TinkerTech: Complete Science Tree overhaul for experienced players

[SirJodelstein]

I used r4m0ns TreeEdit to create a total Techtree rework to adress all of the issues i have with the stock Tree (mainly "way too easy" and "unlimited sending == returning"). It can be selected in the Tree selection menu from TreeLoader. In this tree, you will need to explore Kerbins biomes via rovers and experimental planes before beeing able to unlock the first rockets. You will face meaningful decisions about your next advances, since you cannot simple unlock it all at once. Do you really need those ladders or lights? Or maybe save those valuable science points for more pressing limitations? Go for better rockets first? Or maybe invest in lighter probe cores and transmission technology? Or more science experiments? Or save it all up for energy sources? Your choice! One thing is for certain: You will need to build vessels you have never built before in KSP, this tree will challenge your creativity, engineering expertise and strategic planning.

Tech Tree overview with node costs and node content highlights (click for full resolution)

Features:

- mismatching parts whereever you look. You will have to build some adventurous contraptions to progress. (See album at the bottom).

- Early Kerbin biome missions required to gather enough science for spaceflight technology

- Drone exploration as the only viable choice for early space missions due to the massive weight of the available pods.

- Large unwieldy parts come before more efficient designs

- generally about ~1-2 missions per technology, total unlocking cost about 29.000 science (not counting the empty "experimental" nodes from the stock tree)

- Spaceflight starts with the small SRB

- Late transmission elements (750 science). No suicidal missions early on.

- No energy generation until very late stages (2000 science). Interplanetary missions without energy sources other than rocket engines? Better pack some tons of batteries ;-)

The tree is balanced to be used with the following restrictions (ignore them if you like it easier):

- No crew reports from ladders of a landed vessel (generates the "flying-over-XY" report). If you want that report, you better build something that can hover.

- Dont use the airplane cockpits for spaceflight. Cupola, command pods and chairs only. Chairs are balanced since they cannot store experiments.

- No manned spaceflight mission to anywhere where you have not sent a probe first

This is a tech tree for anyone who likes a good challenge. I tried to keep node progression and content logical/natural, but in quite some cases creating gameplay challenges came first here. So don't complain that it is unlogical to have struts very late, or that noone would ever send a probe to space without having developed energy sources and radio transmission first. This is the Kerbin way of science!

Technical note: The tree contains all the nodes of the stock tree, so if you use mods which have assigned their parts to these nodes, the parts will still appear somewhere along your journey. Use mod parts at your own will (balancing might be off).

Feedback welcome!

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Edited November 3, 2013 by SirJodelstein
added image

[The Destroyer]

Sounds intteresting, but as far as I can tell there is no download link?

[SirJodelstein]

Get r4m0ns TreeLoader (also linked in the OP) and fire up KSP. Start a new career game. TreeLoader plugin will ask you to select a Tree from a dropdown list and load the selected tree automatically for you (via kspmodders.com)

[redmario14]

You sir, are a genius. I've been looking for something like this for a long time. Thank you.

[Ratzap]

I've tried it but I don't know how you come up with 1 or 2 missions per tech node. At first sure but you have to keep going back to suck areas dry to keep going. 100 to unlock the first SRB and maybe get somewhere after I've already cleaned out the nearest 5 biomes just getting to that stage? I'm not sure about this, it's starting to feel more and more like masochism trying to continue.

Are you even sure there are choices to be made? If you've pared it right down to the bone there may only be one or two 'right' ways to prioritize picks.

[SirJodelstein]

Currently playing through it myself, and yes, the 1-2 missions per node is achieveable, and i am trying to go unusual ways in the tree. I have choices everywhere i go, but also have the "i shouldn't pick this yet, this might cripple me" thought about some nodes. I used jet engines to get science from Kerbins biomes, with a flight to the north pole to unlock SRBs. With that, the door is open for drone missions to space/LKO first, and with a little optimization unmanned Mun/Minmus (at 400-500 science each) + manned missions into LKO, wich eventually leads to manned missions to Mun+Minmus in chairs. Gave me choices between better rockets vs transmission vs construction things vs new science experiment. Went with transmission, and did a Duna impactor mission with loads of batteries. With better rockets, i might have done a return mission instead. Or i could have continued to do Mun missions to unlock solar panels. Now i have unlocked the large SRB+LV30, and can finally do a heavy lifter.

If you are having troubles, maybe you are missing a crew science opportunity? (EVA while flying over biome?) Or some areas for science that can be reached early on with some tinkering like "upper atmosphere" or "space near Kerbin (not orbit)". I can show you some of my designs if you are interested (pm me).

[Ratzap]

I think what's causing most of my second thoughts is having to scrape everything right down to the last few points. I've got a plane built now and the SRBs unlocked but getting to that really felt very grindy due to having to drive 30km or so back and forth in jet cars to recover all the science possible. The thought of having to do the same for thousands more science just isn't particularly pleasant or uplifting. I don't know really, I'll give it a bit more time but it's just giving the impression of artificially painful progress for no other reason than making it harder.

What I'm trying to say is there's a fine line between challenge and masochism, thus far I'm not quite sure which side of the line this is.

[SirJodelstein]

Well, i admit that balancing it these numbers and trying to foresee possible designs is really hard, and if you took a different road (please pm me your node progression + missions done progress) than me you might have a really hard time. Sorry for that then, and thanks a lot for this feedback. But in my initial playthrough, i didnt need a 30km rover drive, since once you get jets you can flying things to reach the deserts and the mountain biomes fast (kinda tough to land without chutes, but great&fast explorers). At my current stage in the tree, i did three Mun missions (unmanned, unmanned with hop, 4 kerbals with hop) and two Minmus missions, all with minor node unlocks + improvements to launch vehicle and lander craft inbetween, and it feels really rewarding to me. Obviously, finding the perfect spot between "too easy" and "too grindy" is very hard in a sandbox game where some people can pull of tier 0 interplanetary stock career missions on the one hand, and others are having difficulties reaching orbit with such things.

I was hoping that others might enjoy these challenges aswell, thats why i published this tree. Anyway, i appreciate any feedback, be it negative or positve, so keep it coming. Thanks a lot for trying this out, hope you stay with it for a little longer.

[Ratzap]

Reading your reply made me realise what the core problem is: you made the tree so you know where everything is, anyone else has to buy everything at least once to find out what is behind it. But it's balanced according to your play testing with no slop factor.

That's what's making it such a tight struggle for me and the folks I got to try it. I need to start saving my game state, buy things to note what's behind it and restore. Otherwise I can't really make informed decisions about what to get next. Planes are the best example, it took me a while to find them whereas you know where they are and went straight to them right? So I probably had to grind out another 50 to 100 science on top just to find plane tech which is why it feels such a chore. At one point I was 2 point short and the science logger showed there was 1.4 left available, I installed the achievement mod as it gives you 5 science for each achievement. That got me to the next node, it was that or delete and walk away because I was not repeating the 6 or 7 hours to that point

Yeah I know about feedback. If no-one says anything, nothing changes. An author needs to know what people trying think.

[SirJodelstein]

I have created a tech tree overview map

Tech Tree with node costs and (important) contents (click for full resolution)

[Pingonaut]

What exactly is the progression supposed to be like? I started out, got the command seat and built a glider that got me to the highlands of Kerbin.

After that I got stuck, because the fuel tanks that you give us are smaller than any command/unmanned pods we have, and attaching them would be ugly and unacceptable to the way I play.

Any ideas, or suggestions on how to start out?

[SirJodelstein]

Any ideas, or suggestions on how to start out?

Well, if it is unacceptable for you to attach things in unusual combinations like "small SRB + cupola" or "Rockomax Stack decoupler" + 1.25m tanks, then you probably won't get far with this tree. Its not called "TinkerTech" for nothing, and the early to mid-stage designs will look like backyard assemblies. If you don't like that, you might want to look for a different tree. I think it's fun to build such things.

This is why i encourage you to embrace the theme and just try to make stuff work with the parts you have at hand. If you can reach the highlands, you probably can also reach the shores, water, grassland and maybe mountains. Getting "Basic Flight" for the intake will allow you to use the jet engines to extend your reach (mountains + deserts); try to get a Kerbal to different biomes for EVA reports and surface samples. If you have some science available, think about which tech node will allow you to reach further and/or generate more science. Maybe you can also use a combination of jet engines + Sepratrons/Ant engines to put a probe into the upper atmosphere, space or even orbit for more science. I got the SRB fairly late (after a visit to tundra+north pole), but getting it earlier by skipping some of the 50-science nodes might be a good alternative. Once you get them, the door to space is wide open (even without decouplers - you can use several sepratrons pointing at a single piece as a makeshift stage decoupler).

Here is an album of some creations from my test-run (first one is obviously not very useful, its just included as a spoiler-blocker). Especially the cupola-hovercraft turned out to be an incredibly useful thing that went through quite a few missions, as it made the "EVA while flying over biome" possible.

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[Hyomoto]

Hah! Looks hilarious! You know, those screenshots might give people a better idea of what your mod is about. You should probably take your response and first page it. I'm in the middle of another tech tree right now, but I'll have to give this a shot. This is exactly the type of stupid crap I do, I might enjoy it. It feels very rewarding to unlock ways to make your designs more efficient, I'm using a modified tree as well, rather than just ... randomly receiving additional parts.

[Ratzap]

Some of mine below. I've given up on it for a bit and got back to other saves. I need 250 or 750 nodes next and although the lack of power options means no transmission spamming, it's been swapped for mission/return spamming instead. And since you need so much more science in total, you have to keep going back for every last little scrap so IMO it swaps one kind of spam grind for a different flavour. Some of my designs below