Flying around on the Mun

[ThirdHorseman]

So I have a few bases set up on the Mun, and I'm looking for a good way to move supplies/Kerbals from place-to-place. I'm want to avoid ground transport via rovers, because it's too wonky and slow.

Is the best method to go sub-orbital in a modified lander (go up high, get a nice parabola, and then come down at your destination)? Or is it better to create some kind of shuttle, that will go horizontal after getting to a certain altitude (say 4-5km)?

If there was an atmosphere I'd make a plane, or something with lifting parts. Plus the jet engines are way better with fuel consumption. But on a moon with no atmo I'm not sure what the best way is to travel long distances. Some of my bases are very far apart, so I find myself using a ton of fuel in the designs I have tried so far.

Any thoughts? Thanks all!

[Sirine]

My "Pentagon" can do the Mun transport. And my Ultimate Rover I (+Flight) (weird name, I know), can do Kerbin atmosphere Looooong distance heavy cargo transport.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50559-Serial-Multiplayer-Space-Program-Stock-Kethane?p=662766&viewfull=1#post662766

[9911MU51C]

I'd suggest using nuclear engines, the low gravity and no atmosphere makes them work well for lifting

[-Velocity-]

Use nuclear engines to do sub-orbital hops. My low gravity nuclear rover has 5800 m/s delta-V. Pretty much, I just use it to fly around on low gravity worlds with no atmospheres... though it is technically a rover, it spends most of its exploration time on suborbital trajectories.

[Geschosskopf]

@ ThirdHorseman:

Both methods (suborbital hops and "flying") present their own difficulties. I've never had much luck with either. I find it easier just to go to orbit, then land again from there.

The suborbital hop, if done perfectly, would probably be the cheapest on fuel. However, you have to guestimate how much to lead the target, which takes practice. And you have to get the hopper properly oriented to make an accurate "gravity turn" immediately upon leaving the ground. And then you have to pitch over just the right amount and burn just the right amount so that your gestimation of required lead turns out to be rght. If you arc too high, you fly longer so the target moves more. And being just a few hairs off at point in the launch process will put you miles off target. So, you'll most likely have to proceed in a series of short hops instead of trying to do it all at once, each time, risking landing on too steep an incline or at least on one that causes even more difficulties getting heading the right way when launching the next hop. All this adds up to a lot of fuel and frustration.

I find that hoverers are a LOT easier to get going in the right direction, especially because you can more easily steer them once you get moving. However, Mun's gravity is enough to require pretty substantial upwards thrust pretty much continuously, which either means short trips or a rather bigger thing than the job really calls for.

This is why I just say screw it and go direct to orbit in whatever direction the hopper's facing on whatever hillside it starts from. Odds are, your destination isn't at the same latitude as where you start so you actually want an inclined orbit. So, just wait a few orbits until your target is in the right place relative to your flightpath so you lead it correctly during your descent, deorbit, and land like normal. This just seems much easier and stree-free compare to the other methods.

[Tw1]

So I have a few bases set up on the Mun, and I'm looking for a good way to move supplies/Kerbals from place-to-place. I'm want to avoid ground transport via rovers, because it's too wonky and slow.

!

How patent are you?

[Geschosskopf]

How patent are you?

That's cool but it I doubt it would work for what the OP wants. If his bases are close enough together to link with the train (does the 2.5km limit apply?), he can much more easily drive in a rover. Besides, there's no earthmoving equipment in the game, so there's no way to cut gaps in crater rims or fill in crater depressions .

[Tw1]

That's cool but it I doubt it would work for what the OP wants. If his bases are close enough together to link with the train (does the 2.5km limit apply?), he can much more easily drive in a rover. Besides, there's no earthmoving equipment in the game, so there's no way to cut gaps in crater rims or fill in crater depressions .

True, which is why track pieces will all be viaducts. And kerbtown objects (which is what's powering the track) have a far greater (and variable) render limit. But, I'm still quite a way from getting things working.

[Starwaster]

Use the Translatron in MechJeb for easy hovering. Makes VTOL flight very easy once you get the hang of it. Took me awhile but I finally worked it out after accidentally landing a few kilometers too far from my Kerbal's basecamp on Duna. Was a difficult landing in an untested design and I needed to pick up 4 Kerbals for transport back to Kerbin. The choice of either walking/flying them one at a time or learning how to fly my tail lander 10 meters off the ground properly motivated me.

So, what you do is use the Translatron to 'Hold Vertical' while selecting a vertical speed of 0. (after lifting off to the desired altitude) then just gently tilt in the direction you want to fly.

Or if you don't want to use Mechjeb on philosophical grounds you can get the Avionics mod which also makes VTOL flight easy. Or use both together.

[ThirdHorseman]

Well first off I'm not going to use any flying aids like MechJeb, the point is to do it myself.

My first attempts at a more horizontal flight approach didn't work out too well. I think my problem was relying too much on RCS, which isn't proving powerful enough to move me in any real way.

This one was a massive failure, mainly because I forgot to run fuel lines to the small engines in the wings! So landing was a real pain. It could go vertical in a hurry though!

My next attempt was something bigger, that I could use to drop off and pick up smaller drones at sites of interest:

This time I used Rotatrons from the Infernal Robotics mod to get vertical thrust for takeoff, then switch to horizontal thrust for flight:

The problem was fuel. I needed to constantly provide upward thrust in addition to the horizontal thrust, and it drained the fuel fast. I could get from the equator to maybe 30deg north latitude. Not far enough, and most times I used up too much fuel flying and didn't leave enough to decelerate. Also, since I'm going to want to move large quantities of fuel and ore from my mining operations to my main base, drones like this are just way too small.

And I'm not going to use a train, sorry!

Geschosskopf, I was thinking that jumping to orbit and then back would be best. I was thinking about keeping the orbit low, around 5-6km, so that landing again would be easy. I don't mind the precision issue of sub-orbitals, since I'll be flying back and forth from the same places a lot, and I can probably create flight paths that make it easier. But if the amount of fuel needed to get to a low orbit is not much more I'll try that way.

I like the idea of using atomics. I've been using LV-909s, but the high ISP of the atomics might work out better. The LV-909s are nice and small, but still drain fuel a bit too fast for my taste. Even when I have a bunch available, like in one of my latest attempts at a fuel shuttle...

I think for now I'm going to try a few VTOL designs using atomics, and if it continues to give me problems I'll go back to doing full or sub-orbitals. Thanks all for the ideas!

Edited October 7, 2013 by ThirdHorseman
I meant LV-909s, not Poodles...

[Geschosskopf]

Geschosskopf, I was thinking that jumping to orbit and then back would be best. I was thinking about keeping the orbit low, around 5-6km, so that landing again would be easy. I don't mind the precision issue of sub-orbitals, since I'll be flying back and forth from the same places a lot, and I can probably create flight paths that make it easier. But if the amount of fuel needed to get to a low orbit is not much more I'll try that way.

Since Mun's geography changed in 0.21, the minimum guaranteed safe orbit altitude is 10km. At 8km, you'll probably but there are still a couple of mountains you might hit. 6km will hit MANY mountains.

Given that you'll probably have to orbit multiple times waiting for Mun to rotate your target under your path, you'll fly over much of the Munar surface so have a very good chance to encounter all the highest mountains. As such, strongly suggest going to 10km for this job.