Multi Level Life Support - Drawing board

[dnulho]

I was reading through the ECLSS, IC-LS and TAC-LS threads and was wondering why not build several levels of Life Support that would all run off the same GUI, with the same basic plugin, but would have different cfg files depending on the level of Life Support you wanted, with each stage getting progressively more complex and realistic. I started a basic outline of what I was thinking about and decided to publish it on it's own dedicated thread. Please let me know what you think of the idea. If you have any more pieces/parts/resources/ideas to add to the outline, you are more then welcome to post them and I will do my best to keep the first post up to date.

I. No LS installed

II. Easy LS

Resources:

a) LS Resource

LS Waste

c) Garbage

Parts:

a) Storage for each resource (in w/e sizes)

Regenerator

1) Kerbals consume LSR and produce LSW. Regenerator consumes LSW and produces 95% LSR, 5% Garbage. (Or some ratio that makes sense)

III. Medium (Standard)

Resources:

a) Oxygen

CO2

c) Water

d) Waste Water

e) Biomass?

Parts:

a) Storage for all resources

Regenerator

c) Air scoop?

d) Greenhouse?

1) ECLSS/TAC-LS/IC-LS All currently fall under this category.

IV. Hard (Realistic)

Required Mods:

MFS - RF

Recommended mods:

Realism Overhaul Pack

~ Deadly Reentry

~ Stretchy Tanks

~ RSS

~ MFS - RFRM

Kethane

Interstellar

Suggested mods:

KAS

Resources: (use MFS to store in tanks instead of providing more specialized ones that take up another page in the SPH/VAB)

A1. O2/Oxygen

A2. CO2

A3. H2

A5. LH2

A6. LO2 (MFS equivalent)

A7. N2 (sits in cabin at about 70% right now. Plans to use it to make N2O4 fuel later.)

S1. LiOH Canisters (low efficiency Scrubber, use once and turned to garbage)

S2. 5A Zeolite (higher efficiency Scrubber, dumps into space, see part)

W1. Potable Water

W2. Gray Water/Sea Water/non-potable Water

W3. Sewage

W4. Solid Waste

W5. Ice (Kethane)

F1. Food

F2. Plants (raw Food/low Oxygen recovery/Low growth)

F3. Algae (raw Fuel/high Oxygen recovery/fast growth)

G. Garbage

?M. Medicine (see 3, below)

Flowchart:

1) Kerbals constantly consume the average usage of resources, even though they may not be constantly eating/drinking/using the bathroom/whatever at a specific time. Kerbals die after a certain time without specific resources (O2, Water, Food) or when other resources are too high (CO2).

2) When kerbals go on EVA they bring Oxygen and Monopropellant with them from the ship, they also use whatever CO2 Scrubbing tech their capsule has, LiOH, 5A Zeolite, etc.

3) While we are at it, would it be possible to add some basic diseases that kerbals can be afflicted with? Diarrhea would be a good place to start. Their Sewage and Potable Water usage increases x3, and without medicine they are unable to EVA, or do anything else. 1 unit of medicine heals them and everything returns to normal. Kerbals can become sick if there is gray water but no potable water.

PS I am not a programmer, but a civil engineering guy with some network and hardware familiarity, and have no clue how to write plugin's, only a minimum clue how to write something as simple as a cfg file, and get lost just looking at trying to figure out 3d modeling... any help in all of those areas are greatly appreciated.

Progress,

Edited November 24, 2013 by dnulho
Flowchart v3

[Nahim]

I liked the greenhouse idea.

[Guest]

Good idea. I think you should work with Asmi, his GUI is the best one I've seen. Also, he solved some very important problems that LS systems usually suffer from. If this gets integrated into ECLSS, MFT-style (in there, you can chose between 3 different versions by swapping a few configs), then you won't have to "reinvent the wheel" and solve these very problems yourself.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Guest

[BLUAV8R]

Good idea like the concept and i hope it catches on

[sidfu]

asami already mentioned this same stuff.

[betaking]

I would prefer that life-support mods avoid adding parts. though that's mostly due to the build system encouraging somewhat aesthetically unappealing designs. (tweakables may fix that though, as would part-bays/covers). As for greenhouses, I think they should be kinda heavy and only really work at a certain scale.

[Guest]

//Does anyone know if it's possible to to have a max resource that applies to the sum of several resources?

//Ex: 300 units max, can be 0 Plants:300 Algae, 150:150, 200:100, or any combination you want.

You can do that with Modular Fuel Tanks. With such a complex LS system, they'd be a necessity anyway, otherwise you're looking at an enormous part overhead. Ideally, a customizable, stretchy tank in maybe two versions (radial/inline), a greenhouse and one model for each basic element (intake, compressor, etc.) should be enough.

[dnulho]

I would prefer that life-support mods avoid adding parts...

Thats the beauty if this design, if you want less parts, get a simpler LS system. The only part Tier II adds is a Regenerator, if you have MFT, you wouldn't even need separate tanks.

... As for greenhouses, I think they should be kinda heavy and only really work at a certain scale.

The idea that I am having as I type this ( ) is that there should be several styles of greenhouse, one style is a vacuum greenhouse, this is going to be designed for interplanetary/interstellar ships and would not be for landing, there is then a "low atmosphere" greenhouse that is collapsible and lighter than the vacuum but heavier and less portable than the "high atmosphere" greenhouse. The high atmosphere greenhouse is small and light enough that a kerbal can carry it with KAS, and set it up separate from the ship if you so choose. (there would also be a pipe connector so that you can connect it to the main base/colony and work as a converter. Each type would also be modular or stretchy/procedural, but only in the SPH/VAB. This would allow the most flexibility and realism while keeping the part count to a minimum.

in regards to scale: The idea is that they do only work at a certain scale. Using a "tech levels" such as that implemented in MFT, and perhaps a conversion efficiency that is slightly exponential (base O2 production^#Plants(or Algae)/1000 or similar) should work.

You can do that with Modular Fuel Tanks. With such a complex LS system, they'd be a necessity anyway, otherwise you're looking at an enormous part overhead. Ideally, a customizable, stretchy tank in maybe two versions (radial/inline), a greenhouse and one model for each basic element (intake, compressor, etc.) should be enough.

So with MFT you can change the size of the different tanks while in flight? I am specifically looking at the greenhouses as you can grow anything in them: Plants, Algae, some other Biomass that we might come up with, but the greenhouse only has a limited space to grow them in.

Here's an example: You take off from KSP with the greenhouse empty, and stowed. After flying to Minmus and landing, you deploy the Greenhouse and start cultivating plants. Your next mission you bring 3 more kerbals and a kethane mining platform. The plants that were handling the CO2 load of the previous crew can't cope with the increased CO2 production and you decrease the plant production as you have plenty of food, and begin producing some Algae instead. Does MFT do/allow that?

Progress,

Edited November 17, 2013 by dnulho

[isdel]

I hope it's OK to post this here. Don't mean to threadjack or anything, but it doesn't really deserve its own thread yet and I didn't think it'd fit the main Ioncross thread; hopefully this one has the attention of people interested in complex life support.

I started trying to implement the system below in Ioncross last week. It didn't occur to me to use MFS at the time so it's currently using retextured stock parts (and yeah, there's a fair amount of part overhead, though it only fills up slightly under one page of the VAB for me at the moment).

It's not quite the Hard setting above - while I'd love to have something like that, it would probably require a custom plugin. I don't plan on implementing the ruleset exactly as in the flowchart, since, for example, there's probably not much point to including stuff like methane if it's going to get vented immediately anyway. I'm also not sure yet how to balance stuff like O2 candles vs. just bringing up oxygen or how to implement fuel cells without making solar panels redundant.

I didn't include food production as I didn't give that part much thought yet. I guess a greenhouse part is the only real answer, though it still gives me some pause as it's the only element that can't really be modeled on existing real-world examples.

[Guest]

If you're going to use MFS, methane can be usable as cheap rocket fuel. And yeah, food production would require greenhouses.

[pina_coladas]

The whole point of modeling a sabatier reactor is for methane-fueled mars missions imo. So no you don't always have to dump it!

[dnulho]

@isdel

I really like your flowchart, and will probably build one for hard mode. I also like the Sabatier Reactor/Methane and hope you don't mind if I steal/use it.

[dnulho]

... I'm also not sure yet how to balance stuff like O2 candles vs. just bringing up oxygen or how to implement fuel cells without making solar panels redundant. ... I guess a greenhouse part is the only real answer, though it still gives me some pause as it's the only element that can't really be modeled on existing real-world examples

Fuel Cells require heavy resources that have to be carried along, while solar panels do not. Weight vs power generation argument.

There is at least one example of a greenhouse/closed system biosphere that worked for two years.

Biosphere 2

NOTE: Updated the flowchart to v2. Added Sabatier Reactor and related resources, cleaned up and sorted lines and links.

[isdel]

I've been working on my ruleset for the past week, it's more or less feature complete. I've just started a save to playtest it and check out the balance. It's an RSS and RT2 save though so it's taking a while; I haven't actually put any crew in space yet. I'm realizing now I probably made the modules way too heavy.

Oh, by the way, I should point out there's a screw-up in my flowchart, the Sabatier reactor should output water in place of oxygen. I hadn't read the article in a while and goofed.

[dnulho]

Thanks for pointing out the error, I had skimmed the article, but hadn't read it in-depth...

Updated the flowchart to v2.1

[mvronsky]

Why can't solid waste go into garbage?

Anyways, great idea!

I currently do not use any life support system, mostly because I think they are too hard to manage.

This might be a great introduction to life support!

Edited November 28, 2013 by mvronsky

[Fail-Man 3D]

Whether or not methane will be usable in engines, why not allow pyrolysis* to hydrogen and carbon?

The converter could store PyrolyticCarbon as a non-transferrable resource, with conversion efficiency decreasing as carbon accumulates; a Kerbal will eventually have to EVA to go and chisel the carbon out (PyrolyticCarbon-->Garbage, initiated from right-click menu, canceled if Kerbal drifts beyond a certain minimum distance).

Maybe even unlock a Bosch reactor at a higher tech node (draws more power than pyrolysis reactor alone, but still less then Sabatier reactor + pyrolysis chamber; doesn't have to be manually cleaned as often; produces water+ElementalCarbon instead of oxygen+methane).

* This should, ideally, require a large amount of power and generate lots of waste heat. KSP Interstellar already has a fairly mature implementation of thermal power & waste heat, so I'd suggest getting permission to integrate with it.

[DerekL1963]

You had me until you added "suggested mods". Hard Mode life support should stand independent of any other part or plug-in, let the user choose how hard his own Hard Mode is. (Which also allows for incrementally increasing how hard the game is.)

[dnulho]

Whether or not methane will be usable in engines, why not allow pyrolysis* to hydrogen and carbon?

The converter could store PyrolyticCarbon as a non-transferrable resource, with conversion efficiency decreasing as carbon accumulates; a Kerbal will eventually have to EVA to go and chisel the carbon out (PyrolyticCarbon-->Garbage, initiated from right-click menu, canceled if Kerbal drifts beyond a certain minimum distance).

Maybe even unlock a Bosch reactor at a higher tech node (draws more power than pyrolysis reactor alone, but still less then Sabatier reactor + pyrolysis chamber; doesn't have to be manually cleaned as often; produces water+ElementalCarbon instead of oxygen+methane).

* This should, ideally, require a large amount of power and generate lots of waste heat. KSP Interstellar already has a fairly mature implementation of thermal power & waste heat, so I'd suggest getting permission to integrate with it.

THe pyrolysis reaction is one of adding heat to a fuel, without the presence of O2. As such, there could be an onboard "Heater unit" that converts EC to heat if needed, but you can also use heat that is produced (in a reactor for example) to heat it. The efficiency of the chamber is also directly related to its temperature.

A Sabatier Reactor converts CO2(g) + 4 H2(g) -> CH4(g) + 2 H2O(l). The pyrolysis reactor then converts CH4(g) -> C(s) + 2 H2(g). The complete reaction is then CO2(g) + 4 H2(g) -> 2 H2O(l) + 2 H2(g) + C(s)

A Bosch Reaction outputs CO2(g) + 2 H2(g) → C(s) + 2 H2O(g). Same reaction in 1 step instead of 2, perhaps different amounts of needed and waste energy (heat), but same basic principle. I will definitely hold onto the idea of a Bosch reactor, but not implement it into this flowchart as it doesn't add any new concepts or reactions.

You had me until you added "suggested mods". Hard Mode life support should stand independent of any other part or plug-in, let the user choose how hard his own Hard Mode is. (Which also allows for incrementally increasing how hard the game is.)

There are several mods that would break this idea if they were not added. MFS is probably the biggest one. not sure whether RF should be required or not. I would have to study the necessity of KSPI (and its heat mechanics) in more detail to determine how critical it is. To some extent I do agree with you that the number of mods that you add allows you to incrementally increase the difficulty of the game. However, that can very easily be done with other things as well. I am not going to try to add G-force mechanics (DRE), Probe control (RT2), or realistic flight mechanics (FAR). If you want to add those, be my guest. It is my goal with RLS to complement the Realism Overhaul pack with realistic life support. The RO pack already requires MFS-RFRM, so why not this one as well. On top of that, if you want a "less" hard life support downgrade to the medium LSS.

UPDATE: Flowchart to v3, Mod lists

Progress,