (unless its the debris of a recently destroyed ship, which would be what I would assume I had seen, therefore get rather frightened and be on high alert)

[camulus777]

I would agree with your friend at the moment we have no way of making a stealth ship that emits no EM, IR, UV, or light. No substance on earth can 100% absorb these wave lengths, in fact stealth here on earth is not fool proof either. The systems on the stealth bomber and the f22 are there to reduce the radar cross section not nullify it entirely. The only way that i can think of that you can become 100% invisible on these spectrum is to be a black hole, and even then you would be giving off massive amounts of gama. Spartwo has the most practical idea and it can even be done in ksp. Camouflage. Be a rock, you are a rock, the rocks and you are one.

[camulus777]

Ah I've seen this space blog before. nyrath and I would agree on just about every point except the "space fighter", it is very cost effective to have a group of smaller ships launched from a larger ship. It's a matter of number of shots not mass. I have 12 fighters each with 6 missiles you have a battleship with 100 missiles. takes one missile to kill each fighter and one missile to kill the battleship. As long as you are using a platform system for propulsion then you are just as effective if not more so. I will stand by the effectiveness of the small ship carrier platform . Its not a fighter carrier like Battlestar Galactica but it serves a similar function.

These facts are even more so in KSP with no targeting systems lol. If your too small to hit who needs armor.

[Spartwo]

As a proof of concept lets play spot the ship which can kill you

It probably will only work with small fighters

[Sliinty]

As a proof of concept lets play spot the ship which can kill you

It probably will only work with small fighters

but thats ksp, which is not exactly the same as real life

whats to stop me pew pewing all three?

[Spartwo]

why would you blow up debris?And the thread has KSP in the title otherwise it belongs elsewhere.

[Sliinty]

why would you blow up debris?And the thread has KSP in the title otherwise it belongs elsewhere.

Because we were talking about realistic situations (or at least I was )

I guess you could name them "XYZ ship probe probe probe probe" that would probably throw me off the scent lol.