[TechTree] [0.23.5] Ackander's Vertical Tech Tree - Release v1.16 - May 13, 2014

[likke_A_boss]

Love the new tech tee, the next update looks great (yay for MOAR science needed!) However, even with all the mods you have, there are a few that I would love to recommend:

1. Habitat Pack: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64442-Habitat-Pack

2. Firespitter (Very popular, but I didn't see in list) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24551-Firespitter-propeller-plane-and-helicopter-parts-v6-1-1-%28December-23rd%29-for-KSP-0-23

3. ZPE Propusion http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50812-New-Folder-Technologies-ZPE-Propulsion-System

4. ALCOR Lander Pod (Best. Command Pod. Ever.)http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54925-WIP-ALCOR-Advanced-Landing-Capsule-for-Orbital-Rendezvous-by-ASET-%280-23-FIX%29

5. Chatterer (DISREGARD, You learn something new everyday)

6. Möbius RocketWorks http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/39049-Mobius-RocketWorks-Engine-Mounts-and-Parts

7. LANDERTRONS! http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61294-WIP-XT-Landertron-Smart-Retrorockets-for-Landers-and-Spaceplanes-v0-06a-12-28

8. RBI Treads http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24967-0-22-0-23-RBI-Tracks-Continuation-General-Propulsionâ„¢-Release-Thread

9. Loinhead Areospace (There's a lot, but personally, I like the Prometheus Sloar Rover) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/12106-0-22-Lionhead-Aerospace-Inc-Need-your-help-for-my-mod%21%21%21

10. Rollkage MKI http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/34014-WIP-Rover-RollKage

11. Rollkage MKII http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/36786-RollKage-Mk2-WIP-Updated-22-12-13

12. Inline Lights http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/52014-Parts-Stack-Inline-Lights-update-29-10-2013

13. Sunshine lights http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50531-Sunshine-movie-style-Deployable-Light-Globe-%28updated-25-10-2013%29

14. 2 Awesome Wheels (They really need publicity) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/33512-0-20-2-better-and-more-realistic-wheels-for-the-Kerbals-who-are-still-alive

THank you for reading and considering! I'm not sure if a average player like myself could help, but if there is anything (I can PM people like it's my job ) Just hollar.

Note: that this list will be added to with edits

Edited January 3, 2014 by likke_A_boss
Learned Chatterer isn't necessary

[Benjpalmer]

...Yeah, still isn't working.

Odd. I managed to download it a short while back. Can't find that file for the life of me though.

[Nelien]

Love the new tech tee, the next update looks great (yay for MOAR science needed!) However, even with all the mods you have, there are a few that I would love to recommend:

1. Habitat Pack: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64442-Habitat-Pack

2. Firespitter (Very popular, but I didn't see in list) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24551-Firespitter-propeller-plane-and-helicopter-parts-v6-1-1-%28December-23rd%29-for-KSP-0-23

3. ZPE Propusion http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50812-New-Folder-Technologies-ZPE-Propulsion-System

4. ALCOR Lander Pod (Best. Command Pod. Ever.)http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54925-WIP-ALCOR-Advanced-Landing-Capsule-for-Orbital-Rendezvous-by-ASET-%280-23-FIX%29

5. Chatterer (There are a few parts included, and a lot of people use it) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/25367-0-22-Chatterer-v-0-5

6. Möbius RocketWorks http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/39049-Mobius-RocketWorks-Engine-Mounts-and-Parts

7. LANDERTRONS! http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61294-WIP-XT-Landertron-Smart-Retrorockets-for-Landers-and-Spaceplanes-v0-06a-12-28

8. RBI Treads http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24967-0-22-0-23-RBI-Tracks-Continuation-General-Propulsionâ„¢-Release-Thread

9. Loinhead Areospace (There's a lot, but personally, I like the Prometheus Sloar Rover) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/12106-0-22-Lionhead-Aerospace-Inc-Need-your-help-for-my-mod%21%21%21

10. Rollkage MKI http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/34014-WIP-Rover-RollKage

11. Rollkage MKII http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/36786-RollKage-Mk2-WIP-Updated-22-12-13

12. Inline Lights http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/52014-Parts-Stack-Inline-Lights-update-29-10-2013

13. Sunshine lights http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50531-Sunshine-movie-style-Deployable-Light-Globe-%28updated-25-10-2013%29

14. 2 Awesome Wheels (They really need publicity) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/33512-0-20-2-better-and-more-realistic-wheels-for-the-Kerbals-who-are-still-alive

Hey likke_A_boss, regarding Chatterer, the parts included are only there to keep compatibility with older ships that people have built when Chatterer required those parts. They are completely useless (apart from looking pretty) and Chatterer works just fine without them. So I don't think they should be added to the tech tree.

[likke_A_boss]

Hey likke_A_boss, regarding Chatterer, the parts included are only there to keep compatibility with older ships that people have built when Chatterer required those parts. They are completely useless (apart from looking pretty) and Chatterer works just fine without them. So I don't think they should be added to the tech tree.

Ok, Thanks! You learn something new everyday!

[fronbow]

If anyone has a quick way of making a list of parts and their cost from their part.cfg files.. I could use it.

This is in my todo list while learning the intricacies of C# - got the logic sorted out ages ago, it's the different types of lists/arrays that are confusing me now!

Have you got some kind of version control for the tree?

[Ackander]

Right, fair enough! I certainly don't mind a bit of tweaking when I download mods, I tend to do it anyway whether the mod creators intended it or not .

Just to give you a quick update on how I'm fairing with your mod so far. I've started using it with the Mission Control Extended plugin and it's synergising extremely well. I had to create a couple of simple missions myself to help out at the start, since most missions require at least a simple rocket to be built. But once I had unlocked parachutes I could quickly get on with the regular MCE missions. In order to gather science quickly enough without running out of money however, I had to have more than one mission pack installed, since early missions often require science equipment and other parts that you simply don't have early enough with your tech tree. But since there are plenty of mission packs available, that wasn't a problem at all and I'm seriously having a blast. It truly feels like KSP career mode as it should be.

Good luck with the next update! Can't wait..

Great to hear!

Sorry for the delay in the update. I have been having issues with TreeEdit.. I think the cache had a tree.cfg version different from the one I copied in. I did copy it in after loading the save file and going to R&D lab, so some weird thing happened. I went to debug and reloaded all files.. which loaded a seperate instance of TreeEdit. Had to go through again and place every part, including stock. Painful to say the least. Also, we only have one computer and I have basically been hogging it to myself for the past couple months.. so I had to share or else.. Anyway, I am literally out the door to a docters appointment, so I will get back to work when I get back home.

[Ackander]

Love the new tech tee, the next update looks great (yay for MOAR science needed!) However, even with all the mods you have, there are a few that I would love to recommend:

1. Habitat Pack: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64442-Habitat-Pack

2. Firespitter (Very popular, but I didn't see in list) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24551-Firespitter-propeller-plane-and-helicopter-parts-v6-1-1-%28December-23rd%29-for-KSP-0-23

3. ZPE Propusion http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50812-New-Folder-Technologies-ZPE-Propulsion-System

4. ALCOR Lander Pod (Best. Command Pod. Ever.)http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54925-WIP-ALCOR-Advanced-Landing-Capsule-for-Orbital-Rendezvous-by-ASET-%280-23-FIX%29

5. Chatterer (DISREGARD, You learn something new everyday)

6. Möbius RocketWorks http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/39049-Mobius-RocketWorks-Engine-Mounts-and-Parts

7. LANDERTRONS! http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61294-WIP-XT-Landertron-Smart-Retrorockets-for-Landers-and-Spaceplanes-v0-06a-12-28

8. RBI Treads http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24967-0-22-0-23-RBI-Tracks-Continuation-General-Propulsionâ„¢-Release-Thread

9. Loinhead Areospace (There's a lot, but personally, I like the Prometheus Sloar Rover) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/12106-0-22-Lionhead-Aerospace-Inc-Need-your-help-for-my-mod%21%21%21

10. Rollkage MKI http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/34014-WIP-Rover-RollKage

11. Rollkage MKII http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/36786-RollKage-Mk2-WIP-Updated-22-12-13

12. Inline Lights http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/52014-Parts-Stack-Inline-Lights-update-29-10-2013

13. Sunshine lights http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50531-Sunshine-movie-style-Deployable-Light-Globe-%28updated-25-10-2013%29

14. 2 Awesome Wheels (They really need publicity) http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/33512-0-20-2-better-and-more-realistic-wheels-for-the-Kerbals-who-are-still-alive

THank you for reading and considering! I'm not sure if a average player like myself could help, but if there is anything (I can PM people like it's my job ) Just hollar.

Note: that this list will be added to with edits

Thanks! These mods are great. I am almost done with the current update, so I will have to add them to the next.

[likke_A_boss]

Thanks! These mods are great. I am almost done with the current update, so I will have to add them to the next.

Great! Glad to know that I made the list! I just have to ask though, is thee anyway I can Integrate parts myself? Like an edit to a .cfg or something? There are a few that I want to integrate temporary. Thanks!

[Ackander]

This is in my todo list while learning the intricacies of C# - got the logic sorted out ages ago, it's the different types of lists/arrays that are confusing me now!

Have you got some kind of version control for the tree?

As far as actual revision control, no per se.. I incriment the number based on the types of changes I make.

What about a batch file command? Could it recognize what is and is not a part cfg? I have a batch exe that will combine the contents of all the files in a folder, but it is indescriminant. Hm, but I am not sure how I would turn even that into a database yet. I will have to think about what I want with respect to part cost, because not all parts have an associated entry cost I have noticed. It may be that I will have to have a list of special parts that will modify the science cost factor, and everything else is just a part. It would still be better than the price per part per node fluctuating so much because of mod choice.

[Ackander]

Great! Glad to know that I made the list! I just have to ask though, is thee anyway I can Integrate parts myself? Like an edit to a .cfg or something? There are a few that I want to integrate temporary. Thanks!

Yes, absolutely. Easiest way I can think of without using TreeEdit is using this excel file. There is a tab for adding parts and a tab for editing node parameters. If all you want to do is add parts, you add the name of the parts to the node you want, and the output updates accordingly. Just remember to replace all under_scores with per.iods. It is in file, just thought I would mention it here too.

Just need to copy the output to notepad++ and replace all CRLF with \r\n\t , and move that text to the tree.cfg.

Let me know how it works out for you.

I am not sure how I will maintain this. I will probably only keep it updated for the most recent version. Not sure why anyone would want a lagacy version though.. I may, however, be wrong about that. Feedback anyone?

[fronbow]

As far as actual revision control, no per se.. I incriment the number based on the types of changes I make.

Ahh, I was just thinking that if it was on github or somesuch then it would make it easier for people to make changes and to be able to track the changes!

It would also be more feasible for people to make their own fork so that they can tailor a version just for them?! Or even to have different versions for different situations - like separate copies for the poll questions, or the current version (54 mods used) and the new version with 81 mods used!

If it's not something you're interested in, would you mind if I put a copy on my github a/c for this purpose?

Cheers

[Ackander]

Ahh, I was just thinking that if it was on github or somesuch then it would make it easier for people to make changes and to be able to track the changes!

It would also be more feasible for people to make their own fork so that they can tailor a version just for them?! Or even to have different versions for different situations - like separate copies for the poll questions, or the current version (54 mods used) and the new version with 81 mods used!

If it's not something you're interested in, would you mind if I put a copy on my github a/c for this purpose?

Cheers

Ah, yeah, that would be handy. I was just keeping those versions on my dropbox.. but everyone cannot get to it that way. Sure, I can put it on git hub. I will update the first post with a link when I get that done, then I will let you and everyone else know. To be honest, I have not used github before, so I do not realize the full capabilities of it yet.

[fronbow]

Ah, yeah, that would be handy. I was just keeping those versions on my dropbox.. but everyone cannot get to it that way. Sure, I can put it on git hub. I will update the first post with a link when I get that done, then I will let you and everyone else know. To be honest, I have not used github before, so I do not realize the full capabilities of it yet.

You'll love it once you get to know it, I'm sure! A lot of my friends use it to keep track of changes to documents, and it seems ideal to me to utilise it for things like this

[likke_A_boss]

I am having tobles downloading, do you know anything I can do? I get a 'decompression failed" message. Anywhere else you can upload, or anything else?

[Ackander]

I have updated the installation instruction to reflect that fact that module manager config files need to go into the GameData folder to actually be loaded..

I am having tobles downloading, do you know anything I can do? I get a 'decompression failed" message. Anywhere else you can upload, or anything else?

I can look into this, but every time I download it it works. I can probably zip it uncompressed, hopefully that will work.

[Ackander]

I have the Vertical TechTree on github now. Thought I would announce that. If all goes well, update later tonight. Just have to combine the two tree.cfg files, and that should be that. Some of the mods I thought would be in it will not be in it, because the parts did not load (I think because part configs did not include PART{}) and I just now realized it trying to update the mods themselves. So.. soon.

[Nelien]

I have the Vertical TechTree on github now. Thought I would announce that. If all goes well, update later tonight. Just have to combine the two tree.cfg files, and that should be that. Some of the mods I thought would be in it will not be in it, because the parts did not load (I think because part configs did not include PART{}) and I just now realized it trying to update the mods themselves. So.. soon.

Nice! If you've not used version control before you're in for a treat (after getting used to it... takes a few.. years ). You might consider having an experimental branch, could allow people to help you out in finding the bugs/inconsistencies while you're developing a new version.

[Ackander]

Nice! If you've not used version control before you're in for a treat (after getting used to it... takes a few.. years ). You might consider having an experimental branch, could allow people to help you out in finding the bugs/inconsistencies while you're developing a new version.

Aye, indeed. It is proving useful already. So I guess I need to create an experimental branch for everyone to mess with? I will do that soon.

[fronbow]

You don't have to create an experimental branch, people can fork your branch to make changes/updates to the current branch and then you can pull their changes back into the main branch.

I would consider creating branches for major changes like the move from 54 mods to 81ish, then if someone only wants to use the 54 then they can just grab that version instead of the other version!

Oh, and yay, you were quick

[likke_A_boss]

You don't have to create an experimental branch, people can fork your branch to make changes/updates to the current branch and then you can pull their changes back into the main branch.

I would consider creating branches for major changes like the move from 54 mods to 81ish, then if someone only wants to use the 54 then they can just grab that version instead of the other version!

Oh, and yay, you were quick

A good idea. And also, is there a list of every idea in every node? If not, Do you know what mods are required to fill every node? If not, then, what is in the "Logic" node?

[Nelien]

A good idea. And also, is there a list of every idea in every node? If not, Do you know what mods are required to fill every node? If not, then, what is in the "Logic" node?

The logic node only has 2 parts, both stock. The command seat (the EVA chair) and the rover body chassis. I guess that node is more an unlock for future tech rather than being particularly useful on its own .

As for what mods are required to fill every node, well, for the current version it's quite a few of them, not all listed, but not far off. You're mainly looking at mods that fill gaps that stock don't originally handle, like Kethane, KAS, Life Support (pick one), Infernal Robotics, Deadly Reentry, Hybrid Electric Engines, Near Future propulsion, etc.. etc..

But frankly, Ackander mentioned he was working on having the tree be more customisable, I assume through some tinkering with spreadsheets, meaning we could customise the tree based on what mods we had installed. So you could just wait and it'll be a lot easier to play with just the mods you want .

[Ackander]

Quick Opinion Poll: How should I scale total science costs of the Tech Tree when the presence of parts that suggest mods are installed increasing total researchable science? 1:1? Or does it depend on the mod? Here are the mods I am seeing that give more science potential (are there more?):

L-Tek

Station Science

Interstellar

ScanSat

Tarsier

Historic Soviet Pack

How should I scale the science costs of nodes in the absence of parts? Should each part be counted equal, or should some parts be more valuable than others? There are over 2300 parts.. it might take me a while to price each one, unless I can somehow extract the cost from the part.cfgs.

Some mods have their own nodes now, so those will be easy enough, it is the mixed nodes I have concerns over.

What Disciplines are more valuable when it comes to gathering science? Parts?

I have the tree.cfg done finally. I wanted to have the excel modfier ready though before I released the update. Most of my time now is making these excel tools. One to combine two tree.cfgs, which will make it easier to do updates now. And the other to modify node costs, dependant on mods installed.

What else should I consider when pricing nodes that I might not have thought about.

[Nelien]

Quick Opinion Poll: How should I scale total science costs of the Tech Tree when the presence of parts that suggest mods are installed increasing total researchable science? 1:1? Or does it depend on the mod?

The ones I've been using, ScanSAT and Interstellar, don't give you that much more science, and Interstellar is more focused on it's own progression with gathering stuff and upgrading items, so in my opinion and to keep it simple it shouldn't scale at all. If anything the scaling would have to be done only to nodes that come AFTER the ones that unlock the parts that give the extra science, and that seems like a lot of work.

How should I scale the science costs of nodes in the absence of parts? Should each part be counted equal, or should some parts be more valuable than others? There are over 2300 parts.. it might take me a while to price each one, unless I can somehow extract the cost from the part.cfgs.

All parts equal. Different people put different value to different parts, and the cost in part.cfg is by no means a good indicator (a lot of mods simply have the part cost be 0).

What Disciplines are more valuable when it comes to gathering science? Parts?

I would say Science is by far the most important since it contains all the stock sensors. Then I guess probe cores (unmanned discipline) have their value. Communications as well for transmitting science. And possibly Exploration for SCANSat science if you use that.

What else should I consider when pricing nodes that I might not have thought about.

What about how many new nodes a node unlock? I imagine you have thought about it to some extent, but just in case, some nodes are far more valuable than others simply because they unlock a lot more stuff (composite materials is one that comes to mind).

[Ackander]

The ones I've been using, ScanSAT and Interstellar, don't give you that much more science, and Interstellar is more focused on it's own progression with gathering stuff and upgrading items, so in my opinion and to keep it simple it shouldn't scale at all. If anything the scaling would have to be done only to nodes that come AFTER the ones that unlock the parts that give the extra science, and that seems like a lot of work.

....

If I understand things correctly (I assume all experiments can be done on all celestial bodies) and my math is right (last time I checked, nobody did anything like add up potential science gains), KSPI adds 9,308.2 science, and ScanSAT adds 25,386 science with experiments. Stock science potential, sans vessel recovery, is 72,579.2. With both mods, that is a 47.8% increase in science potential.

Making the same assumptions, L-Tek adds 92,538.7 science (+127.5%), Tarsiers adds 12,495 science (+14.2%), and BobCat’s Soviet pack adds only 3,888 (+5.4%). I can, with a little work, figure out how many nodes are down stream of the parts that give science, and scale only those. Otherwise, there is a bit of an imbalance, I believe.

Just something to think about.

All parts equal. Different people put different value to different parts, and the cost in part.cfg is by no means a good indicator (a lot of mods simply have the part cost be 0).

Exactly.

I would say Science is by far the most important since it contains all the stock sensors. Then I guess probe cores (unmanned discipline) have their value. Communications as well for transmitting science. And possibly Exploration for SCANSat science if you use that.

What about how many new nodes a node unlock? I imagine you have thought about it to some extent, but just in case, some nodes are far more valuable than others simply because they unlock a lot more stuff (composite materials is one that comes to mind).

Here are the priorities I already have assigned from before v1.12.18.b:

Survivability 1

Unmanned 2

Aeroframes 3

Miniaturization 4

Electrics 5

Communications 6

Science 7

Voltaics 8

Rocketry 9

Controls 10

Aerospace 11

Spaceframes 12

Exploration 13

Nuclear 14

Mobility 15

Robotics 16

Electric Prop 17

Resources 18

Theoretics 19

Start 1

One being the highest priority of "need to get to", is generally cheaper in science cost. However, this does go contrary to a "supply and demand" model, where you should generally have to pay more for what you want the most. Nevertheless, I used that factor without consulting everyone to see what you thought about it. Now I want to make a better algorithm to determine nodal costs.

[Nelien]

If I understand things correctly (I assume all experiments can be done on all celestial bodies) and my math is right (last time I checked, nobody did anything like add up potential science gains), KSPI adds 9,308.2 science, and ScanSAT adds 25,386 science with experiments. Stock science potential, sans vessel recovery, is 72,579.2. With both mods, that is a 47.8% increase in science potential.

Oh wow, that's a lot more science than I thought it was... I admit I haven't been playing around with the science stuff of mods outside the Kerbin SOI so I didn't think it would be that much. Then maybe I would say that there should be a scaling factor of costs involved... Since you already have the increase in total science for each mod maybe you could start with that, although I wouldn't use the full amount since I think people might not make the full use of science from mods simply due to ignorance. So maybe 75% of the increase? So if you have SCANSat it would cost ~36% more in total.

In the end, if people don't like the scale factor they could remove it right?