Universal Resources: Because Kethane is too Easy!

[Jahulath]

So like I got home and made a drill. Awesome it is not but the basic shape will work and I can texture that easily enough with a normal map for some more detail...

and there's more than one way to skin a cat too.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Jahulath

[nothke]

I like the mod's idea, and I really like that you added nitrogen. although I'd lobby for the nitrogen color to be purple, cause it's its burning color and is most commonly colored with purple in chemistry papers.

Nitrogen also opens the ground for producing coolers (liquid nitrogen) or if combined with hydrogen - as ammonia also for heat management systems. Also it can be used for creating realistic cabin atmospheres (not just pure oxygen ones)

Edited October 1, 2013 by nothke

[Mekan1k]

I like the mod's idea, and I really like that you added nitrogen. although I'd lobby for the nitrogen color to be purple, cause it's its burning color and is most commonly colored with purple in chemistry papers.

Nitrogen also opens the ground for producing coolers (liquid nitrogen) or if combined with hydrogen - as ammonia also for heat management systems. Also it can be used for creating realistic cabin atmospheres (not just pure oxygen ones)

It would also give us an idea of what Eve's atmosphere is made of...

[Scotius]

Is it me, or is this drill looking steampunk-ish? Cool part nonetheless

[mushroomman]

I made a pump (with a very very simple model) that knows when its in the Water and i makes some res. (e.g. Water on kerbin Propllant on Eve) dependet on the planet its on. You mount it on a KAS winch and eject it into the see basicly.

Could be an idea for this one!

I also made the LV-N toggleable between liquid fuel and "Bluetonium" with having it have slighly more thrust with it.

Its nuclear so it should use it, but make it need it would make it unusable.

Also, if you incorperate TAC's res we would have a full livesupport/resource System!

Water is allready in.

CO2 could be in some water or in the Athmosphere.

Food is a bit more complicated.

As you see your not the frst one with this idea

I would definitely appreciate the pump, but I don't really need any of the other stuff. I'd really appreciate it.

So like I got home and made a drill. Awesome it is not but the basic shape will work and I can texture that easily enough with a normal map for some more detail...

and there's more than one way to skin a cat too.

If you send that to me, I can release a beta. Hint hint.

Also, maybe I will turn nitrogen purple. Yellow just came into mind for me first.

Ah crap I wanted to make a mod like this, knew I shouldn't have waited

Well you still can! Lord knows you'd do a better job then me :3

Edited October 1, 2013 by mushroomman

[NovaSilisko]

I thought they were waiting on you to make a stock like this...

Waiting on me? Nothing's waiting on me, it was dictated months ago that resources be put on hold until career mode is mostly done.

[Moon Goddess]

Waiting on me? Nothing's waiting on me, it was dictated months ago that resources be put on hold until career mode is mostly done.

I know, sorry teasing doesn't come across well in internet.

[Geckgo]

I want to help on this project for several reasons. I just got a pi and started learning python programming and been playing with linux for almost a year now nonstop (SOO glad to be rid of windows for good). I haven't programmed anything in over a decade, and I just started in with blender a week ago, though there is a bug in the linux version so I would need to ship my .blend files to someone else or export for another program to put the images in game.

I've been nervy about Kethane from the start cause one resource is silly. Is there a way that we can contact the makers of MapSAT and Kethane and bring them in on this?? Looking for "anomalies" from space and them mining them would be awesome.

Also, a tidbit on mining from someone who works on drilling rigs: We should make it possible to have the drilling platform as one unit and use other parts for production, just as in the production of water, hydrocarbons, sulphur, and anything else drilled for on earth. A drilling rig just punches the hole and sets the wellhead. Seperate facilities are needed for production and refining. I think the refining part everyone understands, but production involves hooking up some kind of pumping or pipeline system to the wellhead (and frac-ing to increase production). Wells also don't last forever, they have a limited life expectancy, so production declines like 1/t^2 or something similar for each well. In the hydrocarbon market it takes 5-10 years before production is decreased significantly, after which frac-ing can sometimes free up extra resources. Drilling rigs require fluid (gas or liquid) that needs to be pumped and recycled to bring up the rock cuttings, that might be something to look into. Then you could "skid" your drilling rig over 50-100m and drill another hole (in real life they can be within 20 feet of eachother with horizontal drilling, but that is probably getting too involved).

To cut it short, I suggest a drilling platform to drill the well and put a wellhead on it, then connect a collection system to the wellhead (KAS would be good here, if it didn't have the bug where connected parts tip over), and refine the raw material either in space or on the surface. The drilling platform can be drilling another well while you are setting up production on the first and refining in the background. Raw materials would be needed to make new wellheads and pump-jacks (or whatever kind of pumping system you like). Seems complicated but the process is really very simple once you get it.

For solid resource harvesting, a dedicated collection bot could roam the site (now I'm getting complicated, I know, but we can figure out a way to simplify it) and collect stuff like iron ore on duna or rare metals on other sites.

Unfortunately, I don't know what I can help with at the moment. But I'm trying to learn again and I'm interested in this project, so if someone can help me with the finer parts I'd be more than happy to throw some time at this when I get it.

[regex]

I've been nervy about Kethane from the start cause one resource is silly. Is there a way that we can contact the makers of MapSAT and Kethane and bring them in on this??

Why would you need to bring Majiir in on this mod? OP is already using the Kethane API to make it.

[Geckgo]

Why would you need to bring Majiir in on this mod? OP is already using the Kethane API to make it.

He wrote the mapping algorithm. Maybe he would be willing to do mapping for other resources. At a minimum you would need his permission (I assume) to re-use his code. Might as well have him jump on board and make this better. This sounds like a replacement for Kethane. Just the way I think. If people consolodate then we could have some kick-*** mods.

[regex]

He wrote the mapping algorithm. Maybe he would be willing to do mapping for other resources. At a minimum you would need his permission (I assume) to re-use his code. Might as well have him jump on board and make this better. This sounds like a replacement for Kethane. Just the way I think. If people consolodate then we could have some kick-*** mods.

Majiir wrote an API into Kethane. An API provides hooks for other programmers to use the code without incorporating it into their own. That means that new resources defined by this mod can use Kethane's functions and part modules. For instance, if you define Oxygen in a manner that Kethane can recognize, you can then define scanners, drills, and converters for Oxygen using Kethane code without "stealing" Kethane and without needing Majiir's permission (since nothing is taken from Kethane). This mod will require Kethane to be installed in order to run, but there is no extra code that needs to be written unless OP has something different in mind.

[Geckgo]

I stand corrected. I'm new to all the legal stuff, sorry. I still think that consolidation would be a good idea though. People of various skill-sets working on one mod together could prove valuable.

[mushroomman]

I PMed Majiir earlier with some questions, but I don't really want to him into this. Sure it would be better that way, but I kind of doubt he would go along with it.

As for all of that complicated IRL drilling stuff, the only thing in there that's possible without a tonne of plugin stuff would be the fluid for the rock cuttings. That would be very easy to do (and I may even consider it). But I think everything else would just be too much work. Both to make and to use in-game. I don't think it would be worth it. Though I do like the idea.

I've been trying to throw together some stock re-sizes and re-textures, as well as a few things from the Part Generator to get a beta ready. I can't quite get the drill to work (it's just a re-sized antenna ) but everything else is going well and I think I could release a very early beta somewhat soonish.

[Majiir]

He wrote the mapping algorithm.

I didn't write the legacy deposit algorithm, but I am writing new ones which will hopefully make it into Kethane 0.8.

...without needing Majiir's permission (since nothing is taken from Kethane).

Parts of Kethane can be used because the license explicitly allows it. What matters is whether Kethane is used, not whether something is "taken" from it.

[Geckgo]

Sweet, if I figure out anything cool in blender you will be the first person I tell, mushroomman. I think using KAS would provide an easy way of making pump-jacks or some type of pumping station as an intermediate part, but not sure. Might be worth giving him a ring, so you could have one "rig" drilling a bunch of holes (i.e. drop part wellhead) and then attach pumps to the wellheads to "refine" the stuff into usable resources.....

hmmm...

now that I put it like that, it sounds rather complex. Just food for thought though.

,cheers

[regex]

Parts of Kethane can be used because the license explicitly allows it.

Right. Isn't that the whole point of writing an API into your plugin and documenting it on your wiki?

[Majiir]

Right. Isn't that the whole point of writing an API into your plugin and documenting it on your wiki?

Yes. I just wanted to clarify the point because what you wrote implies you can use mods however you like as long as you're not "taking" anything.

By the way: Kethane won't be a single-resource mod forever. There's been some discussion (mostly in #kspmodders) about building a resource system around Kethane, Extraplanetary Launchpads and potentially some new resource management code. That said, little work has gone into that so I wouldn't expect anything too soon.

[rhoark]

To be honest, despite the existence of the API, the Kethane license seems to be written with a subtext of "go away, we don't want your grubby hands touching our stuff." One of the main reasons I didn't pick up the Kethane API to work on the plan I posted earlier is the first step would be modifying the base install to remove the kethane resource, which doesn't seem to be permitted.

[Moon Goddess]

That's an issue that I ran into as well. I wouldn't be as hard as

the Kethane license seems to be written with a subtext of "go away, we don't want your grubby hands touching our stuff."

but the fact that there is no easy way to remove the kethane resource makes adding any more realistic resources pointless because Kethane will always be better.

[regex]

but the fact that there is no easy way to remove the kethane resource makes adding any more realistic resources pointless because Kethane will always be better.

People who want a more realistic mod will download a more realistic mod. If the license prevents you from programmatically deleting the Kethane resource, then you should instruct your users in how to remove it and the associated parts themselves.

E: You could also read the license again and find the "pretty please" clause if you're so inclined.

Edited October 2, 2013 by regex

[brecers]

Very interesting idea of multiple resources .....I think to develop the idea.

[Jahulath]

That's an issue that I ran into as well. I wouldn't be as hard as

but the fact that there is no easy way to remove the kethane resource makes adding any more realistic resources pointless because Kethane will always be better.

Please explain, I don't think I understand - the drill specifies Kethane as it's product and the fuel thingy specifies it as a resource to use. Does that not mean that, if one only use the Kethane code but have their own parts and configs, that Kethane is defacto removed from the game? I see that you will be able to see it in the "resources to scan for" window but what are you gonna drill it with or store it with or use to process it

[regex]

Please explain, I don't think I understand - the drill specifies Kethane as it's product and the fuel thingy specifies it as a resource to use. Does that not mean that, if one only use the Kethane code but have their own parts and configs, that Kethane is defacto removed from the game? I see that you will be able to see it in the "resources to scan for" window but what are you gonna drill it with or store it with or use to process it

The Kethane license specifically prevents you from doing the following:

• Distribute unmodified versions of Kethane, in part or whole.
  
• Distribute modified versions of Kethane, in part or whole, including the packaged models, textures, plugins, part configurations and any other component, with exception of plugin source code.

Therefore, Kethane must be installed alongside any mod that uses it as a plugin. In addition:

• Distribute a byte patch or other difference file or patcher intended to modify Kethane files without directly distributing them.

prevents you from distributing a batch file or something to remove Kethane files automatically, or even a ModuleManager config (E: Actually this is debatable since the modifications happen during loading and don't modify files). The user, of course, can do pretty much whatever the hell they want provided that it is all kept on their computer/no one knows (Kethane allows this by license, but it's pretty much implied), so there isn't anything preventing you from informing your users how to delete files (thus removing Kethane and Kethane gear from their game in favor of your resources/parts) once they've installed Kethane from the normal downloading area.
E: And, again, I point to the "pretty please" clause under the "You May" heading:

• Request a waiver of any of these terms.

Edited October 2, 2013 by regex

[mushroomman]

Kethane is definitely one of the pickier mods when it comes to re-distributing content. But they put a lot of effort into it so it's kind of warranted. Ideally I would altogether remove the resource for use in this mod, but I know that's impossible so I'd just suggest that anyone who doesn't want it delete the parts and pretend it's not there.

I'd suggest we just put this topic to bed now and move on.

[Beowolf]

Fake element names are winning in the poll? I haz a sad now.