Science Extended - Community Science Project

Swifty · October 22, 2013

BananaDealer to keep the thread on track, I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't make it sound like its a recruitment thread for Cabana Corp. I know it's part of your role playing type stuff but I fear it might turn some people away if they feel they have to join a corp.

Let us know how it's progressing and in just doing that I'm sure you'll get far more help than you'd anticipate. And keep the suggestions and general enthusiasm coming!

@sumghai. I'd be really exited if what we were able to create here is good enough to get added as a MODULE {} on your fustek science lab. But early days yet.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Swifty

BananaDealer · October 23, 2013

Think not of what others can do for you, but what you can do for others. (I'm sure that's a quote from somewhere)
Anyway, BananaDealer, if you focus on what you can do on you own for your Cabana Corp mod I'm sure others will help out where an when they can.
However to keep the thread on track, I would greatly appreciate it if you would not use 'Community Science Project' as a recruitment thread for Cabana Corp. I want this a a place were every modded can come contribute a little and hopefully take away a lot without the need to make a long term commitment.
Focus on what your able to do. And keep the suggestions and general enthusiasm coming.
@sumghai. I'd be really exited if what we were able to create here is good enough to get added as a MODULE {} on your fustek science lab. But early days yet.

I wasn't using the thread for recruitment... At least not in my mind...

And in any case, contributing to Cabana Corp.'s own "Expanded SCIENCE!" Project does not require a long-term commitment to Cabana Corp. R&D...

Anyways... Anyone have any clever ideas for rover/probe lander experiments and possible flavour text?

Also- does things like MohoInSpaceHigh and MohoInSpaceLow make a difference with non-biome planets?

Swifty · October 23, 2013

Im know and I'm sorry it wasn't really fair and didn't really get across what I was trying to say, which was why I changed it almost almost as soon as I'd posted it. As you can see units very different from what you quoted. I had to rewrite it several times until I got to the core of what I was trying to say.

I.e. I'm a bit worried people may feel the need to join cabana corp to be part of this.

Anyway as for in spacehigh/low. I think it does make a difference. However going through the squad sciencesdef.cfg they only ever use inspacehigh fore Kerbin.

I'm part way through writing a big list of every experiment I can think of and how I plan on implementing them. When I put that out there if you tell me which one interests you the most I'll make that first.

P.s. It's your sig it look so awesome it's intimidating.....

Edited October 23, 2013 by Swifty

BananaDealer · October 23, 2013

Anyway as for in spacehigh/low. I think it does make a difference. However going through the squad sciencesdef.cfg they only ever use inspacehigh fore Kerbin.
I'm part way through writing a big list of every experiment I can think of and how I plan on implementing them. When I put that out there if you tell me which one interests you the most I'll make that first.
P.s. It's your sig it look so awesome it's intimidating.....

Hmmm... Having High/Low for InSpace for Moho and Eve seems to work fine, as in the flavour text shows up properly...

As for experiments, if you're finished with the "passive" science gain module, can you maybe give me code for it (as in the module specifics for config files) so I can add functionality to the probes?

For the R&D Facility, I'd be interested in any experiments performed by/in the Kido Module of the ISS.

I will/am looking around for various equipment/experiments that were on Mars and Lunar rovers. Since I'm planning on those being "external" experiments (i.e- rover drills, radiation emitters, lasers etc.), I would need someone to make models. Though that can wait...

If you like the sig, I've added it to the Cabana Corp. R&D Mod since it is the company flag...

sharpspoonful · October 23, 2013

Still researching. I'll be posting a full list of experiments later this morning/late morning. NASA.gov is awesome. Off to work!

sumghai · October 23, 2013

I haven't thought much about lander/rover experiments, but I have a couple of ideas for experiments that could be run while in orbit:

Epitaxial Thin-Film Growth Experiment

Purpose: Determine the optimal conditions for depositing ultrapure thin-layer semiconductors; this would be very useful for low-cost, high quality / output Solar Panels

Suggested results:

- Kerbin surface: not much happens, other than the samples getting a bit dirty

- Kerbin orbit: microdebris impacts have damaged on many of the samples (as expected), some of which have fared better than others; higher orbit may result in less impacts

- Deep space: same results as high Kerbin orbit

- Planetary orbit: same as Kerbin orbit, but may include additional effects unique to certain planets

- Planetary surface: same as Kerbin surface

Other effects:

- 5~10 consistent reports of both high and low damage (each) results in various mini-tiers of improvements to impact strength of crewed compartments and probe housings in game. Highest mini-tier may possibly unlock a custom node* dubbed "Whipple Shielding", which gives the best - if somewhat marginal - increase in impact protection....as well as unlocking access to FusTek Station Parts :sticktongue:

*I'm not sure if KSP will ever allow custom Tech Nodes

Max80well80 · October 23, 2013

*I'm not sure if KSP will ever allow custom Tech Nodes

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think that the folks behind the KSP Interstellar in combination with Tree Loader have integrated custom nodes with the stock tech tree, maybe I don't really understand it, but that seems like what they've done.

BananaDealer · October 23, 2013

I haven't thought much about lander/rover experiments, but I have a couple of ideas for experiments that could be run while in orbit:
Epitaxial Thin-Film Growth Experiment
Purpose: Determine the optimal conditions for depositing ultrapure thin-layer semiconductors; this would be very useful for low-cost, high quality / output Solar Panels
Suggested results:
- Kerbin surface: film growth may or may not be successful; may contain large amounts of impurities due to outside contamination e.g. dust, soil
- Kerbin orbit: film growth successful; if in low orbit, results suggest better thin-film deposition/growth compared to even the best facilities on Kerbin; if in high orbit, even greater purity
- Deep space: film growth successful; results are very close to what theory would suggest back on Kerbin
- Planetary orbit: film growth successful; if in low orbit, results suggest consistent doping of semiconductor films with unique trace substances present in the upper atmosphere; if in high orbit, results will be identical to high Kerbin orbit
- Planetary surface: varies; most would fail due to extreme conditions / contamination; occasionally there would be some success, but the large number of extra-Kerbin substances make the thin films of little use due to a lack of understanding of said substances' properties
Other effects:
- 5~10 consistent reports collected from a variety of missions would result in various mini-tiers of improvements to all solar panels in game, in the similar vein to the ISP Difficulty Scaler; specifically, each mini-tier makes the panels lighter while producing more ElectricCharge
Microdebris Impact Experiment
Purpose: Determine the optimal materials / design / configurations for protecting various spacecraft hulls and fuselages from micrometeorites and/or small space debris, specifically for crewed compartments
Suggested results:
- Kerbin surface: not much happens, other than the samples getting a bit dirty
- Kerbin orbit: microdebris impacts have damaged on many of the samples (as expected), some of which have fared better than others; higher orbit may result in less impacts
- Deep space: same results as high Kerbin orbit
- Planetary orbit: same as Kerbin orbit, but may include additional effects unique to certain planets
- Planetary surface: same as Kerbin surface
Other effects:
- 5~10 consistent reports of both high and low damage (each) results in various mini-tiers of improvements to impact strength of crewed compartments and probe housings in game. Highest mini-tier may possibly unlock a custom node* dubbed "Whipple Shielding", which gives the best - if somewhat marginal - increase in impact protection....as well as unlocking access to FusTek Station Parts
*I'm not sure if KSP will ever allow custom Tech Nodes

Interesting... Though an upgrade system would probably be hard to implement with the current SCIENCE! system...

And yes, you can make your own tech nodes/trees with the TreeLoader plugin...

I'm not sure about merging different trees however...

sharpspoonful · October 23, 2013

I'm at a bit of an impasse with the experiments right now. Most of these were done via rovers and probes. Do you all want me to use the experiments and launches as a basic framework for EVA's or do we want to missions like MAVEN, M3, and Messenger?

If anyone wants to discuss real-time with me, contact me on Google Hangout. Email is [email protected]

Edited October 23, 2013 by sharpspoonful
contact info.

BananaDealer · October 23, 2013

Well, I'm interested in any rover-based experiments but most of those would depend on an external part which would need a model...

You can take the wheel on EVA experiments though...

In any case, I'll be updating (finally) the Cabana Corp. R&D mod with the new probe experiments along with tech-tree compatibility...

sharpspoonful · October 23, 2013

Microdebris Impact Experiment
Purpose: Determine the optimal materials / design / configurations for protecting various spacecraft hulls and fuselages from micrometeorites and/or small space debris, specifically for crewed compartments
Suggested results:
- Kerbin surface: not much happens, other than the samples getting a bit dirty
- Kerbin orbit: microdebris impacts have damaged on many of the samples (as expected), some of which have fared better than others; higher orbit may result in less impacts
- Deep space: same results as high Kerbin orbit
- Planetary orbit: same as Kerbin orbit, but may include additional effects unique to certain planets
- Planetary surface: same as Kerbin surface
Other effects:
- 5~10 consistent reports of both high and low damage (each) results in various mini-tiers of improvements to impact strength of crewed compartments and probe housings in game. Highest mini-tier may possibly unlock a custom node* dubbed "Whipple Shielding", which gives the best - if somewhat marginal - increase in impact protection....as well as unlocking access to FusTek Station Parts
*I'm not sure if KSP will ever allow custom Tech Nodes

Actually this would pair well with a Messenger-esque/Magellen-esque mission as it had to have a solar shield to study Mercury. And since Moho is suppose to be a take on Venus/Mercury take...And this is the Kerbal universe, why not make it a debris shield as well?

Another note I want to bring up is that there are a lot of mods that would be useful in the fact that plugins for these experiments would be done for the most part. The WSF mission could use the KAS winch, Radial att. point, and Sumghai's Heat shield for SDHI remodeled slightly and have added parts. Add in a custom .cfg and Voila! Experiment complete!

EDIT 1: And the first mission you mentioned also actually happened in a limited capacity, for those of you that don't already know:

Epitaxial Thin-Film Growth Experiment
Purpose: Determine the optimal conditions for depositing ultrapure thin-layer semiconductors; this would be very useful for low-cost, high quality / output Solar Panels
Suggested results:
- Kerbin surface: film growth may or may not be successful; may contain large amounts of impurities due to outside contamination e.g. dust, soil
- Kerbin orbit: film growth successful; if in low orbit, results suggest better thin-film deposition/growth compared to even the best facilities on Kerbin; if in high orbit, even greater purity
- Deep space: film growth successful; results are very close to what theory would suggest back on Kerbin
- Planetary orbit: film growth successful; if in low orbit, results suggest consistent doping of semiconductor films with unique trace substances present in the upper atmosphere; if in high orbit, results will be identical to high Kerbin orbit
- Planetary surface: varies; most would fail due to extreme conditions / contamination; occasionally there would be some success, but the large number of extra-Kerbin substances make the thin films of little use due to a lack of understanding of said substances' properties
Other effects:
- 5~10 consistent reports collected from a variety of missions would result in various mini-tiers of improvements to all solar panels in game, in the similar vein to the ISP Difficulty Scaler; specifically, each mini-tier makes the panels lighter while producing more ElectricCharge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Shield_Facility

The WSF was deployed in the wake of the Space Shuttle at an orbital altitude of over 300 kilometers (186 mi), within the thermosphere, where the atmosphere is exceedingly tenuous. The forward edge of the WSF disk redirected atmospheric and other particles around the sides, leaving an "ultra-vacuum" in its wake. The resulting vacuum was used to study epitaxial film growth.

EDIT 2: We could also tthe M3 probe to more efficiently (say 20% increase in mapping accuracy at higher warp speeds?) map Kethane and examine purity of deposits. This could be used for any other resource based mod as well.

EDIT 3: Space stations to facilitate experiments should start like the US did (mostly because FusTek/SDHI parts will make it simpler) with SkyLab.

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-400/sp400.htm

Edited October 23, 2013 by sharpspoonful
Eureka?

BananaDealer · October 23, 2013

The Cabana Corp. R&D mod has been updated!

Swifty · October 23, 2013

I've had a look at your mod and like the text you've got for all the probe experiments.

I have not finished coding up a module yet. The approach I was taking (trying to inherit from ModuleScienceExperiment and the completely override it) was not the right approach to take. Instead I am writing a fresh module.

I like the idea of having chatterer integrated in so that when you get results you get some kerbilised voice recording playing at the same time. I am also going to integrating it in with KAS in some manner so I can hopefully provide some of the workings for the KASPER system. I like the idea of having science labs that require experiments attached to function. I hope to have something to demonstrate by the end of the weekend (GMT time)

I have also setup a GIT repository, its got nothing in it yet though.

BananaDealer as for the probe science generator module. Would you like me put a module together that requires electricity and outputs science points straight into your wallet?

@sumghai: I like those experiments, they real. I will implement them for as part of the science dataset

@sharpspoonful: I think it would be easier initially to do mission like to ones you listed, but would defiantly like to make experiments whilst on EVA as well. So focus on what interests you the most.

I'll see if I can set something up were the Microdebris Impact Experiment is only completed if you have a KAS winch as maximum extension with a set part attached to it (the heat shield type thing)

Initially I plan to build up proof of concept capabilities for the plugin. Then as we progress we can refine things to a point were we are happy to make a release.

BananaDealer · October 23, 2013

I've had a look at your mod and like the text you've got for all the probe experiments.
I have not finished coding up a module yet. The approach I was taking (trying to inherit from ModuleScienceExperiment and the completely override it) was not the right approach to take. Instead I am writing a fresh module.
I like the idea of having chatterer integrated in so that when you get results you get some kerbilised voice recording playing at the same time. I am also going to integrating it in with KAS in some manner so I can hopefully provide some of the workings for the KASPER system. I like the idea of having science labs that require experiments attached to function. I hope to have something to demonstrate by the end of the weekend (GMT time)
I have also setup a GIT repository, its got nothing in it yet though.
BananaDealer as for the probe science generator module. Would you like me put a module together that requires electricity and outputs science points straight into your wallet?
@sumghai: I like those experiments, they real. I will implement them for as part of the science dataset
@sharpspoonful: I think it would be easier initially to do mission like to ones you listed, but would defiantly like to make experiments whilst on EVA as well. So focus on what interests you the most.
I'll see if I can set something up were the Microdebris Impact Experiment is only completed if you have a KAS winch as maximum extension with a set part attached to it (the heat shield type thing)
Initially I plan to build up proof of concept capabilities for the plugin. Then as we progress we can refine things to a point were we are happy to make a release.

That all sounds great!

Again, for the data drive idea- I'd really like the drives to use the Mit-value to determine their capacity as this feels most "genuine" and realistic. Otherwise you could just farm a single experiment and infinitely cram it in there...

Anyways- for the passive science "generator". Can you maybe make some sort of module that generates a really minute amount of science per hour (say 0.1 in all biomes) with no diminishing returns (so that it's only 0.1)? It should be on a toggle and dependant on the craft being in space... Also, is there a way to make the electric charge requirement scale with how far the craft actually is from Kerbin?

sharpspoonful · October 24, 2013

Question because I havent done it yet: is it possible to " bounce" off the atmosphere of Duna and keep an orbit? If so the MAVEN experiment would be cool to replicate.

BananaDealer · October 24, 2013

Question because I havent done it yet: is it possible to " bounce" off the atmosphere of Duna and keep an orbit? If so the MAVEN experiment would be cool to replicate.

Yes, aerobreaking and atmospheric "hopping" is possible on Duna...

BlazingAngel665 · October 24, 2013

Yes, aerobreaking and atmospheric "hopping" is possible on Duna...

However the "skipping" that can be seen in real life doesn't occur since the only parts that actually generate life are wings and control surfaces.

Gojira · October 24, 2013

However the "skipping" that can be seen in real life doesn't occur since the only parts that actually generate life are wings and control surfaces.

Apologies for pointing out the typo, but they generate life? We must investigate this! Make this science-y!

ludsoe · October 24, 2013

Apologies for pointing out the typo, but they generate life? We must investigate this! Make this science-y!

They give life to things like this.

BananaDealer · October 24, 2013

Apologies for pointing out the typo, but they generate life? We must investigate this! Make this science-y!

Well, technically, helping your craft not hit those dunes nose-first does count as "generating life"...

frizzank · October 24, 2013

Other exposure experiments. Just replace Goo with dried fruit or something.

You exposed the dried fruit to the vacuum of space.

BananaDealer · October 24, 2013

Other exposure experiments. Just replace Goo with dried fruit or something.
You exposed the dried fruit to the vacuum of space.

That's... Um... Lets at least try to stay science-y, shall we?

I mean, while I appreciate the value of exposing fruit to SPACE!, I don't necessarily see the applications of any findings that might result from such experiments...

frizzank · October 24, 2013

Dried fruit was just was just an example, anything could be used. Widget if you prefer the scientific word for example nonsense part.

I was merely saying it doesn't have to be super complicated to add variety to the game.

And I do think you could learn a lot by exposing dried fruit to different environments. Is it cold, did it melt into goo, or did it burst into flames? This is Kerbal Space Program.

cfds · October 30, 2013

I believe there need to be multiple science pools for some experiments.

Let's take surface samples from some biome with that can be "milked" for some total amount of science points. We can now split the total science in the following pools:

- 10% for a kind of crew report of the sample in its natural environment ("It looks gray and crumbles when I grip it too hard."), turned into data and transmitted full

- 20% for basic analysis in a lab (automated or crewed), turned into data and transmitted full

- 70% for detailed analysis that can only be done on Kerbin

Returning the sample to Kerbin should drain from the last two pools.

Exposure examples should take a different distribution:

- 40% for automatically gathered data that can be transmitted fully

- additional 40% for crewed experiments

- 20% for recovery (since we do not learn much new stuff when we have returned to Kerbin)

With this technique we would circumvent the "repeatedly transmitting devalues recovering sample" problem and encourage manned missions for exposure experiments.

Thoughts?

BananaDealer · October 30, 2013

I like the idea of multiple science pools, even if I don't entirely get what you're saying...

I'm not sure how it could be implemented though...

Science Extended - Community Science Project

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