Resources

[jamille4]

Some of you may remember that around the time of the release of version .19 (April to be precise), there was a bit of an uproar over potential DLC/expansions. The guys at Squad quickly cleared up the confusion, and all was forgiven. Not much else has even been said about post-release content since it is so far down the road. Everyone moved on with their lives and eagerly began looking forward to the next release, version .20.

At this point, version .20 was still planned to be the update that would lay the groundwork for the implementation of resources collection and utilization. Screenshots were released of UI's showing how much of a given resource was on a body. We even had the resource chart visualizing what all resources would be in the game, how they would interact, etc. I won't re-post it here since the devs have said that so much about resources has changed since that chart was released as to make it nearly irrelevant. Suffice it to say, the community was pretty pumped about finally getting one of the most requested features for KSP.

Incidentally, around the same time that the clarification was made on DLC, the decision was made public that resources would not be in version .20. The devs had decided to shift their focus to implementing career mode in order to avoid a situation like Minecraft where, for a long time, the dev team for that game endlessly added features to the sandbox without ever getting closer to a finished product or even having an idea of what a finished product would look like. I believe that releasing KSP on Steam also put some pressure on Squad to have a clear end in sight and work aggressively towards finishing the game.

I have a working hypothesis that these two events (the discussion about DLC and the decision to postpone resources indefinitely) are directly related. I can't find specific posts to cite, but I distinctly remember one of the reasons given for cutting resources from the next few updates was to focus on the essential aspects of what they thought the game should be about, or something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing because, again, [citation needed]. I have a feeling that somewhere along the way, it was decided that mining planets for resources should not and would not be one of these core features, and that the entire concept would be put on hold until after the game was released.

I am fine with this decision, if indeed it has been made. I am curious, however, to know what you all think about it. Am I wrong completely, and seeing connections where there are none? What possibly could have prompted the discussion of DLC if indeed some had not been seriously talked about among the devs? Was the decision to focus on career mode over resources a mistake, in your opinion? Would you be disappointed if resources were not part of the initial release? Are resources an integral part of the game that need to be implemented before version 1.0? Any other comments you have on the subject are appreciated.

[Nachtwind]

Well... Correlation is not causality. Check the following statistics: Since the pirates vanished from the caribean earth got warmer. So if we introduce new pirates to the caribean islands will earth become colder?

The decision to not include resources into the game for a while still has, as far as i understand it, more to do with the fact that the game has to be prepared for the introduction of such features.

In .18 multiple resources were introduced like Liquid fuel and oxidizer. First step done. Furthermore parts were changed to allow any kind of "resource" to take. Electricity is another example for that. Later rovers were introduced along with sensors etc.

So the _very_ "basics" are done. You have sensors to find stuff (possibly still, but nevertheless its easily programmable now). You have rovers as mobile platforms and you have the means to transport resources.

I think that a system like Kethane could be implemented with those prerequisits. But why doing it? Kethane is a great mod. Any feature added to the game to mimic it would just do that: mimic it. There would be no further extension NOW to what Kethane already does.

The major trend on development is currently the career mode as career should be heavily depending on resources. So - jsut imagine for a second - you would have to get a certain element for R&D, you need uranium for RTGs or silicates for improving SAS. Oxygen, Methane, etc for creating fueles... endless opportuneties. But you need to have a start. And that would be implementing R&D... and maybe career as you could sell material to get funds..

Then, and imho only then, a built in resource system could be superior to what Kethane adds to the game. And therefore worth to code.

Long story short:

I would just be patient. The game is at version .21 right now. Thats a long way from the big 1.0 AND possible DLCs. Also decisions on the staff seem to change often and swift, so its hard to always follow the way the devs think.. but normally, if you try to, you end up seeing that the path they walk down makes sense.

A shameless self ad: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/45945-The-evolution-of-KSP

I try to put new features into bigger context. Maybe that helps to see why some stuff has to be done before other things might work.

[Beeman]

I vaguely remember some comments and certainly lots of rumors about the resources system. Apparently they thought this was a little too complex for people. It honestly isn't. I've said it before, all they'd need to do is introduce just a couple elements at a time so we can wrap our heads around them THEN lay the mining and processing down on us in a similar fashion. Or something like that. It'd be easy with their tech tree madness that they've got planned. They could even add more complexity to the system and as long as they took us through it at a gradual rate via career mode...it would be perfectly fine.

That said, I feel that they might actually hold off on releasing those systems for an expansion after KSP1.0 is released. Of course, that's all based on what they said. Those features will be huge and game changing, almost like an entirely new game in itself, so that would really fit the definition that they laid out for expansions or DLC. What they feel those things should be. They might even add deep colonization to that expansion to make it even more substantial.

Hmm...at the same time, I think that they might not do expansions after all. I mean, it made a LOT of people angry. On the flip side to that, they did guarantee that anyone who purchased the game before the end of april were guaranteed all future updates and expansions for free.

I honestly don't know what they're planning. What they're going to do. But I got the game right in the middle...or near the end of April, I think. On Steam, so I'd honestly be okay either way XD

I also feel that they kind of deserve the right to put out an expansion like that. Or rather, to hold resource prospecting, collecting, mining and deep colonization for an expansion. Maybe they'll hold off FTL and that whole other star systems thing for an expansion, too! I really wouldn't mind that, though if I hadn't gotten the game before the end of April I wouldn't really be able to afford those expansions, unless they offered a compilation at a steep discount or something. I don't know, but I do know that they put a lot of thought into each and every update and every major feature so I feel that they deserve a little extra reward for doing so. If I had the money for it, I'd buy KSP for all of my friends, even the ones that wouldn't necessarily play it just so that SQUAD could have a little extra cash for their efforts. They're certainly treating us better than most publishers and developers who put out sixty dollar games. So they deserve a little somethin' on top of their already really positive reputation and their undoubtedly substantial payout from sales thusfar.

[Nachtwind]

That said, I feel that they might actually hold off on releasing those systems for an expansion after KSP1.0 is released. Of course, that's all based on what they said. Those features will be huge and game changing, almost like an entirely new game in itself, so that would really fit the definition that they laid out for expansions or DLC. What they feel those things should be. They might even add deep colonization to that expansion to make it even more substantial.

You might argue the same way about Career mode, (space)Planes, Modding ability or pretty much every feature that is planned up until 1.0.

Every major feature that will be introduced will be, sort of, game changing. Just remember - KSP is roughly 1/5th of the way to a final version! And some changes just need preparation. Take, for example, the evolution of rovers. SQUAD started with this Plane-like wheel, added in a later update brakes to it and then probe bodies and later still the rover chassis/bodies. Where would have been the benefit to have a rover chassis without wheels? Or reaction wheels without SAS functionality? Spaceplanes without a drag model?

Take it as evolution: You dont have "No Eye" and then a fully evolved "Hawk eye" - more importantly you dont have "Half an eye" in between. Every step inbetween, as small and as insignificant it seems, serves a purpose to the final result. Same is for features - there would be no use for just some halfhearted attempt on resources as long as better solutions are available through the modding community. Therefore the preparations have to be done to create something bigger and better that will then just be "done" at some point.

Like i said, finding fuel and using it to fly arround is simple as you can install kethane. But if you need uranium to develop (SQUAD needs to program R&D first) RTGs (QUAD had to develop "electricity" as fuel first), Element Zero for Heat Shields (SQUAD has to develop reentry effects first) or metal to build fairing (Fairings had to be programmed first, the VAB has to work, you need Money or funds (has to be programmed...) and THEN you can have a resource system superior to what mods provide.

[leax256]

You might argue the same way about Career mode, (space)Planes, Modding ability or pretty much every feature that is planned up until 1.0. ...

tis why I take what I get and don't complain...well said.

[Beeman]

You might argue the same way about Career mode, ...

You actually couldn't say that about career mode because...as I understand it, career mode has been the goal of KSP from the get-go. But sandbox was required to get the core gameplay mechanics(building, launching rockets and doing things in space) up and running and well tested.

What we can almost certainly expect KSP1.0 to contain is at least everything that modern space programs are capable of. Missions that have already flown and been successful. That includes probes, minimalistic manned missions, rovers, spaceplanes/shuttles(only because they're already in the game), station building, telescopes and other such things with all the great career mode goodies layered on top of all that. I mean, we already have just about all the parts we need to make KSP a playable game with an engaging career mode...and you can expect career mode to feel grand and compelling like a tycoon game, which has been said to be the ultimate goal of KSP's career mode. How they'll change that as they actually develop it is beyond me, but I'm excited either way.

All we really need from this point on is career mode stuff. Granted, we know that they've got at least one year left of development time given their own estimates plus a few months 'cause you can never predict how long it's going to take to iron out some things. But they only really need a few more major patches and they could release KSP as a full-on game. They've almost got R&D in the bag, we just need currency, missions, the full-on knowledgebase, lots more sciency bits, hopefully life support and other such career-only mechanics. Everything else is icing on top and could very well be left off for expansions...and all I was saying was that I'd personally be okay with that.

Yes, I would obviously prefer much more complex systems in the vanilla game, I even mentioned that I'd like to see more resources than what they showed in that flow chart. Things like different metals for part construction or rare elements/metals that you could deliver back to KSC for straight income and little else, if anything. I'd love to see all kinds of fun mechanics creep their way into the vanilla game but there's no telling what they're going to do because talking about expansions made a lot of people angry...but they honestly felt like that would be the best option for them to ensure that KSP finally gets finished.

We all love KSP very much so and only want to see the vanilla experience expand and expand, but there's got to be a limit for KSP1.0 and I feel like that's all they were feeling when they talked about expansions and/or DLC stuff. But what they're almost guaranteed to implement is all the stuff that KSP was intended to do in the first place...which is to provide a space program simulation/tycoon experience that all sorts of people can enjoy and might actually make people learn a thing or two about space.

[Nachtwind]

As this discussion seems to be about you convincing me that SQUAD will add resources in a DLC and me about convincing you that SQUAD will release resources in the vanilla game i can only quote HAL9000:

"Beeman, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore."

[Beeman]

Not at all, my opinion is that it doesn't matter what they do. They have reason to go either way on the matter ;P

That's it. That's all I've said. So thumbs up to them for whichever development route they decide XD