Kerbin to Duna, from Duna to Kerbin

[Epthelyn]

You may have landed on Duna, you may have landed on Duna and returned to Kerbin, but have you ever done this:

1) Launch a rocket to Duna and land it there.

2) Go back to the VAB/SPH, load the rocket you just launched to Duna

3) Build a launch and transfer stage capable of getting the rocket from part 1 to Duna and landing there without using any part of that rocket, including fuel.

4) Lift off from Duna with an (almost) identical rocket from the one you launched from Kerbin in part 1 and return home

To submit an entry, you must provide proof that all 3 of those conditions have been completed.

If that's badly explained, please say so. It's not the simplest concept to put into words

Why Duna?

Anything that can launch from the surface of Kerbin and get to Duna can, unless you really mess up somehow, get from the surface of Duna to Kerbin

No challenge would be complete without rules:

You may not:

- Use Kethane: The idea is to have the rocket on the surface of Duna with 100% of its fuel anyway, so you shouldn't actually need this.

- Cheat: Obviously. To clarify this means no Hyperedit, no unbalanced .cfg edits, no Alt-F12 etc.

- Make use of docking - You can use ports as decouplers, but you can't move parts of a craft around or rendezvous in orbit or anything like that

You may:

- Use MechJeb: The hardest part of this challenge is launching a fairly large payload and landing that on a planet, which requires engineering as well as an ability to fly a rocket. MechJeb isn't always as careful as real people and it can't build for you. Any entry where the only non-stock part is MechJeb is counted as a stock rocket.

- Use any (balanced) mods: There'll be a separate scoreboard for Stock and Mod crafts

- Add any parts to your original Kerbin -> Duna rocket in order to enable the transfer and safe landing of it. However, any parts which aid propulsion must be removed prior to leaving the surface of Duna; any landing legs and struts can stay, since it's not practical to have to remove them

- Use fuel from your payload rocket to achieve transfer and/or landing: Your score will incur a penalty (see scoring) for doing this, but you can do it

- Use a probe

Clarification:

Rule 3 of "You may" says that you may add parts to a craft in order to perform the transfer of the payload from Kerbin to Duna, even if those parts were not on the original rocket you took from Kerbin to Duna (i.e. the payload).

This effectively means that if you need struts to hold it together, structural trusses to put struts on and landing gear to land safely, you can use them.

However, the fuel capacity and engines of the original rocket must remain identical; even with extra weight you'll have no problem leaving Duna.

Scoring:

Scoring will be done in 2 parts, and 2 parts for stock and mod crafts. The main score will be the mass of the original rocket as it was on the launchpad on Kerbin. For the sake of convenience, this can include launch clamps.

The second score will be 'achievement score', based on the list of achievements found below.

Scores will be displayed on the scoreboard as

[Playername] - Main Score - (Achievement Score)

Main Score:

1) Take the mass of the Kerbin -> Duna rocket as it is on the launchpad at KSC

2) When the rocket is on the surface of Duna, calculate the percentage of LiquidFuel remaining, with all transfer and landing stages removed. Subtract this percentage from 100%, then double it. Multiply your mass by this percentage. As an example, if you land with 95% LiquidFuel, you must multiply your mass score by 90% (i.e. subtract 10%).

3) If any parts of the original craft which are broken in transit or upon landing, subtract 50%

Completing this challenge with a rocket of mass 211.2t will earn you 211.2 points.

Completing this challenge with a rocket of mass 200t, but landing with 90% fuel and breaking a couple of fuel tanks on landing would earn you 200*0.9*0.5 = 90 points

Achievement Score:

A list of achievements each with different point allocations. These are separate from the main (mass) score, so don't add them to it.

Taking Passengers: +20 points for every Kerbal, including the original Kerbal

No Need to Improve: Land your rocket on Duna exactly as it was when it left Kerbin, launchclamps excluded, (applies once all transfer and landing stages are removed) - +800

They Told Me There Would Be Oxygen: Launch the original rocket from Kerbin making use of jet engines. You'll have to return to Kerbin with them still attached - +10 per jet engine on the craft

Mirroring: Launch from Duna at 0° 6′ 9″ S, 74° 34′ 31″ W - +100

Similar Systems: In the first stage, go from Kerbin -> Mun -> Duna. In the second stage, go from Duna -> Ike -> Kerbin +200

Two Planets, Two Moons: Kerbin -> Mun -> Ike -> Duna, then Duna -> Ike -> Mun -> Kerbin - +300 (does not stack with Similar Systems)

Moar Struts? No.: Have no struts leading from the launch, transfer and landing stage to the payload - +400 (May cause considerable explosions)

Jeb, Bill and Bob: Complete second stage of the challenge with Jeb, Bill and Bob - +10

Nuclear Non-Proliferation: No nuclear engines or RTGs - +50

Limited Size: Use only 1m parts (or less) - +200

Landing on Engines: Drop your return rocket onto Duna without landing legs by landing on at least one engine - +200 (Does not stack with No Need to Improve)

Overcomplications: Have your Kerbin -> Duna rocket take a rover to Duna. This rover must remain part of the payload for the second part of the challenge and be released on Kerbin - +300

Homecoming: Return to Kerbin by landing at KSC - +100

Perfect Mirroring: Launch from Duna at 0° 6′ 9″ S, 74° 34′ 31″ W, and return to Kerbin by landing at KSC - +250 (Does not stack with Homecoming and Mirroring)

I Prefer Runways: Make the initial trip to Duna with an SSTO aircraft launched from the KSC runway. You may transfer it into the VAB to transfer it to Duna for the second stage (hint: Subassembly) - +300 (Stacks with They Told Me...)

Slowing Down the Hard Way: Complete the challenge without making use of a single parachute during any stage of the challenge - +500

Dark Side: All landings carried out whilst doing this challenge are at night - +200

Landing Nearby: Bring your second flight to Duna and land within 10km of the first flight - +200

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Scoreboard - [Playername] - Main Score - (Achievement Score)

Stock:

- Epthelyn - 78.2 (70)

- Seanner - 6.053 (1850)

Mod:

- No Entries

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"Where's your entry?"

Right here:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Full details on page 3.

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If you have any questions, improvements or criticisms, let me know

Edited December 3, 2013 by Epthelyn

[Francesco]

Now that's a challenge!

But could you explain these point better:

- "any parts which aid propulsion must be removed prior to leaving the surface of Duna"

- "For the sake of convenience, this can include launch clamps" --- so does launch clamps weight count or not?

- "you may add parts to a craft in order to perform the transfer of the payload from Kerbin to Duna, even if those parts were not on the original rocket you took from Kerbin to Duna" --- what is the "original rocket"? you mean the stage(s) used for the two Kerbin > Duna transfers have to be identical?

So you would need a rocket with some 5600+ m/s delta-v for Kerbin > Duna, another 2200+ for Duna > Kerbin, and another 5600+ for Kerbin > Duna again?

[Ravenchant]

Ooh, this should be interesting! I just made something that should come close to completing the challenge, but I don't have the time to test it. Will probably post results tomorrow.

Just for clarification - If the bottom stage of the original rocket has landing legs, can we extend those for the Duna landing of the second rocket? Or does it count as "using" the parts?

[Epthelyn]

Yes, you can do that. There's no reason you can't add additional landing legs anyway, provided you don't intend to get one of the achievements.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Epthelyn

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

What counts as balanced mods? I find that a warpdrive is balanced if I cheat a lot.

Always give examples otherwise, you can find yourself with people like me.

[Epthelyn]

I can't account for all eventualities, nor I believe can any other challenge-setter short of just saying to use your own judgement and you're not sure, ask.

With the given example, Warp Drive would be something that makes the transfer a lot easier, but really won't help you with landing a 100t+ rocket on the surface of a planet. If warp drive can make ascent from Kerbin a million times easier, then definitely not.

[Ravenchant]

Okay, the first one works well. Now to put it onto Duna!

At under 6 tons, it should be doable.

[Epthelyn]

Well that's...

I was trying to get a small craft as the demonstration of concept, but never did I consider anything THAT small

[Dr. RichMoneyBucks]

This is so confusing

[Epthelyn]

If that's badly explained, please say so. It's not the simplest concept to put into words

I did warn you...

[Lions]

This is so confusing

This was me when i read the challenge

lol

[Liowen]

*Edit: Sorry some how I missed the part about not docking the craft >< *

Edited December 2, 2013 by Liowen

[Seanner]

Here is my entry, the design of the original craft inspired by Ravenchant's (rocko+small tank+light legs):

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Original craft mass was at 100% = 6053 kg. I did quicksave and reload several times to aim the landing back at KSC as I have no idea how to do that otherwise.

[Epthelyn]

Alright, so 6053kg = 6.053 points for mass, since you had all the fuel left and didn't break anything.

You'll have to add anything from the achievements list that you did which I can't tell whether you did or not, but:

Nuclear Non-Profiliferation: +50

Limited Size: +200

Homecoming: +100

Slowing Down the Hard Way + 500

So your total score is 6.053 (850).

I think that last one is true anyway; I don't see parachutes and you would easily be able to land without them anyway.

Since I still haven't submitted an entry (university work stacked up in the week after I posted the challenge), there is an example of what to do.

Good job

*Edit: Sorry some how I missed the part about not docking the craft >< *

Rule now underlined and further explanation added. If you want to just submit your entry anyway that would be fine; it'd be interesting to see how people achieve this with docking, even if that wasn't the intention.

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For anyone saying "What?" and being confused, here's what you have to do, step by step.

1) Launch a rocket to Duna and land it there.

2) Go back to the VAB/SPH, load the rocket you just launched to Duna

3) Build a launch and transfer stage capable of getting the rocket from part 1 to Duna and landing there without using any part of that rocket, including fuel.

4) Lift off from Duna with an (almost) identical rocket from the one you launched from Kerbin in part 1 and return home

To be honest you could just only pay attention to the first few lines of my challenge post and the rules section. The rest is the scoring system and achievements which it would be nice for people to calculate themselves but I can fairly accurately total up if pictures are provided.

The challenge idea was inspired by the 'Orange tank to orbit, to orbit' challenge which appeared on Reddit(?) a while back. It's just further to go but not necessarily with anything as big as an orange tank.

Change words and you get "Rocket to Duna, to Duna. Then return".

See...it's hard to explain, but an actual challenge with a real goal to achieve

Edited December 2, 2013 by Epthelyn

[Lions]

oki i get it, that is so mind gaboobling

so the bigger you go, the better? because the dude above ^^ has a mini mini mini mini rocket

[Epthelyn]

Exactly. The best way to complete the challenge is to make a small rocket and go through the steps I've set. If you want more points, you'll have to lift larger and larger payloads to Duna AND land them there.

[Liowen]

Alright, so 6053kg = 6.053 points for mass, since you had all the fuel left and didn't break anything.

You'll have to add anything from the achievements list that you did which I can't tell whether you did or not, but:

Nuclear Non-Profiliferation: +50

Limited Size: +200

Homecoming: +100

Slowing Down the Hard Way + 500

So your total score is 6.053 (850).

I think that last one is true anyway; I don't see parachutes and you would easily be able to land without them anyway.

Since I still haven't submitted an entry (university work stacked up in the week after I posted the challenge), there is an example of what to do.

Good job

Rule now underlined and further explanation added. If you want to just submit your entry anyway that would be fine; it'd be interesting to see how people achieve this with docking, even if that wasn't the intention.

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For anyone saying "What?" and being confused, here's what you have to do, step by step.

1) Launch a rocket to Duna and land it there.

2) Go back to the VAB/SPH, load the rocket you just launched to Duna

3) Build a launch and transfer stage capable of getting the rocket from part 1 to Duna and landing there without using any part of that rocket, including fuel.

4) Lift off from Duna with an (almost) identical rocket from the one you launched from Kerbin in part 1 and return home

To be honest you could just only pay attention to the first few lines of my challenge post and the rules section. The rest is the scoring system and achievements which it would be nice for people to calculate themselves but I can fairly accurately total up if pictures are provided.

The challenge idea was inspired by the 'Orange tank to orbit, to orbit' challenge which appeared on Reddit(?) a while back. It's just further to go but not necessarily with anything as big as an orange tank.

Change words and you get "Rocket to Duna, to Duna. Then return".

See...it's hard to explain, but an actual challenge with a real goal to achieve

I will see if I can modify my lander I have in such a way to get into orbit from Kerbin, it can almost do it now, but I think I have an idea. If I can dock with my unmanned tug all should be ok then. Right now I am on a different thing so I will see later tonight what I can come up with.

[carazvan]

Hmm .... would an SSTO going to Duna and back qualify for this?

[Epthelyn]

Hmm .... would an SSTO going to Duna and back qualify for this?

No. You can take an SSTO to Duna as the first bit, but to complete the challenge you'd have to then get that SSTO to Duna without using actually using it (i.e. you'd need a really big rocket), then get the SSTO back by itself.

You need 2 rockets to do this. One that you want to get there in the first place, then a 2nd one which includes the 1st one and which will be considerably bigger.

Even if you have a rocket that can go Kerbin -> Duna -> Kerbin you can't use it exactly as you would usually do.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Epthelyn

[Seanner]

Oh right, here are the categories:

-- No Need to Improve: Land your rocket on Duna exactly as it was when it left Kerbin, launchclamps excluded, (applies once all transfer and landing stages are removed) - +800

I'm not sure if I understand that one. Does it imply SSTO? Or does it imply not using the payload rocket for any purpose along the way? If the latter than I did that one otherwise obviously not.

-- Moar Struts? No.: Have no struts leading from the launch, transfer and landing stage to the payload -

My only struts were from launch to launch.

-- Nuclear Non-Proliferation: No nuclear engines or RTGs - +50

-- Limited Size: Use only 1m parts (or less) - +200

-- Landing on Engines: Drop your return rocket onto Duna by landing on at least one engine - +200 (Does not stack with No Need to Improve)

(though doesn't stack if I got first one)

-- Homecoming: Return to Kerbin by landing at KSC - +100

-- Slowing Down the Hard Way: Complete the challenge without making use of a single parachute during any stage of the challenge - +500

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So the ones you didn't mention are struts, land on engines, and no improve (if applicable).

[Pds314]

Reminds me of the Reddit challenge were you take a full orange tank to orbit using one vehicle, then take THAT vehicle to orbit full using another.

There was also a "Scott Manley mode" for that challenge, which involved taking the ship that lifted the first ship that lifted the tank to orbit using an even larger ship.

[Epthelyn]

Updated your score Seanner

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Reminds me of the Reddit challenge were you take a full orange tank to orbit using one vehicle, then take THAT vehicle to orbit full using another.

There was also a "Scott Manley mode" for that challenge, which involved taking the ship that lifted the first ship that lifted the tank to orbit using an even larger ship.

See previous page

The challenge idea was inspired by the 'Orange tank to orbit, to orbit' challenge which appeared on Reddit(?) a while back. It's just further to go but not necessarily with anything as big as an orange tank.

Change words and you get "Rocket to Duna, to Duna. Then return".

The hardmode is really applicable in this situation because there is no standard measurement; in the reddit challenge it was an orange tank to orbit, and orange tanks don't change; the score here isn't based on a single object.

In other words, Kerbin to Duna, to Duna, to Duna to Kerbin would just be this challenge with a bigger rocket

If you want hardmode, there're things in the achievements to do.

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Sorry for missing this,

Now that's a challenge!

But could you explain these point better:

- 1 "any parts which aid propulsion must be removed prior to leaving the surface of Duna"

- 2 "For the sake of convenience, this can include launch clamps" --- so does launch clamps weight count or not?

- 3 "you may add parts to a craft in order to perform the transfer of the payload from Kerbin to Duna, even if those parts were not on the original rocket you took from Kerbin to Duna" --- what is the "original rocket"? you mean the stage(s) used for the two Kerbin > Duna transfers have to be identical?

4. So you would need a rocket with some 5600+ m/s delta-v for Kerbin > Duna, another 2200+ for Duna > Kerbin, and another 5600+ for Kerbin > Duna again?

Labelled accordingly,

1: Any parts which were used to land the original Kerbin to Duna rocket must be removed before leaving Duna again.

2: Yes, it includes launch clamps. If you want to subtract them you can do, but the stock mass display shows the total mass of the craft and it's easier just to take a note of that. Besides, clamps don't weigh much.

3: Any time "original rocket" is said, it means the rocket you initially took from Kerbin to Duna. Original rocket from Kerbin to Duna, add parts to that rocket to get to Duna again without using that rocket, then launch the original rocket from Duna back to Kerbin.

4: You need a rocket with the dV to get from Kerbin to Duna. Then you need a rocket with the dV to carry that rocket from Kerbin to Duna. It stands to reason that then you'll have plenty of dV to get back to Kerbin from Duna, because Duna is smaller and has a thinner atmosphere.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Epthelyn

[Epthelyn]

Alright, my entry.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

78.2t = 78.2 points

Achievements:

Taking Passengers: +1*20 = +20

Nuclear Non-Proliferation: +50

Total: +70

Grand Total: 78.2 (70)

A bigger mass score is more points, but it's harder to get the achievements. I almost did it without adding the landing legs but landing on SRBs without legs is a really bad idea when you're resting 60+ tons on them and landing at 10m/s.

Just to note:

- The MechJeb case is for mass and dV data. I didn't use it for flight control. I imagine people would be annoyed if the OP's entry was automated, even though I said it was OK

- Kethane is installed, as seen on the map screen in various places, but not used in this challenge. Search the images for a lack of green parts on rockets if you don't believe me.

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Also, one attempt to land was 62.9km from my first landing spot, so there's an additional achievement on the list now

Landing Nearby: Bring your second flight to Duna and land within 10km of the first flight - +200

Edited December 3, 2013 by Epthelyn