(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[SSSPutnik]

dV is much better though with nukes, only used chemical to reach orbit, (with nukes running as well).

Shame about water density, was really looking forward to deep sea Kethane minin on Laythe.

[sdj64]

For a Kethane challenge, Laythe is the moon to worry about, not Tylo since the delta-v one way matters most, and it's likely most of the Kethane on Laythe is underwater. Underwater kethane mining sounds cool, if you can get it to work. Does the end of the KAS winch float or sink? If it sinks, can you try grappling to the sea floor and winching the drill down?

On an unrelated note, I'm trying something like the Jool-5 challenge with Sentar from Krag's Planet Factory. I'm showing my progress in a thread on the mission reports forum, so head here if you want to check it out: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/74300-The-Sentar-5-Challenge

[SSSPutnik]

Will try sinking grappling hook.

Grappling hook - bounces off the surface of the water. Jiggles nicely on the surface.

Anchor - sinks to bottom!!! Win!

Not much use though... Anchor also weighs 1t. Experimenting more.

An orange tank does indeed sink, with a Kethane drill attached. You can balance it too by pumping fuel out. (And even make it float).

It appears, after more experimentation, that for an object to sink, it must be heavy, on an individual basis. Size is not relevant, (other than large objects are usually heavy).

Density does not seem to factor.

I managed to sink:

KW Rocketry 2.5m 20.25t ton tank with drill. It sinks slowly. (One drill acts as a float, so the tank is angled, use two).

Orange tank with drill sinks fast.

So... Why do we need to mine Kethane if we have the mass of a orange tank or another 20t fuel tank + drills + converter etc...

Summary - It's not worth trying to mine Kethane on Laythe as much fun as this is...

(Note dust plume from drilling)

LOL - Ejecting the grappling hook into the water, is like throwing a super ball at concrete. (See pic below of bouncing hook).

Edited April 1, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[dualmaster]

Well, I finally gave up on my recent minimalist attempt. Some physics glitches pushed me over the edge. I still figured I would post the attempt. Hopefully someone (with more patience than me!) can take the ideas and put together a good run. I think my setup is pretty close to capable of completing the challenge although a few of the fuel margins are a little slim.

The mission plan involved a single ship traveling to Jool. Upon entering the sphere of influence, it splits into 3 parts - our Kerbal rides the Laythe lander directly to Laythe. The Vall Lander aerobrakes directly to Vall orbit while the Tylo lander, return stage (with lander can), and Bop lander go directly into Tylo orbit. After landing on Laythe, our Kerbal rides an ion powered transfer stage to Vall -> Pol (EVA to surface) -> Tylo. After landing on Tylo he rides the return stage to Bop before returning to Kerbin. The previous minimalist challenges demonstrated the importance of moving as little mass as possible between moons - an unnecessary mass being moved is wasted dV. Thus the strategy of the Laythe, Vall, and Tylo landers going directly to their moons. Also, for the return stage an ion engine makes the most sense, but I wasn't interested in the looooong burn times. Interesting note though, ion engines are getting a significant boost to their thrust in the next patch, making this much more viable.

Anyways, here are some pictures. At the end of the album are VAB pictures of the individual landers for those interested. In particular I like my Tylo lander idea - for descent it uses the atomic engine that was used for the transfer and capture. I think most other attempts I saw were just throwing it away. This makes good use of it. From a low orbit, it has enough dV to come to a hover just above the ground - the upper stage then detaches and makes the actual landing thus avoiding having to make a really tall lander with the atomic engine. I gave this a few test runs and it's actually a pretty easy landing.

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[Ziv]

dualmaster: thanks for sharing your attempt, it's useful anyway! I was experimenting with the spaceplane solution too, but I hated to build (otherwise) rockets in the SPH... and lately gave up on my attempt too...

Edit: I really liked your idea with the staged ship aerobraking into different moons. Nice one!

Edited April 1, 2014 by Ziv

[dualmaster]

dualmaster: thanks for sharing your attempt, it's useful anyway! I was experimenting with the spaceplane solution too, but I hated to build (otherwise) rockets in the SPH... and lately gave up on my attempt too...

Edit: I really liked your idea with the staged ship aerobraking into different moons. Nice one!

I actually built the rocket portion (without jets/wings) in the VAB. The I copied the .craft file from the VAB folder to the SPH folder. The only weird thing that happened is if I did revert flight it would take me back to the VAB. But otherwise I didn't have any trouble.

I think a few other people used the multiple aerobrakes into orbit - at least one or two of the minimalist attempts did that with their refueling tanks.

[SSSPutnik]

Ziv - The new update adds lots of overpowered stuff - What's your opinion on what this does to the challenge? ie Ions now have 4x the thrust and the mainsail is basically useless now as the new engines way outperform it.

[Ziv]

I was thinking since a long time that stronger/bigger engines are needed into the stock, so I welcome this and they are allowed for the challenge (with version indication). And the 4x thrust for the ions make them useful somewhat...

Edited April 2, 2014 by Ziv

[SSSPutnik]

IMHO ions were already useful, probes and satellites can zip around the whole Jool system using them with minimum weight addition at launch.

[Ziv]

IMHO ions were already useful, probes and satellites can zip around the whole Jool system using them with minimum weight addition at launch.

Yeah, for satellites it was cool but if you added only a little weight they became very boring...

[dualmaster]

Since the ISP of the ion engines haven't changed (I think?) I don't think it changes that much from a challenge standpoint. Although you can easily build a minimalist ion powered lander for Bop and Pol and I think even Vall.

[Alchemist]

Couple more videos from my mission

Arrival to Jool

Laythe

[SSSPutnik]

That's a lot of spare fuel you got there Alchemy. I love your accent by the way, where you from?

[SSSPutnik]

Dupe post.

[Alchemist]

Just visited Bop. Landed at the anomaly. Had some anomalous effects during docking. Something ate my RCS fuel! It's not as dead as you might think!

That's a lot of spare fuel you got there Alchemy. I love your accent by the way, where you from?

I really took a bit too much fuel - after visiting all 5 moons I still had some fuel in the last 2 side stacks I couldn't fit in the rest of the craft. And only after a crazy 1km/s burn I can finally drop the last extra stacks. The craft is flying to Eeloo, maybe I'll visit Dres (or something else), too.

I'm Russian from Latvia. With English being my third language I probably sometimes mix up pronunciation of all 3

[SSSPutnik]

Yeah I didn't think you were Moscow Russian from you accent. I am considering Latvia for holiday next year.

Hi from Australia!

[Mesklin]

Here is my entry for Jool-5 Kethane challenge - "Nautilus":

1. Type of craft: VTOL SSTO with rover possibilites, can land on water

2. Engines: combined atmo/vacuum set of engines - 1 turbojet + 8 rockomax 48-S7 (4 parachutes for landing help on planets with atmo)

3. Mass on launchpad - 14.6 t, fully fueled mass - 27.3 t

4. Travel route: Kerbin -> Minmus (thanks Jasonden for idea) -> Vall -> Bop -> Pol -> Tylo -> Laythe -> Kerbin

5. Full set of kethane equipment: scanner, drill and converter

One turbojet is not enough for vertical ascent and I am using rockomax engines for first kick and inclined flight with help from wings (like convential plane)

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[Jasonden]

Here is my entry for Jool-5 Kethane challenge - "Nautilus":

http://i.imgur.com/EkMzkct.gif

3. Mass on launchpad - 14.6 t, fully fueled mass - 27.3 t

Holy crap -- 15t SSTO -- most impressive! And mobile like a rover on the ground, too . . . Definitely the new mark to beat.

[SSSPutnik]

Mesklin - awesome job, I really like it!

Your image # 66 in the album is really beautiful.

Very inventive design, picking up your turbojet after Tylo was pretty neat. Why not just land Laythe first though?

[Mesklin]

Why not just land Laythe first though?

And drop turbojet on Laythe? Nop, it is not my way. I tried to create real SSTO - it is mind for me: you should return back to Kerbin whole craft without lefted parts. And also Laythe should be after Tylo, because on Laythe I can use aerobraking, no way for land this craft to another body in Jool system

[Ziv]

Here is my entry for Jool-5 Kethane challenge - "Nautilus":

http://i.imgur.com/EkMzkct.gif

1. Type of craft: VTOL SSTO with rover possibilites, can land on water

2. Engines: combined atmo/vacuum set of engines - 1 turbojet + 8 rockomax 48-S7 (4 parachutes for landing help on planets with atmo)

3. Mass on launchpad - 14.6 t, fully fueled mass - 27.3 t

4. Travel route: Kerbin -> Minmus (thanks Jasonden for idea) -> Vall -> Bop -> Pol -> Tylo -> Laythe -> Kerbin

5. Full set of kethane equipment: scanner, drill and converter

One turbojet is not enough for vertical ascent and I am using rockomax engines for first kick and inclined flight with help from wings (like convential plane)

http://imgur.com/a/kPAqU

Hi again Mesklin, wow, what a low-mass Kethane SSTO!!! Congratulation, you have finished the JOOL-5 Kethane Challenge, in two levels at the same time! I liked the idea to help the jet with rockets at the beginning... and the wings, parachutes, rover possibilities, mining, etc... really cool, unique-looking little SSTO, well done!

PS: I think Jeb needs a new hairdresser!

[SSSPutnik]

And drop turbojet on Laythe? Nop, it is not my way. I tried to create real SSTO - it is mind for me: you should return back to Kerbin whole craft without lefted parts. And also Laythe should be after Tylo, because on Laythe I can use aerobraking, no way for land this craft to another body in Jool system

Fair enough comments. Never done a pure SSTO so I would have fueled up at Vall or one of the smaller moons, done Laythe and dumped jets after max altitude. Fantastic job man.

[Speeding Mullet]

I've just updated my thread for the Kethane Expedition. I'm actually ahead of where I am writing now thanks to some long hours in mission control, so I should be in a position to write up the rest soon. I've expanded my ground operations quite a lot so the Vall update is quite long, but the crew is up to their good old mischief again so it's quite fun watching them.

I'll have to start thinking about which mission to do next now, want to pick a challenge as awesome as this one is!

[SSSPutnik]

I'm considering Flying Duna.

[Ravenchant]

Great, well thought out challenge! I will try to do it in forseeable future One question regarding the rules, though. As they are, level 2 seems much harder to do than level 3, seeing one has to lug more mass on the landers- is that intentional?