BSC: Kerbal X - We have a winner!

[Xeldrak]

Well, since stock-craft currently only exist in Sandbox and the career-mode is still in its infancy, I'll got for sandbox and ignore the techtree for now. Since it looks like, it won't be the final tech-tree.

[Carl]

I've read the guidelines. The problem is i have no idea what takes precedence, what's their, or what's in the OP. I'm not even sure what action groups are, (do you mean stages), and it's not clear what the rocket in the OP is actually trying to achieve. Is it just meant to be an SSTMun design, or is that just a design choice and any shot to the Mun will do even if it uses a lot of stages. You need to be MUCH clearer and MUCH more explicit on what is and is not allowed in the OP. This is obviously a competition that's been running a long time through dozens of variations and like most such threads for anything I've encountered anywhere for anything it suffers from the regulars knowing exactly what you mean in every situation but newbies having no clue.

If it's simply got to be able to reach the mon, (and maybe return), whilst being as simple as possible with easy construction understanding and no non-stock. then that needs to be much more clearly outlined in the main post than "duplicate this rocket's capability". Since you know i don;t really know what that rocket A) can do. what the design goals of it are, if you tell me to duplicate something i expect to have to duplicate the design goal's, not just the functionality.

Incidentally why do you think a direct ascent is somehow easier than an orbital transfer? Both, (unless you use the trick i used back before i found mechjeb), require incredibly precise timing that a newbie A) won't know anything about figuring out, and without the kind of detailed knowledge of their rocket Mechjeb calculates isn't very useful. The time window for a successful intercept is tiny. don't launch within a few minute window and you aren't making it without some pretty hefty cross course burns at the mun.

Whilst i could never stick the landing the only non-mechjeb approach i ever got working was to go into a retrograde kerbin orbit, then expand it out to the mun, then circularise at mun altitude and let our mutual velocities meet us up.

Don't get me wrong i'm confidant my design can do it, (direct accent), if i could plan one via mechjeb, it has over 800M/s in the final booster stage when it's jettisoned and gets back to kerbin with several hundred more left in the lander tanks, i just don't see it as the easy solution compared to a traditional homan intercept since both have the same precise timing issue.

[Rhomphaia]

I've read the guidelines. The problem is i have no idea what takes precedence, what's their, or what's in the OP. I'm not even sure what action groups are, (do you mean stages), and it's not clear what the rocket in the OP is actually trying to achieve. Is it just meant to be an SSTMun design, or is that just a design choice and any shot to the Mun will do even if it uses a lot of stages. You need to be MUCH clearer and MUCH more explicit on what is and is not allowed in the OP. This is obviously a competition that's been running a long time through dozens of variations and like most such threads for anything I've encountered anywhere for anything it suffers from the regulars knowing exactly what you mean in every situation but newbies having no clue.

If it's simply got to be able to reach the mon, (and maybe return), whilst being as simple as possible with easy construction understanding and no non-stock. then that needs to be much more clearly outlined in the main post than "duplicate this rocket's capability". Since you know i don;t really know what that rocket A) can do. what the design goals of it are, if you tell me to duplicate something i expect to have to duplicate the design goal's, not just the functionality.

Incidentally why do you think a direct ascent is somehow easier than an orbital transfer? Both, (unless you use the trick i used back before i found mechjeb), require incredibly precise timing that a newbie A) won't know anything about figuring out, and without the kind of detailed knowledge of their rocket Mechjeb calculates isn't very useful. The time window for a successful intercept is tiny. don't launch within a few minute window and you aren't making it without some pretty hefty cross course burns at the mun.

Whilst i could never stick the landing the only non-mechjeb approach i ever got working was to go into a retrograde kerbin orbit, then expand it out to the mun, then circularise at mun altitude and let our mutual velocities meet us up.

Don't get me wrong i'm confidant my design can do it, (direct accent), if i could plan one via mechjeb, it has over 800M/s in the final booster stage when it's jettisoned and gets back to kerbin with several hundred more left in the lander tanks, i just don't see it as the easy solution compared to a traditional homan intercept since both have the same precise timing issue.

Action groups: when building a craft you can assign certain actions to the number keys, so you could build your craft to, for example, deploy its solar panels by pressing 1, etc.

Also think you are confused as to the meaning of direct ascent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_ascent

as opposed to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Orbit_Rendezvous

[Xeldrak]

Well, check the liks Rhomphaia gave you (or the links in my last answert to you) - I too think that you are confused about the meaning of direct ascent. It's more about vehicle design than trajectories.

Also, I'm not sure if you realized, that the "Kerbal X" (the rocket in the OP) is a stock rocket, meaning it comes with every KSP-download. Just start KSP, go into the VAB, click "load", choose "Kerbal X" and you'll have the rocket right before you. I don't se, why you don't know what this rocket is capable of - you can test it out yourself.

I don't know the designgoal of the rocket either - it was built by the guys at SQUAD, just check out the rocket. Maybe you'll suddely realize "now, I can do the much better" or "I can do this just as good but with much fewer parts!" - and you'll have a design goal

[Pulsar]

This is what I'm waiting.

Here's sneak peek of rocket for this challenge. Will come tomorrow.

[700NitroXpress]

So this is my ship build for this challenge. I went with a traditional rocket style look. This thing flies perfectly straight and is very nimble in space without any RCS. The RCS components are on the lander which is tucked away inside a fairing. Once at Mun, the bottom half of the rocket ejects downward and reveals the lander. The lander is capable of landing on its own and achieving orbit again with the assistance of the RCS thrusters. It also has the ability to dock with the top piece which acts as a deorbit and landing engine. Once the fuel is depleted, you just undock it and use the lander's regular engines to finish the landing. Capable of slowing down for a landing at high velocities. 400 m/s at 4000 meter altitude safe limit for Mun high speed landing. Once done on Mun, the player doesn't have to redock with the command ship. You have the option to space walk and then the command ship will take you home. Comes equipped with emergency parachutes. The first set of parachutes deploy and remain attached down to 800 meters and then you eject them and deploy the second set. The second set of parachutes finishes the landing. Only 3 action groups. If a new player doesn't want to dock, they can instead get rid of the lander and use the deorbit engine to deorbit the main command module and land it instead. So this ship can scale with the skill of the player that's flying it. Good for docking practice in orbit too. It can be used in many different ways for landings and has more than enough fuel to get the job done.

Download the Atlas V here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-vTRL2n8wvzSThLQWFWaDctNFU/edit?usp=sharing

Watch a first try test run to Mun and back to Kerban. WARNING SPOILERS FOR MUN

[ethan829]

Here's my entry, the Kerbal XI:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Low part count, easy to fly, and demonstrates asparagus staging just like the original. Perfectly capable of flying a Munar free-return trajectory with a bit of fuel to spare. MechJeb is visible in the screenshots but I was just using it to fine tune the delta-V. It was removed before uploading.

Download here: http://www./?0qk43xbmroofjah

Action group 1 toggles the solar arrays.

Edited November 15, 2013 by ethan829

[Carl]

Ok bear in mind I've only done minimal snadbox'ing in 0.22 and last played regularly around minimuas introduction prior to 0.22 coming out so no i didn't know it was a default rocket, i assumed it was a design you came up.

Regarding direct ascent, maybe I've missed the point in the wiki entry but it sounds like instead of doing the normal orbital climb you just wait till the moon is in the right place and initiate a direct vertical climb till your trajectory intersects. Which still requires you to time the launch pretty dammed precisely. Maybe i'm completly lost.

Also not really relevant to my proposed submission, but how do you assign action groups, i abhor extending a dozen panels of solars manually.

[vetrox]

Regarding direct ascent, maybe I've missed the point in the wiki entry but it sounds like instead of doing the normal orbital climb you just wait till the moon is in the right place and initiate a direct vertical climb till your trajectory intersects. Which still requires you to time the launch pretty dammed precisely. Maybe i'm completly lost.

Direct ascent refers to the landing craft. Not the initial launch to orbit.

It was one of the proposed layouts for the apollo program.

Basically a direct ascent module is one that achieves munar orbit, lands, takes off and returns to earth (or kerbin) in one go without needing to dock or undock from a csm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program#Choosing_a_mission_mode

Scroll down to the "choosing mission mode" part

Also not really relevant to my proposed submission, but how do you assign action groups, i abhor extending a dozen panels of solars manually.

When in the VAB or SPH in the top left there are three buttons. Parts, crew and action groups. If you open up the action groups tab you can assign certain objects there own action groups. The custom action groups refer to the numerical keys. So customaction1 (or whatever its called) would be selected by the "1" key. So when in action group tab. You click the custom group you want the part to be activated with, you then select the part that is on your craft and you specify what you want to happen when you press the corresponding key.

So you would open the tab, select customgroup1, click on your solar panels, then click use activate/deactivate panels (i think) then save the craft

Edited November 14, 2013 by vetrox

[700NitroXpress]

Also not really relevant to my proposed submission, but how do you assign action groups, i abhor extending a dozen panels of solars manually.

To assign action groups, click on the tab next to the parts tab on the top left of the screen close to the center. It will be blue. Once you click on it, click on any part on your ship that you can perform an action on. Like your solar arrays. If the part you clicked on has symmetry, it will group all of the parts for you. Then on the action group tab, you can select what action you want to perform. When you click on custom 1 - 0 it assigns that action group for 1-0 on the num pad on your keyboard. For your solar panels, click on custom 1, then click on the solar panels, then click on toggle on the action group tab. And that's it. When you press 1 on your keyboard, it will deploy and retract all of the solar panels at the same time.

[briansun1]

The TRL(trainer rocket/lander) XV-1X

Has a very high D/v count so even new players can get it into space with no problem. Comes with a interplanetary stage to boost the range even farther. Has landing lights and 4 Gigantor solar panels and 4 RTGs as backup. Also includes a lander that can double as a base. It is 171 parts at launch and 99 parts in orbit with just the space stage and command pod section.(Note: the kraken seems to love this launcher so if it blows up on the launch pad just reload also the ladders do work just keep trying because you might get stuck)

To land descend with "2nd" stage and then land with the command pod section's engine

action groups in the description

once you reach a 75x75 orbit you have about 3000 D/v to use which should be enough to get you to the mun or minmus

pics:

launch

gravity turn

in a 75x75 orbit

mun transfer

mun landing

craft file: Here

Edited November 15, 2013 by briansun1

[Carl]

Thanks for the help/clarification, and yeah my design is nearly direct ascent, it uses the final booster stage to pull the mun de-orbit burn but the bit that lands from there also handles the whole take off, return and re-entry.

And all on Ltv-30 sized tanks and engines, so ner-ner-nah-ner-ner .

[Kasuha]

I renamed my ship to "Kerbal IV Light" and added some images. There's no other change to the ship except the name. I hope it won't cause any problems.

[Mecha Pants]

Just a few small updates to my entry, all as edits to original post.

-Added an Imgur album, replacing the Pad screenshot.

-Started Demo mission in that album, from launch to rendezvous with low mun orbit station,

further album additions will go to a secondary station near minmus, and return.

No changes made to Entry craft file, just making things more attractive.

[mpink]

The Mun Xplorer is a direct ascent Mun orbiter designed to be used with a new game.

The craft description

------Mun-Orbiter-Checklist------

1) Aim away from face

2) Engage SAS (T)

3) Set Engines to 100% (Shift)

4) Set Mun as target from map (M)

5) Lunch (Space)

6) Drop Stages as they runout of fuel (Space)

7) At 15K M (close to last tank drop) aim at the pink dot

8) Continue at 100% until going at 3100 m/s and then cut the power (X)

Dont try landing on the Mun you wont have the fuel to return even if you do manage to land safly with no legs.

Bigger is not better !

To Convert into a Mun lander replace fuselage's with t-400's and the Poodle with an LV-909

-----May-Require-Additional-Parts------

Legs, Ladder, Solar Panels & Fuel Lines

should get a new player into a near mun orbit and give them enough fuel to explore a little and get home.

Im sure the rocket could support a more complex landing craft but we are only going for a look right + kerbal spirit would be to strap some legs to this and we all know how that works out !

There are some more images in the Dir.

Can anyone tell me what sort of staging this is ? Im happy to call it asparagus but im not sure thats right.

Edited November 15, 2013 by mpink

[700NitroXpress]

Can anyone tell me what sort of staging this is ? Im happy to call it asparagus but im not sure thats right.

Looks like asparagus to me, as long as you're dropping two at a time as they run out due to fuel lines pumping the fuel into the rest.

[antbin]

Escape tower ... the cubic strut at the top of the rocket (the one with two separatrons) is off-centered from the rest. (the result makes the command pod veer in one direction during abort, to limit the risks of the rocket hitting the command pod after aborting) - the Abort action group also disable the command pod's torque - so even if you stay with SAS enabled, the escape tower will still work correctly.

That is very clever.

[NeilC]

It's not standard asparagus, since all your engines appear to stay connected. Usually you want to drop the engines so you don't have to carry the added weight. You need peak thrust at launch, as you start to burn fuel your thrust demand gets ever-lower. I'm guessing you either throttle that wayyyy down as you climb, or you start seeing some pretty crazy re-entry effects on ascent.

I'd call this drop-tank-asparagus staging. I think it's less efficient than standard asparagus. Why carry engines you don't need?

[700NitroXpress]

I'd call this drop-tank-asparagus staging. I think it's less efficient than standard asparagus. Why carry engines you don't need?

I use this as my standard method of super lifters. Slack tank or drop tank asparagus doesn't suffer from any deceleration from engine flameout. You can get an increasing TWR to help get really heavy stuff off the planet quickly. It also helps in transfer stages. If you have a low number of nuclear engines, you can carry the fuel in the extra small tanks with 360 liquid fuel. You just drop the empty tanks as you go and don't loose any thrust.

[Dekul]

I use this as my standard method of super lifters. Slack tank or drop tank asparagus doesn't suffer from any deceleration from engine flameout. You can get an increasing TWR to help get really heavy stuff off the planet quickly. It also helps in transfer stages. If you have a low number of nuclear engines, you can carry the fuel in the extra small tanks with 360 liquid fuel. You just drop the empty tanks as you go and don't loose any thrust.

I see what you're going at there, keep all your thrust working throughout and drop empty tanks as you go, its clever, of course as you get nearer to orbit you'd want to consider dropping your low isp engines as well.

[sgt_flyer]

That is very clever.

On my usual escape towers, i usually offcenter the two topmost separatrons by hand (i put one at a time, without symmetry, one of the two farther from the center than the other) - but for the sake of simplicity and an easy way for newcomers to understand, i simply offcentered the cubic strut this time (plus, it gives a visible cue for newcomers )

On the tests i made, using only one separatron or even simply having the smallest angle difference between the two separatrons end up giving too much turning rate (even up to the point to make it tumble).

Slightly offcentering the two separatrons results in a much more adjustable way to control the turn rate

Edited November 15, 2013 by sgt_flyer

[NeilC]

It's the "quickly" part of getting heavy stuff off the planet that makes it less efficient. You don't really want to get going too fast too soon, or you waste a lot of delta-V to drag.

Standard asparagus staging is the most efficient way to launch because it sheds maximum weight as you go, while maintaining a near-liftoff TWR for the whole burn. If a craft has a decent TWR at launch (I shoot for 1.3-1.5), it will have excessive TWR after staging off a few sets of drop tanks. Anything above 2.5-3 really is overkill, if that kind of TWR is needed at any point then the ascent profile is... shall we say "interesting"? If you're going for efficiency it's better to drop the engines with the tanks, decreasing the dry mass and increasing overall delta-V.

Not saying this method is bad, just that it values launch speed over efficiency. We can afford that in KSP!

[Carl]

Ok my entry. Only got a VaB screenshot as my ability to fly stuff without at least mechjebs command cues is very dodgy, however using it's "paint course markers on navball" mode I've successfully proved it's manually controllable in this 2.0 configuration. You are going to need SAS enabled and it's very squashy on the controls, but that does also mean it's hard to overdo the control inputs and throw it out of control. The only handling point to watch for is that you need to correct the roll whilst the outer liquids are firing, it seems to want to roll for reasons i can't explain.

It is however capable of a complete shot to the Mun, Landing, and Return. Just be aware the stage imminently below the lander will have to be jettisoned with fuel left in after initiating the Mun de-orbit burn.

Craft File:

http://www.filedropper.com/kerbalxreplacmentv20

This in simple terms is a Mk 2.0 version of my Class D - N Boosters with my Class A Lander on top, topped by a Sputnik module for actual C&C. The highest tech part on it is the solar panels and rechargeable batteries. Everything else is pretty far down the tech tree and is thus really easy to get in career too.

If anyone wants to do an actual Mun mission with it manually, feel free, i'm not that good without old Mechjeb.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Carl

[Bobnova]

Edited my entry to my new entry. I like this one a lot better, I feel like it fits the Kerbal X quite well.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/58037-BSC-Kerbal-X-Start-building!?p=777305&viewfull=1#post777305

[700NitroXpress]

I see what you're going at there, keep all your thrust working throughout and drop empty tanks as you go, its clever, of course as you get nearer to orbit you'd want to consider dropping your low isp engines as well.

Well, what I do is once the empty tanks are all dropped, I can throttle down to 3/4 or less depending on the payload weight. So with light payloads I like to go about 1/4 thrust and with heavy payloads I usually go about 3/4 thrust. That way the engines use less fuel at the higher altitude and you can easily achieve orbit. At the end of the drop tanks, there's regular asparagus staging, but because you're already going at 3/4 - 1/4 thrust, the engine flameout doesn't cause sudden huge deceleration or potential structural failures. So when you're at orbital altitude, you still have the maximum thrust that you started out with, but you run it at a much lower throttle. Alternatively, you could put different smaller engines on the sides of the big ones, and just shutdown all of the mainstall engines with an action group and then switch over to the more efficient engines. Any left over fuel can be used to escape the Kerban SOI very quickly or transferred to different engines depending what's on the payload.

Here's the method in practice. This is my Leviathan super max payload lifter on the bottom attached to a 144 ton payload. I'm working on improving this model some by lightening the inner engines and separating the orange tanks into two stacks of grey tanks so that way you can drop two grey's at a time and loose the excess weight quicker as you accelerate. I used the same method to lift a payload of 700 tons into orbit. If I had lost thrust at any time, it wouldn't have worked.

If you want to try it for yourself, you can download the Leviathan lifer here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-vTRL2n8wvzQkEtUTBCNHpIMW8/edit?usp=sharing

All you have to do is watch the fuel gauges on one orange tank at a time so you know to eject it. Just right click on the tanks in order as you drop them.

Edited November 15, 2013 by 700NitroXpress