100% stock Mun mission designs and .craft files (version 0.13.x and 0.14)

[closette]

I wonder if it\'s better to use less than 100% throttle in the lower atmosphere as well, to reduce drag. It worked that way for the Space Shuttle, and they would call 'GO for throttle-up' some time after launch. And I kind of want to do that too, because it sounds cool when I show KSP to my friends!

But if you pitch over somewhere between 18K and 24K you are probably 'close enough' to optimal. After about 35K, applying delta-V in the direction you are already heading (the yellow velocity vector on the Nav ball) will maximize your spacecraft\'s kinetic energy, and drag will become less and less of a factor as you ascend.

Once your Apoapsis is above the atmosphere (at least 70K and I used 90K for margin), it is optimal to coast un-powered until just before apoapsis and then apply full thrust along your near-horizontal velocity to reach orbital speed. Your periapsis will then rise rapidly to above the atmosphere and around you go! (I realize you may know this already if you\'ve headed out to the Mun).

BTW Rickenbacker, I too found that your rockets would roll when I tried to pitchover. Not sure why, they look perfectly stable and symmetrical to me, and the basic design is great.

Perhaps a tear-down and re-build is in order. (That\'s something that is a real pain for me to do with my laptop\'s small screen and trackpad).

[Rickenbacker]

I think the rolling moment could be due to the fact that the RCS nozzles and the inertia wheels are all in the nose of the craft and the rear is slightly asymmetrical. I notice that I get less of a roll when I\'ve jettisoned the first stage...

Your launch strategy is very close to my own, though I sometimes let the apoapsis drift up higher so I can use a higher time acceleration for my first orbit . Still not sure about how to do the launch though. My gut feeling is that getting through the thickest air as fast as possible is best, but then why do NASA rockets all start out slow. This needs a greater (and more mathematical) mind than my own .

Perhaps just keep the current rocket, and add a 'kicker' stage at the bottom with lots of SRBs, to get the more efficielt liquid fuel engines up a few thousand meters before ignition... But of course that means building an even bottom stage, so nothing breaks off on the pad. I already have problems with the weight breaking off engines - hence the decouplers before the first stage. Without them I lose three engines before launch.

[Rickenbacker]

More tinkering this morning, produced no useful results. But I did try to take off with full throttle all the way to orbit, and actually had MORE fuel left when I got to the mun. So no throttling back from now on .

[Darkshadow]

Thanks for posting your design and showing examples of the stages, it was really helpful in finally designing a full craft of my own to get to the mum.

Strangely enough the craft I had been working on had a very similarly designed lifting stage to yours, great minds work alike, then from you\'re advice on landers I changed from a 3 wing to a 4 wing design, then further modification after a few disastrous landings that left Kerbals stranded on the moon, I finally had a successful design that uses the same parts for the TMI, landing and takeoff and only switching to the 'RSC tower' for the TKI stage. Then for re-entry I eject the remainder of the fuel.

My Munar lander module:

Returning Home:

This lander has been successful both missions in returning our kerbalnauts home, (though first time counts only half counts) I touched down too hard on a hill and lost one of my landing legs, with moments to react I boosted away from the surface so I guess it only counted as touching the mun and not landing.

[closette]

Very cool, Darkshadow. We\'re getting a pretty good collection of 100% stock Mun vehicles in this thread!

Yours looks fairly straightforward, but very original in design. Would you please post a .craft file to go along with the pictures?

Thank you.

[Darkshadow]

Here are the craft files, I\'ve got both the lander on its own and the lander plus lifter, as it is a horror to pilot towards the end of the first stage the ship develops an uncontrollable spin ??? luckily the ship has a large enough moment of inertia to stop it from actually flipping upside down, its not my proudest design but it\'s what got me to the mun.

lander on the other hand is a joy to fly, and hopefully someone can design a better lifting rocket for it.

[Velociraptor121]

How do you install it on a mac, im not much that good with this.

[Kryten]

Put the .craft files in the ships folder in your KSP directory (not the KSP .app folder).

[closette]

Thank you very much Darkshadow, and very considerate of you to include 2 versions so that users can easily transplant their own lifter under your lander. I\'ll have a go with both of them later today, looking forward to it.

(Note to self - gotta clear out my Ships directory of all the failed designs so I can keep these successful ones near the top of the list).

We\'re all going to have a lot of rebuilding to do when the next version comes out and these current .craft files fail to work with it! But at least being 100% stock, we won\'t have it as bad as the add-on pack folks will.

[Kosmo-not]

I guess I will present my Mun rocket.

First stage gets it into orbit, requiring a very small burn from the muncraft to circularize the orbit. The winglets on the side fuel tanks are just for show (you gotta have something good to look at). The craft has plenty of fuel to land on the Mun and return home.

[closette]

Nice spacecraft, Kosmo, and plenty of fuel reserve! I tried it and have a couple of suggestions by way of feedback from an inexperienced user:

- Launch went well, although I had to throttle back a wee bit to avoid overheating. On pitch-over at 20km, the spacecraft started to roll as well. With no RCS and all that inertia it took me a while to get it back under control and heading 090. Some active tail fins on the bottom might help, also.

- I reached the Mun with a bunch of fuel - youjust have to watch when to jettison the side tanks. I broke the lander both times I tried though, and the rocket fell over, and so I would recommend 4 fins/legs, not 3. It seemed to make a difference with my lander. And again, an 'RCS stage' would allow klutzes like me to abort a bad landing and return the 3 heroes safely home with any luck.

Thank you for sharing your unique creation - glad to add it to my library. If you make modifications please post the results / .craft files.

[Vollesocke]

here is my clunky design very Kerbal with exploding SRB in the first two stages. Should have enough fuel for an easy ride.

[bandit4910]

Well I launched your space craft and after a few seconds of flight your engines over heated...

Anyway to stop this?

[Darkshadow]

Well I launched your space craft and after a few seconds of flight your engines over heated...

He did say exploding SRB, only way to get them to explode is overheat them

very Kerbal with exploding SRB in the first two stages.

As you have no control over SRB the only way to prevent them overheating is to change the design and move the SRBs further apart.

[Kosmo-not]

Closette, I have taken note of your concerns and suggestions. As such, I have redesigned the lander a little.

The side fuel tanks are now designed to stay will you all the way to landing on the Mun surface. The return stage has one fuel tank removed and replaced by an RCS 'liferaft' which will get you home from the Mun if something happens with the engine. The single fuel tank, when full, provides enough delta-V to get you home.

For the liftoff stage, I added 6 SRBs and 2 RCS tanks. With all the RCS thrusters, it chews through those tanks pretty quickly. You should only use them when the engines are not running. The single gimballed engine in the middle provides enough directional control while engines are on.

Let me know what you think of the new design.

[closette]

Cool, I\'ll give it a try when I get a chance and report back, thanks for taking the time to modify your spacecraft.

BTW I really like the upper stage\'s twin double side tanks, more aerodynamic and lighter than mounting all 4 separately as I did.

Also, they remind me of the warp nacelles on Zephram Cochrane\'s Phoenix (image attached below). I\'ll put on Steppenwolf\'s Magic Carpet Ride as I go for TMI.

/geek off!

[Kosmo-not]

Ok, I think I\'m done modifying this munar craft. The lower stage was modified, removing 7 fuel tanks. It now has stages for the lower section to release fuel stacks and engines. The RCS tanks in the lower stage are still there, but with the increased maneuverability that comes with getting rid of dead weight, I doubt they will need to be used.

Fly this thing at full thrust all the way to MECO.

Staging timetable: (at continuous full thrust)

00:25 - SRB separation

01:22 - Jettison of 3 fuel stacks with their corresponding engines

04:15 - Jettison of the 3 other radial fuel stacks with their engines

Here\'s an ascent plan for getting to orbit:

16km - 60 degrees

24km - 45

32km - 30

40km - 20

50km - 10

60km - 0

Continue burning until apoapsis is at 100km. Make final burn at apoapsis. Welcome to Kerbin orbit!

The radial tanks stay on for landing, as the wings are the 'landing legs'. You may detach them after liftoff from the Mun surface, or leave them on as there is plenty of fuel. Lander features an RCS stage if you need it in case of emergency.

That\'s pretty much it. It will get you there and back again no problem.

[closette]

Hey Kosmo, you\'ll never be 'done', and when you think you are, version 0.14 will come along and we\'l all have to rebuild our .craft files. And a new drag model will probably force design changes on us all just to get into Kerbin orbit!

I\'ll try your new Mk 4 craft. I found that Kosmo Zero 2 gave me less fuel to mess around with than your first posted design. In fact I managed to run out of fuel just above the Munar surface, twice,, which doesn\'t say much about my skill in this game! I\'ve been using it to test free-return trajectories as well.

I\'ll report back on your Mk 4 when I get a chance.

[Darkshadow]

hey closette have you flight tested my lander yet, it would be good to have some critical feedback.

Also I tried building a new lifter but it is a monster that sufferers the same but worse problems as my previous lifter, symmetry becomes difficult after a certain height as the ships get so heavy you need to add more and more parts to distribute the weight.

[closette]

@Darkshadow

Yes I did test out your Lunar Quad lander, sort of! I had trouble with the lifter (my poor piloting skills on a tiny laptop) so I\'ve been playing with it on Kerbin - trying to land on top of the VAB, etc. In Kerbin gravity it\'s a stable and flyable platform, and makes for a great Lunar Lander Research Vehicle (LLRV) as used by Neil Armstrong and others.

One would need a whole day to explore the various excellent Mun-capable designs here, and mix-and-match the various lifters and landers, but please don\'t wait for me (or anyone else)!

The fact that so many cool 100% stock spacecraft have been posted under my contribution\'s thread is very flattering to me. I hope that newcomers to the game find the .craft files useful before flying off to try all the add-on packs out of frustration. As is apparent, 'there\'s more than one way' to get to the Mun and back.

I knew there was a strong 100% stock following of the game, which is extremely well designed to give us just enough resources to develop a Mun capable program along lines which closely follow that of US and Soviet (and now Chinese) space programs.

[Kosmo-not]

Darkshadow, I just flight tested your design. Here is my critique:

Liftoff stage:

Craft got out of control not too long after launch. I added some struts, and that fixed it. In my opinion, the wings on the bottom stage don\'t really do anything, as they are near the center of mass. My suggestion would to replace 3 engines with vectored thrust engines. This would provide all the maneuverability you need, and you will still have plenty of thrust.

Middle section:

Hard to maneuver. I suggest moving the TMI engine down a stage to fire off with the other 3 and replacing it with a vectored thrust engine. Use fuel lines to pump fuel from the bottom of the radial tank stack to the center stack. This will keep the TMI stage fully fueled, and allow you more thrust and maneuverability for the kerbin orbit insertion stage.

Lander:

I loved the lander! Has plenty of fuel for me to insert into munar orbit, deorbit, and land. I still had a tiny bit over half fuel when I landed. I know the RCS stage can get me home, as I\'ve done the same before. I really like the wide landing square the wings provide, and also the low CG. No way you can tip this baby over!

I hope this really helps you to make your craft highly successful.

[Darkshadow]

Thanks Kosmo, I\'ve never really tried using the vectored engines.

[Alchemist]

That\'s mine. Style is similar.

This one is the lightest version with just enough fuel for landing (from optimal trajectory).

[Seanoog]

A wonderful thread.

An a Heaven for us Stock/Purist Astronaughts.

He did say exploding SRB, only way to get them to explode is overheat them

As you have no control over SRB the only way to prevent them overheating is to change the design and move the SRBs further apart.

In response to this problem, with exploding SRB\'s is to add winglets.

By adding AV-T1 -Winglets, Green none moving kind. they increase surface area an increase heat dissapation.

With example design, all Eight SRB\'s (2x4Cluster) overheat, an achieve 50% of Overheating scale but dont explode.

I regularily use 4 SRB\'s in Clusters on my Ship designs, to give them a little kick start.

[tarspaceheel]

Just accomplished my first successful Mun landing (and return) using the OP\'s design. It controls like a dream, and was even stable enough that I was able to park the lander on the Munar surface even after accidentally breaking off one of the four winglets. Thanks!

Incidentally, is there any secret to making a stable rocket design? Even with copious use of the symmetry tool, I still seem to wind up with rockets that either push my SAS past its limits, break apart before escaping the atmosphere, or require far too much fuel to establish a stable orbit.