time warp isn't cheating

[Buback]

I just want to be clear that i was never suggesting real-time science. i was actually suggesting the opposite. maybe it wouldn't work with the "on rails" system, but it doesn't seem like it's be that hard to bypass, since you really don't need to model the physics of a whole craft just to count science.

Regardless, the economic model could prevent infinite science and would be an workable constraint, but the point is moot if the science system stays as it is since you currently don't accrue science over time. Even if science was changed, however, the economic model would have to take into account timewarp. What if you miss an Eeloo window? it's a 17 kerbin-year window! if the economy isn't self sufficient enough after exploring all the inner planets, i think a lot of players just won't bother going to the outer ones. they'd be too consumed with keeping the money flowing in to keep the agency running.

Something has to be scarce in order to make Career mode worth playing. it could be money, or delivered experiments, or electricity, or kerbals. it shouldn't be "how often i can click on the 'observe goo canister' button".

Edited November 1, 2013 by Buback

[Mirimus]

Something has to be scarce in order to make Career mode worth playing. it could be money, or delivered experiments, or electricity, or kerbals. it shouldn't be "how often i can click on the 'observe goo canister' button".

I may be misunderstanding your point on this one, but the amount of science decreases quite rapidly the more times you use a specific tool in a certain environment ... so surely its not how often you can click on a tool, as you have to take that tool to different places to obtain the maximum amount of RP (Research Points)

I am also curious as to why you suggest that one of the player obtainable resources need to be scare to make career mode worth playing .. in all good games that i have played that work like this, i find the best ones to be the ones where the resources grow alongside the expansion of whatever it is your doing. Otherwise i just find myself getting frustrated by constantly feeling like i need more X.

I think the resources in the game should react according to how you play the game, if you are careless with your kerbals lives then maybe less kerbals offer to join the program, that kind of thing.

I find the most annoying games are the ones where you have to wait around for the game to develop itself (when it comes to advancing through tech or skills)

It is much more enjoyable when games react to things you do and you achieve bonuses the closer to perfection you get. Instead of getting excited because an hour passes and you can finally do something, you get excited because you did something right!

[Buback]

Well it's the idea of scarcity and restriction that makes it a challenge. Otherwise, you'd just play sandbox. Scarcity as a game mechanic forces you to make difficult choices.

And the grindyness of the current system is acknowledged even by the devs. for me, it's click tool>transmit>repeat till i run out of power>warp more power>start again until science gain is less than 2. I could return to kerbin and get 100%, but then i'd have to fly one mission to every area in every SOI, which would take much much more time.

Here's Felip's post from the Daily Kerbal:

HarvesteR: Many Improvements done to Science Experiments and Transmission. Transmitting data does not allow you to max out a subject anymore as the science gain for transmission decays to 0% as repeated data is sent. Also, removing the data from an experiment module for transmission will render some experiment modules unusable. You can still reset and discard an experiment freely, as long as you don’t remove the data from it.

EVAs are now able to pick up data from data containers, which include not just experiments but also pods and even other EVAs. Also added some more info and progress bars to the science dialog, to give a better sense of how the data will be turned into science. Just now working on the new Lab module, which will let you take collected data and analyze it, increasing its transmission yield. Lots of work as you can probably imagine, but all this should make the gathering of science much more interesting, and eliminate most of the ‘grindy’ strategies for making quick science.

[Svovlmunk]

Here's an idea. I too feel that it kinda ruins the "scale" of the game that science is instantly gained. What i would like to see is that the science gained through experimentation is raw data which needs analyzing by the reserchers down at the facility. This means that the data you gain up in space and whatnot is not just being used to insta-unlock the tech tree. You might then say that you could just time-warp to speed up the analyzing by the researchers, but here's the thing: Your researchers need to get payed in order to conduct science. This means that if you just time-warp, you'll run out of money. You need to get out there and do stuff to keep your space program running and to be able to fund those experiments.

I realize that budget is not implemented in the game yet, but the point is that i feel that research should be closely tied with your budget, rendering all these discussions about science and time-warp needless.

[Kerbart]

Personally I think the point is rather moot. If you care for “realism†(which is always the holy idol in the “this is what is wrong with the tech tree†discussions) then don’t use timewarp in the first place. Yes, missions will be long and grinding. Just as in reality, and isn’t that what you want? (well the ones that want reality, I mean). It means you will have to be a lot more careful about what you do, and when, and make sure your mission succeeds the first time because the next launch window will not be here for a long time. Just as in reality. It’s a beautiful concept, because it immediately quiets the whining about how small the Kerbol system is and that all orbits fit within a Venus orbit. Because well... that would make it even worse (having Sol-like orbits I mean).

Once you have decided to use time-warping you’ve ventured into the territory of “cheating†and there is nothing wrong with that, it is all about keeping the game fun and enjoyable. Sure, there are certain gradations and techniques that allow you to overcome in-game obstacles, allowing for additional “cheating†but in reality that is just a matter of setting yourself restrictions. What I do not understand though is the constant desire to impose those restrictions to other players.

“It should not be possible to unlock the entire tech tree with a single Jool mission with 30 minutes of real-word gametime.†Well here is a really, really easy and effective solution to it: if you do not like it that the game is played like that, do not play the game like that. Personally, I like advancing through the tech tree, stepping from simple missions to more complex ones. I'm sure if I really went for it I could unlock the entire tree in one go but what would be the point? I could send a monster ship to Duna loaded with eight capsules, twelve science modules and twenty goo containers “to get all my science done in a single mission†but if I'm that desperate to unlock the tree then why even do the mission? As pointed out before, just go in the text file and give yourself a million science points.

Career mode provides a structure to the game. You can enhance that structure in any way you see fit. As long as the game is not a competitive MMO (and by now I can perfectly see why the devs won’t go that route, the whining would never stop and with the majority of the players living in the USA there’d be lawsuit after lawsuit) who cares? If you feel that the game needs certain limitations then go ahead, and play within those limitations. If you feel the game would be intensely frustrating with certain limitations in play then thank god, the devs do not enforce those limitations.

There is only one wrong way to play the game: to do it in such a way that you are not having fun.

[Lheim]

The entire thread here reminds me why most game players would make terrible game designers.

If half the suggestions in this thread were implemented, you'd end up tediously restocking a space station with 'science supplies' every five minutes, and time warping until the tech tree was completed .. or sitting there just like you have to watch your kethane sats scan manually, cuz it's based on 'real minutes played'. Is that gameplay? No, definitely not. Neither is save-file editing. The idea for active, user-engaging science that encourages exploration of the solar system is exactly what a good game designer would come up with.

This is a case of wait and see. Wait and see until the multi-transmission scumming is fixed. Wait and see till resources like money is implemented.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Lheim

[Dwight_js]

The entire thread here reminds me why most game players would make terrible game designers....

Can's say I entirely agree with you on all of your points. Sitting around waiting for something to happen is definitely not good game-play. But if you're going to have space stations, then you're going to have to manage their resources in some way (oxygen, food, water, waste, etc). Resupply launches will be mandatory, and if launches and rendezvous is tedious for you... well, that's kind of a big part of a space program. I think this would actually add a much needed aspect to the game. Don't forget that your Kerbals will be able to take over some tasks, so recurring events will probably not require your direct attention (until your specially trained Kerbal gets it wrong and you have to design a rescue mission).

The main problem I have with the Kethane mod is that you have to be within 3km for your rigs to harvest/convert. The biggest improvement that could be made there is to let the rigs keep working while you go off and fly other missions. I don't see a problem with setting up a drill, then leaving it for a day to do its thing while I go have fun somewhere else. I personally hope that having lots of "irons in the fire" will be part of the game so that I can zip between concurrent flights to execute maneuvers/fulfill objectives.

I do hope for lots of the "user-engaging science that encourages exploration of the solar system" that you mention. I would love to deploy mapping satellites to gather elevation data to be used in mission planning (identifying landing sites). Satellites could also be used to identify composition of the surface and identify possible resource extraction sites. Samples would have to be taken for full analysis to determine viability of an extraction operation.

I definitely want something more than "push the button... got some points. Ok, push the button again - yay, you got some more points." What kind of things did you have in mind?

[Technical Ben]

There might be a possibility of adding a time based science collection module. Say the telescope. It does scan the horizon continuously. And provides science as you do other missions. It still provides a reduction in repeated experiments (as the current system does), but needs less "nannying" as the current expeditions. This would mean a player could for instance, only use "automated" science modules, if they prefer not to do EVA/click everything. But, it would require lots of satellites, probes etc, and lots of antennas/coms arrays. Plus would give a return that is relatively the same playtime as manual, just less mouse clicks out on flight and more launches/bigger satellites (for the telescope).