A rant about people who are hyperbiased for Russian rockets.

[Iskierka]

Looks like you took my sarcastic remark about 'bullshit metrics' as a serious statement.

I have nothing further to post now, looks like this will be effective as discourse with a brick wall.

Perhaps it would\'ve been taken less seriously, had you replied to things like a fairly major point of giving the US a huge inherent advantage in the launch vehicles chosen, which are having their -entire- service history compared.

[mincespy]

...because they failed to get to the moon, much less develop a rocket for it.

*Ahem*

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/lk.html

[Guest Flixxbeatz]

[Mostlyharmless]

Why are we putting people into space with giant bombs anyway? I want my magnetic launch ramp!

[Kryten]

Why are we putting people into space with giant bombs anyway? I want my magnetic launch ramp!

You\'d still need a \'bomb\' on that, unless you\'re shooting your spacecraft at over escape velocity.

[Johno]

Okay, people. This is turning into a playground-style 'My Dad can beat up your dad!' competition, lacking only a circle of people chanting 'Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!' and teachers homing in on the only part of the school that hasn\'t suddenly emptied!

But given that I\'m a teacher, I don\'t like that. It makes me feel like I\'m at work, and I\'m on holidays. So can we dispense with the nationalistic crap please?

Russia has a population of 141,750,000 (give or take) and the USA 307,000,000. It\'s therefore totally ridiculous to say 'American stuff is better' or 'Russian stuff is better'. The best you can do is generalisation, and even then you\'re actually not evaluating anything by its merits.

Evaluating specific programs (e.g. Soyuz is better than Saturn V) is a little better, but not much; every program is designed to meet a unique requirement. Saturn V was an excellent moon rocket, but for ferrying stuff into LEO you\'d be better off using the Soyuz, which was designed with that task in mind. It\'s not about who designed it; it\'s about which system better meets the mission requirements.

It IS possible to make some generalisations that make a degree of sense, but to do that you need to go further down, to the level of COMPONENTS.

You CAN see some strengths and weaknesses of components of programs in general, but it\'s important to first note that even this isn\'t 100% accurate; in countries this size, you\'re not going to find many general descriptions that accurately fit all groups, companies and individuals. This is especially true since the breakdown of the Soviet Union, since when it has become commonplace for commercial spacecraft to use (for example) Russian engines and American (or other Western) electronics

Broadly speaking, therefore, I would say that the following trends can be observed:

* USA:

- Tend to be good at using advanced materials and design techniques in their designs.

- Sometimes overcomplicate designs.

- Have excellent electronics and miniaturisation techniques.

- Highly skilled at Project Management and tender processes

* Russians:

- Tend to make excellent use of readily available materials, and will generally use simpler (but more rugged) designs than equivalent American vehicles[1].

- Usually don\'t use a complex system when a simple one will do (avoiding, for example, the nightmarish complexity of re-usable liquid-fueled rocket engines a la the Shuttle).

- Have excellent rocket engines.

- Highly developed mass-production systems - recognising the utility of economies of scale.

[1] Here is the first 'not always!' point - American deep-space probes are exceptionally rugged in their design, although they\'re designed not for the extreme environmental conditions on Earth or even Venus; rather, they\'re built for the intense heat, cold, radiation and vacuum encountered in interplanetary space.

[Guest Flixxbeatz]

I was reading and following this thread for a while.

Until a heated debate ensued.

[Spearka]

^ No rocket is better than any other at anything. But the Saturn V for me was crap. They took 10 years to develop the thing and only used it for another 10. Sure it took people to the moon, but if the N1 had been in development for the same amount of time as the Saturn V, then the Russians would have been up there almost beating the USA.

Also take the Buran and the Space Shuttle. The Space Shuttle wasn\'t better than the Buran, it just was worked on long enough to get into operational use. The Buran wasn\'t.

wasn\'t the saturn V designed by the same fellow who designed the V2 as well?

[Guest GroundHOG-2010]

wasn\'t the saturn V designed by the same fellow who designed the V2 as well?

He also designed the Redstone rocket or his team did. He also did alot of other stuff.

[Spacecats!]

wasn\'t the saturn V designed by the same fellow who designed the V2 as well?

Wernher von Braun?

SPACE NAZI

[semininja]

Wernher von Braun?

SPACE NAZI

No.

There is no call for this kind of comment under any circumstances.

Please remove yourself and your peanut-gallery comment(s) from this forum, and return when you have discovered self-moderation.

[Johno]

I have absolutely no doubt that Mr Von Braun was a member of the Nazi Party and the SS. Technically in fact he was a Nazi. However, it is also true that it would have been very bad for his career aspirations were he not to join; He claimed it was mandatory, which I would dispute, but even so the NSDAP was the fast track to success.

He DID use slave labour, probably, and he demonstrated a willingness to do whatever it took to achieve his goals.

Therefore, I\'d have to say that Mr Von Braun was not necessarily a nice person. BUT, here\'s the big question - how much of that comes from the environment he was in, and how much was inherent to him?

In any case, though the term 'space Nazi' is fairly callous and insulting, there may be a grain of truth in it.

[Guest ThatCrazyPilot]

Wernher von Braun?

SPACE NAZI

STFU

[Spoot Knight]

You\'ve gone and upset the zombie rocket scientist.

Or you\'re a clone.

I still don\'t know how you got here.

[Guest Flixxbeatz]

You\'ve gone and upset the zombie rocket scientist.

Or you\'re a clone.

I still don\'t know how you got here.

He\'s from a parallel universe.

[Asaman]

OBJECTION

I am Russian and I don\'t trust anything made in Russia other than 'samovar' (russian tea pot) and occasionally china.

So I would keep as far away from rockets as possible.

[NovaSilisko]

Werhner von Braun was heavily opposed to the Nazi methodology, but kept it a secret so:

1. he could continue his work

2. he wasn\'t killed

[Spacecats!]

@everyone:

I was making a joke? Sorry for sarcasm not being able to transcribe over the internet.

[Johno]

Werhner von Braun was heavily opposed to the Nazi methodology, but kept it a secret so:

1. he could continue his work

2. he wasn\'t killed

So he said afterwards. I\'d like to believe him, but it\'s tempered by my understanding that so many members of the Hitler Youth got there entirely by accident, thinking that it was just a branch of the boy scouts. . . :roll: