[1.1.3] AntennaRange 1.11.4 - Enforce and Encourage Antenna Diversity

[Mecripp]

toadicus just a FYI RemoteTech2 changed it's name sometime back and it just RemoteTech now seen in your file you still have :NEEDS[!RemoteTech2] would it need changed to :NEEDS[!RemoteTech] now ?

[BudgetHedgehog]

Just a thought in EVA transmission - the EC usage is too low. Given that EC usage isn't monitored on relay vessels, a very viable solution to sending Science without worrying about EC running out is to just go on EVA and hit send. For example, I think I barely used 10 EC on EVA while transmitting a Munar surface sample via the capsules antenna whereas if I transmitted it directly from the capsule, I'd run out of EC after like 5 packets had been sent (and both capsule and kerbal have 100 EC). Just some feedback on it because as a whole, I love the fact it's there, it makes things a lot more convenient. It just needs to be a bit more balanced and this is my suggestion. I'm not saying it should be the same usage as kerbals have no solar panels or RTGs, just that it should take a large majority of the EC (maybe leave enough to transmit one EVA report or something?).

[toadicus]

MeCripp, looks like that answer is "yes". I'll get it in the next version.

OWKSP: I'm working up some general improvements to my EVAManager code that will make things a bit better. First, EVA packs will not be magically filed by magical magic, and instead will get their charge from the pod they left (and put it back when they return). I'll also increase the power use and probably reduce the bandwidth. I'm going to try to make it "feel good" to transmit EVA reports from EVA, but make transmitting big experiments (like gravimeter reads) feel more burdensome (aka slow). Then I'll revise the overall efficiency to be in line with the monopole (maybe slightly better), and that's probably going to be all for now.

AR2 development is still dangling on the end of the list of things I'd like to do. Whenever I get to that, it'll bring a Serious Revision to this issue.

Thanks for the input!

[Hyomoto]

Loving this mod. It matches the simplicity of KSP nicely but adds a nice strategic layer. I have a very small parts pack but I want to support Antenna Range so I wrote up a config:

@PART[bladeAntenna]:FOR[AntennaRange]:NEEDS[!RemoteTech2]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleDataTransmitter]
	{
		@name = ModuleLimitedDataTransmitter
		nominalRange = 30000
		maxPowerFactor = 4
		maxDataFactor = 2
	}

	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleScienceContainer

		dataIsCollectable = true
		dataIsStorable = false

		storageRange = 2
	}
}

@PART[bladeAntennaS]:FOR[AntennaRange]:NEEDS[!RemoteTech2]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleDataTransmitter]
	{
		@name = ModuleLimitedDataTransmitter
		nominalRange = 30000
		maxPowerFactor = 4
		maxDataFactor = 2
	}

	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleScienceContainer

		dataIsCollectable = true
		dataIsStorable = false

		storageRange = 2
	}
}

No surprise but I plagiarized your configs figuring that was easiest. However, my antennas show up red even on Kerbin so I don't know why they wouldn't be working. They show up as properly modified in the parts catalog, they just don't apparently connect with Kerbin. Also, I know you said the relay functionality is limited but does it update in real time? I've had times when it's clear I have a line of sight and no go, and other times when there is absolutely no line of sight and yet it's green. May I also make the suggestion that, if it interests you, perhaps a mode where you have to be able to relay back to the KSC rather than just Kerbin?

[toadicus]

Hyomoto, the problem with those patches is your nominalRange. Remember that nominalRange is in meters, so you're only prescribing a range of about 30 km -- not actually all the way to Kerbin's center. You probably want a number more like 1000 times bigger than those numbers.

With, maxPowerFactor = 4, your maximum tranmission distance will be twice nominal. Hope that helps!

The relay functionality updates constantly, but each individual relay will only repeat its search every 5 seconds, so in general it may take up to 5 seconds to register a change in path.

I intentionally do not require a connection specifically back to KSC. I explained it some time ago (but am happy to find the quote myself, no worries ):

I have intentionally not required a relay back to KSC specifically because, in my view, it's a rather baseless restriction. Back in the days of the first manned spaceflights, NASA was not dependent upon space-based infrastructure to talk to their pilots, but also had more than a 10 minute window to do so while they whizzed over Texas every hour or two. They used surface-based infrastructure to effect these early communications. The Apollo missions going all the way to the Moon also used surface-based infrastructure. IMO it's unreasonable to assume that the Kerbals do not have similar capacities even at the very start of a career save.

Were I to add such a limitation, I probably would actually not allow any artificial point on Kerbin to act as a relay. Instead, I'd require that an antenna be installed suitably close to KSC as "the KSC relay", and thus require the player to develop every single point of communications infrastructure -- even the "home base" antenna. But, IMO, that is not a fun or interesting requirement. Sending suborbital missions comprising an antenna on a parachute isn't challenging enough to be a fun task, and doesn't really contribute to the development of a meaningful skillset in terms of gameplay. If it's not well-founded in the "reality" of the game world, isn't fun, and isn't educational, it's just busywork for its own sake.

I welcome discussion on this topic. Maybe there is a right way to make building a short range communications network in the early game a good addition! I encourage you (and anyone else) to recommend and defend an implementation that meets at least two of the three criteria above: grounded in reality, fun, or educational.

As I said all that time ago, if you've got a good reason for me to change my mind, please go for it.

[Hyomoto]

Well, I wondered if it was the distance, may I ask what the radius of Kerbin is? I sort of figured it applied that distance to all antenna ranges automatically. I doubled my numbers to see what effect they'd have, perhaps I'm just not fully understanding how the options affect the transmission ability.

As for my argument for relaying back to the KSC, it is simply "if it interests you". A first mission to plop an antenna slightly beyond the range of the launch pad is meaninglessâ€â€I'm not going to deny that but it's also not exactly a strong argument to begin with. What's the difference between relaying back to Kerbin and relaying back to the KSC? Well, what's the difference between relaying it back to Kerbin instead of just being a straight shot? Some people enjoy the relay option because it creates additional requirements and obstacles to overcome. Having an option that the relay must make it back to the KSC is just another level of obstacles that people like myself will enjoy. The KSC likely has antennas, there's no reason to complicate the idea. It's just a suggestion for one more level of precision. If you provide it, awesome. If you don't, I'm still going to use the mod.

Regardless, if I understand you correctly can the mod add the radius of the planet to the necessary transmission lengths itself? I figured 30km from the surface, not from the core. That sort of creates a weird situation where the antennas can broadcast further to each other than they can to the planet. Even if you are just approximating the surface, I figure that's where you are trying to broadcast to.

[toadicus]

Currently the terminal transmission target is the center of Kerbin. Kerbin's radius is 600,000 m, so any minimally-functional antenna will need that range.

If you're looking to create a specific effect involving short range antennas on the surface, a current solution might be to place one of Squad's antennas at KSC. Your short-range antennas will then relay through that one -- as long as they're withing 30km and line of sight.

I need to change the terminal relay logic to go to Kerbin's surface, not its core, which would make some issues like this more straightforward to think about. If you'd like, feel free to share the effect you're trying to create; I'm happy to help you find a way to do it with the tools available now, or give you some new ones.

EDIT:

I've changed the logic so the distance to a CelestialBody will report the distance to the idealized surface.

Edited January 1, 2015 by toadicus

[Hyomoto]

I left that out of my post, but I built two blade antennas for use on planes. Pre-antenna range it didn't matter because they could just be antennas, but your mod got me to thinking, "Why not have them fill a specialized role too?" They are lightweight and aerodynamic, and obviously I'm very, very loosely approximating line-of-sight communications here, so 30km seemed like a nice 'gamey' number to use. The change to broadcasting to the surface instead of the core should make antenna coverage make more sense. It also lays the foundation for the KSC relay ... Honestly, that's where my suggestion comes from, if it's easy to do I'd like to use it. If it's a whole mess of work, I consider the current option good enough. Just know setting up satellite and ground stations to ensure good worldwide coverage is awesome to some people, and I'm pointing to me when I say that.

I just realized while re-reading your post, the way to 'fix' my issue would be to do exactly what you said would be no fun! I'm not sure if it's irony but it is pretty funny. Now if I can just get you on board for the KSC ... you'll have done all this work to make one person more happy.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

Hyomoto, to further support toadicus's point, Kerbals and spaceships are somehow able to be recovered from any point on the planet, which suggests that the Kerbals have more infrastructure on Kerbin than we are shown. Presumably, communication is part of it.

That said, if you're interested in forcing relays to reach back to KSC, thus requiring you to do more infrastructure development yourself, RemoteTech might be what you're looking for (though it seems it's not yet updated for 0.90). If the default setup isn't to your taste, there is an option to disable communication lag, and MeCripp made a config which converts all antennas into omnidirectional antennas (instead of forcing you to mess around with dish cones and such).

Also, there's plenty of infrastructure management to be done with this mod once you start sending missions to other bodies -- which I think is reasonable, given that Kerbals are just beginning to move off-world. Sure, I could put interplanetary-range dishes on every single mission beyond LKO, but I'm working on establishing a comm network in Mun orbit (and everywhere else that I go, eventually) that will allow all surface missions to just use the short-range antennas and still be able to talk to Kerbin.

[Hyomoto]

Nah, I enjoy Antenna Range. It's simple and easy while still having the desired effect. I'm not insisting complex is better, KSP isn't a hardcore simulation, but it is a game and I think the two are being confused here. My point is that AR supports simple relays, so instead of Kerbin being the point of reference, the option to have the KSC be the end point would be appreciated. Nothing more, nothing less. Toadicus doesn't have to make/add/change anything, but he did ask me to make my case. Encouraging me to use RemoteTech is like enjoying a slice of pecan pie and asking for whipped cream and then someone tells me maybe I want cherry pie because it already has it. I can still enjoy my pie without it. Hell, the cherry pie is probably good too. What I think we can all agree with is pie is delicious.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Hyomoto

[Hyomoto]

Well, I have a bug report for you; it seems that you have broken command seats. If you have probes require connection, command seats do not allow you to control the attached craft when manned.

[toadicus]

AntennaRange has been updated to version 1.7! This version brings a handful of bugfixes and feature improvements, along with a balance pass for the EVA transmitter.

CHANGELOG:

v.1.7 [2015-01-03]
* Balance pass for the EVA transmitter.
* ToadicusTools: Fixed command detection for KerbalSeats.
* Changed the way distance to CelestialBodies is calculated; now reports distance to the idealized surface.
* Added patch support for FilterExtensions.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

Just caught a misspelling in the new FilterExtension section of your config:

@SUBCATEGORY
[*]:HAS[#title[Data?Transmitter]]:FOR[AntennaRange[B][COLOR=#ff0000]:[/COLOR][/B]]NEEDS[FilterExtensions]

The colon is misplaced.

[toadicus]

Fixed. Thanks!

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

Are you sure? The colon is still inside the bracket, at least in the zip I just got from KerbalStuff. I'm sorry if my post was unclear: I was indicating the mistake in the patch, not what it should be (the colon should be outside the bracket).

[toadicus]

OK, for realz this time. It was a problem with my deployment scripts after some recent changes, pulling things from now-wrong places.

Sorry for the noise!

[Hyomoto]

It's so beautiful! Giving it a try straightaway!

[BudgetHedgehog]

Thanks for giving the EVA transmission a balancing. And transmitting to the surface will make things a lot easier for adding other antennas. Thanks in general!

EDIT: What does 'use fixed power cost' mean in the KSC settings GUI?

Edited January 5, 2015 by ObsessedWithKSP

[Wheffle]

Quick question about the line of sight requirement:

Is this only for having line of sight to another vessel that serves as a relay, or should being on the back side of the Mun with a dish normally strong enough to reach Kerbin also block connection? As it stands I seem to be maintaining connection without line of sight to Kerbin.

If this is intended, that's fine. I'm just curious. I haven't tried any relay setups yet so I don't know if it's working or not working in that situation.

[toadicus]

Wheffle, thanks for the report! I found the problem; somehow in a recent commit I managed to delete a line of code that should not have been deleted. I'm gonna say my two year old did it... but who knows, maybe I slipped or something.

The omission was actually in ToadicusTools; you can go get the new DLL over here; just overwrite the one that came with AntennaRange. I've also updated the AntennaRange archives on my mirror; I'll get the KerbalStuff archive in a bit.

[toadicus]

What does 'use fixed power cost' mean in the KSC settings GUI?

That's a feature that was requested by rkman quite a while ago, which lowers the data rate as you go outside nominal range, instead of increasing the power cost. It is technically a more realistic response to a long range connection, but over time it has the same effect.

[eddiew]

Aha, interesting mod!

Just to check; I've got a bunch of proberovers on Mun that are regularly useful for temperature/seismic contracts, but only have whips on them - if I sent over a satellite with a dish, would they then be usable, via signal relay? Also, does AR care about line of sight, or is it just "anything in my sphere"?

Thanks!

[toadicus]

eddiew, yes they would! By default, AntennaRange will not require line of sight, so a single communications satellite in low Munar orbit with an antenna big enough to talk back to Kerbin will provide a consistent connection for your rovers. At the Space Center, though, you can open up the AntennaRange config options (the icon is a little green satellite) and enable line of sight requirements, along with a handful of other options. I strongly recommend the line of sight option; it makes things much more realistic and at least a bit more fun.

[Wheffle]

Oh! Glad i could be helpful! I have to say, remotetech was a wild and crazy ride, but in my old age antennarange definitely hits the spot without all the fuss, fluff and occasional RT-induced kraken. Thanks!

[djnattyd]

Toadicus, is there a way to have AR display its button in the stock toolbar when I also have Blizzys Toolbar installed?

I tend to have Blizzys set to auto hide and end up being unaware when I'm out of range due to the AR logo not being visible.