Mars voyage hibernation

[Captain Sierra]

So I found this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/incredible-technology-astronauts-could-hibernate-mars-voyage-215918203.html

Thought it was quite cool (, read it and you'll see what I did there).

Anyways, I figured if there is any group of people that can apreciate it (or not since Kerbals obviously don't need to breathe ), it's the KSP community.

Read, share thoughts, discuss away!

[Scotius]

Yeah, very Kerbal indeed. Instead of developing better, faster engines to cut travel times to safe periods, lets stick astronauts into refrigerators. There is no way someting is gonna go wrong with this.

[znode]

Well, why not both? The field of bioastronautics has to develop sometime. Hibernation may not be "needed" for Mars, surely it's going to be needed for farther interstellar travel at some point.

[Thaniel]

Absolutely interesting. While this kind of idea, with slowed metabolic rates have been suggested before, I believe this is the first time it´s being done some serious science on the topic intended for space application. With this, building a small donut-shaped protected centrifuge with space for 15-20 astronauts, and a couple of inflatable hab units for when they arrive at the red planet, sounds plausible. While a base with that many astronauts would probably need a decent amount of supplies, such things can be launched in advance on very slow trajectories anyway. And having a relatively large crew like that would significantly lower while at mars, since there can be multiple specialists on key topics. For instance, two doctors instead of just one increases the likelyhood that an incident won´t rob the expedition of one of them. Another possibilitiy here, is the possible significantly lower prise per person to ship to faraway places.Another thing, if they can manage to work this out, and make it available in a modulised form, it might be an option if for some reason, supplies run low, and it´s months until the next possibility for resuply is at hand. A stranded or based crew could enter hibernation to conserve supplies. It´s another option for some cases atleast.Exciting anyway you look at it, if this fans out.

[czokletmuss]

Thought experiment:

1. Fall asleep and don't move for 6 months.

2. Survive landing (few Gs expected)

3. Work - hard manual labour at lest 5-6 hours a day for a month

4. Fall asleep again for a 6 months

5. Survive reentry (several Gs)

6. Hospitalization

I don't think it's a good idea at all. There is too much variables and we don't really now anything about long term hibernation, as well as we don't know anything about long term microgravity effects and deep space manned travel. Combining those two is impossible right now.

Edited September 5, 2013 by czokletmuss

[Scotius]

We are not bears. Human body is not meant to hibernate. That's why patients awakened from extended periods of coma need therapy and physical rehabilitation. Even with slowed metabolism, being unconscious for a year or more will have consequences for astronauts. Who will get them back in shape when they reach Mars? And what if some kind of accident happens halfway through slow Hohmann transfer? "Normal" crew can react immediately, but what a rack of popsicles needing hours or days to revive will do? Some crewmembers can stay awake keeping watch, but it will partially defeat whole idea of conserving supplies. Sure, it would be viable if we'd want to send a hundred or two of frozen colonists in huge refrigerator ship manned by a handful of crew. But by the time we'll be able to build such ships (and build colonies in space), we'll have engines allowing for fast transfers. No, better give those money to the teams working on fusion and nuclear engines.

[lajoswinkler]

It is an interesting idea, but it would take a lot of work to develop. It might even be impossible without genetic modification of humans.

[Diche Bach]

They have been putting lab animals into varying degrees of cyronic chilling for decades. The quickest thing I could find and it is from 1987.

Whacked out ideas of sending people to a desolate irradiated hellhole in space with no seeming reason other than to say "we did it" . . . the real benefit of these technologies is going to be in saving lives after traumatic accidents.

In June 2005 scientists at the University of Pittsburgh's Safar Center for Resuscitation Research announced they had managed to place dogs in suspended animation and bring them back to life, most of them without brain damage, by draining the blood out of the dogs' bodies and injecting a low temperature solution into their circulatory systems, which in turn keeps the bodies alive in stasis. After three hours of being clinically dead, the dogs' blood was returned to their circulatory systems, and the animals were revived by delivering an electric shock to their hearts. The heart started pumping the blood around the frozen body, and the dogs were brought back to life.[3]

On 20 January 2006, doctors from the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston announced they had placed pigs in suspended animation with a similar technique. The pigs were anaesthetized and major blood loss was induced, along with simulated - via scalpel - severe injuries (e.g. a punctured aorta as might happen in a car accident or shooting). After the pigs lost about half their blood the remaining blood was replaced with a chilled saline solution. As the body temperature reached 10 °C (50 °F) the damaged blood vessel was repaired and the blood was returned.[4] The method was tested 200 times with a 90% success rate.[5]

[Moon Goddess]

We're going to have to successfully hibernate humans on earth quite a bit before we try it in space

You don't experiment on the way to mars.

[Albert VDS]

I don't think it's a good idea at all. There is too much variables and we don't really now anything about long term hibernation, as well as we don't know anything about long term microgravity effects and deep space manned travel. Combining those two is impossible right now.

The article is about investigating ways to induce hibernation states in astronauts. If they figure that out then the next step would be if it's safe and feasible to put an astronaut in an hibernative state.

We are not bears. Human body is not meant to hibernate. That's why patients awakened from extended periods of coma need therapy and physical rehabilitation. Even with slowed metabolism, being unconscious for a year or more will have consequences for astronauts. Who will get them back in shape when they reach Mars? And what if some kind of accident happens halfway through slow Hohmann transfer? "Normal" crew can react immediately, but what a rack of popsicles needing hours or days to revive will do? Some crewmembers can stay awake keeping watch, but it will partially defeat whole idea of conserving supplies. Sure, it would be viable if we'd want to send a hundred or two of frozen colonists in huge refrigerator ship manned by a handful of crew. But by the time we'll be able to build such ships (and build colonies in space), we'll have engines allowing for fast transfers. No, better give those money to the teams working on fusion and nuclear engines.

Of course we are not bears, but we are closer related to them then you might think. The closest the human body can come to hibernation is through sleep, meditation and starvation, all states in which slows down energy consumption. Being in a coma is more like being dead than than sleeping or even hibernation. Your just guessing that they would need to rehabilitate after a 6 month sleep/hibernation, if they can induce hibernative state then I think that's the first thing they would test. Another thing, they never mentioned they were going to freeze the astronauts, in fact they said: "We're not freezing anybody. It's not cryopreservation; it's closer to hibernation,"

[Kryten]

Your just guessing that they would need to rehabilitate after a 6 month sleep/hibernation...

Muscles atrophy. Over six months without any form of exercise at all (given you're talking use on a spaceship here, there isn't even gravity), the muscles are effectively going to be gone.

[Matokage]

Did you even read the article?

While long-term space hibernation could solve a number of problems, it would also pose some challenges of its own. For example, hibernating astronauts would obviously not be able to keep bone loss and muscle degeneration at bay by exercising, as crewmembers aboard the International Space Station do.

The NIAC study is looking into how to mitigate this issue. One possible solution is to induce artificial gravity by spinning the spacecraft, Bradford said  a strategy that could be made even more effective by the astronauts' unresponsive state.

"Typically, you have to have these very slow rotation rates, because spinning too fast makes people sick," he said. (Rotation rate dictates the magnitude of the induced gravitational force.) "Because they're not conscious, they obviously won't be susceptible to disorientation, and we think we can actually put them on a much faster rotation."

The team is also looking to the animal world for ideas and inspiration.

"There's a lot of research on black bears  they hibernate for five or seven months, and they experience very little muscle atrophy," Bradford said. Scientists "are trying to understand why that is. Are body processes tricking the muscles into thinking they're active? So we're looking at that."

[Kryten]

Artificial gravity won't help much. Just look what natural gravity does for coma victims.

[Albert VDS]

Being in a coma isn't the same as hibernation.

[Kryten]

It's a persistent state of profound unconsciousness. The difference is pretty much semantic, at least with the kinds of 'hibernation' you're talking about here.

[Albert VDS]

It's a persistent state of profound unconsciousness. It also includes the lack of responsiveness to external stimuli and the person in a coma can't be awakened.

There's also less brain activity, of course, depending on how server the coma is.

I haven't mentioned a specific for hibernation. Their are quite a few different forms of hibernation, something like the hibernative state of a bear is something which you would want for an astronaut.

[Kryten]

It's a persistent state of profound unconsciousness. It also includes the lack of responsiveness to external stimuli and the person in a coma can't be awakened.

Neither of which are at all relevant to physical effects, which is what you're talking about here. As I said, semantics.

[Diche Bach]

People who don't move for weeks and months suffer various forms of harm (including muscle atrophy). Doesn't matter if they are in a coma in Earth gravity or hibernating in a spinning torus of a space ship.

The idea of "mitigating" this is difficult to imagine. What are they planning to do, attach several thousands of electrodes to the astronauts to stimulate muscle contractions?

These things are _very_interesting; I think those of us who are expressing skepticism are just trying to point out that, there is a lot of time and effort and probably a certain amount of luck, not to mention economic investment (which is always questionable) before this stuff really becomes prototype applicable to space travel. Makes me agree with the person who said up above "give the money to propulsion and power system research." The greatest obstacle right now is getting out of Earth's gravity well cheaply, and until solutions to that problem are found, stuff like this will remain largely useless for economic and pragmatic reasons.

[Albert VDS]

So what you are saying is: Hibernation is like a coma, there for it has the same negative effect on the body.

I hope those NASA-funded scientist wont follow the same logic.

[Kryten]

So what you are saying is: Hibernation is like a coma, there for it has the same negative effect on the body. I hope those NASA-funded scientist wont follow the same logic.

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. People in comas suffer severe health effects due to lack of movement over long periods of time, ranging from pneumonia to thrombosis to severe muscle wasting. People in your hypothetical low-metabolism 'hibernating' state would also show lack of movement for long periods of time. Do you have any remotely plausible mechanism whereby the same effects wouldn't occur?

[Scotius]

And stimulating muscles via electrodes wouldn't work. Oh, yes - probably it would help with muscle deterioration. But working muscles require oxygen and nourishment. There's also waste products to remove - which requires heightened circulation, which is hard to get when metabolism is working at 10% or so. Again - it defeats "conserve the supplies" mantra. I suspect putting people in hibernation will be much easier than keeping them hibernated in reasonably good health.

[Diche Bach]

So what you are saying is: Hibernation is like a coma, there for it has the same negative effect on the body.

I hope those NASA-funded scientist wont follow the same logic.

The idea that the mechanisms or causes of hibernation and coma may or may not be the same is not the point Kryten and I are arguing. Both hibernation or a coma (and possibly cryogenic freezing) involve a person not moving for long periods of time = (ostensibly) the various ill health effects that he describes.

A number of animals are able to spend long durations in a state of torpor or hibernation (bats, bears, various rodents, even some primates) and obviously the fact that they emerge from these states to engage in physical activity and apparently even thrive indicates that it is possible for an endotherm to experience these sorts of 'dormant' states and recover. The idea that methods to induce such things in humans that avert the negative consequences might eventually be achieved is not beyond comprehension. But the points of concern about things like muscle atrophy are ones that must be addressed.

[Thaniel]

So instead of figuring out if we can do this, sucessfully, we should rather just forget about it and focus on something completely different instead of expanding our possibilities? That's rather naive I say.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561945. Just a little something about using electricity to counter muscle atrophy, wich showed descent results.Another thing, what about plastics? If someone thought "Naaw, this will just be flamable, we can't use that for anythingusefull, let's not research this and spend all our money on cast iron instead". The net result? Any goernment support in developing the material would have come from private research, wich could take forever. So what if induced hibernation won't make it into spaceflight within 20 years, chances are that it would prove a valuable tool for other areas of society, and quite possibly help to get more funding into space-related research in the future. Investing into space-related hibernation for humans now may very well be returned a hundred-fold in 20 years into other more direct projects. Expanding the base of knowledge, finding options and possibilities early on is worth much more than adding half a percent to a couple of propulsion developement projects.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Thaniel

[Captain Sierra]

Why thank you Thaniel.

Back on topic, and for those of you who didn't take the time to read the article (I think I see at least 3 people who are arguing over stuff the article exclusively mentioned), Hibernation does not equal coma. Coma is 100% unresponsive. The hind of hypothermic hibernation they plan to induce is much less dead. You could be woken up from that state in a few hours easy.

Also, this has been used as a medical procedure, but due to the low requirement to hibernate people, the record is only 10 days. There is research being done to see if they can go 1-2 months and what it will do. Based on data from the 10 day patient, if I recall the article correctly, it said that muscle loss was noticeably less than it would have been if in a coma. This of course was an earth based test and does not account for exacerbation of the issue by mirogravity.

[m1xte]

People who don't move for weeks and months suffer various forms of harm (including muscle atrophy). Doesn't matter if they are in a coma in Earth gravity or hibernating in a spinning torus of a space ship.

It matters quite a lot if body temperature has been lowered 10 degrees which slows everything down 50-70% even atrophy.