.23 - Just not getting the progression-path for science labs.

[Deadweasel]

It'd be even more helpful and worthwhile to use if having one within a certain distance of a landing craft meant you could transmit to it for 100%, and if it could generate even more unique science based on what it had received from your craft so far. This would provide a purpose to having a space station, and make the effort of bringing it all the way out to another planet/moon complete with crew a more rewarding endeavor.

You bring up a good point with the order in which things are unlocked, too. Why the heck are basic rocket components unlocked first, but airplane parts are harder to get to, when the science system encourages thorough exploration of an area? For example, the first thing you have access to are rocket parts, and yet you can get quite a decent reward just from collecting surface samples around the KSC itself. Even the runway has its own "biome" from which to sample, so it feels like the system is geared to encourage lots of exploration of an area, almost like a built-in tutorial of sorts.

So given that, why does the parts system feel like it focuses on getting you up to space first, instead of encouraging the player to hang out on Kerbin to build up experience/science points?

If I were a new player, and the system were focused on aircraft ground vehicles first, getting into orbit the first time would be that much more awe inspiring after I'd put in all the effort to research rocket parts.

Also, why do we have access to rocket parts, but a simple thing like a thermometer is worth a crazy amount of points to unlock? The way the system is geared, we have to work hard to get those almighty science points around an area, only to have to come back and do it all over again later when other equipment becomes available. That seems really backward to me.

[boomerdog2000]

If I were a new player, and the system were focused on aircraft ground vehicles first, getting into orbit the first time would be that much more awe inspiring after I'd put in all the effort to research rocket parts.

Also, why do we have access to rocket parts, but a simple thing like a thermometer is worth a crazy amount of points to unlock? The way the system is geared, we have to work hard to get those almighty science points around an area, only to have to come back and do it all over again later when other equipment becomes available. That seems really backward to me.

I agree with the earlier part about achieving orbit being much cooler after using planes, but at the same time, planes take way too long to use. You're basically requiring the player to fly around to a few different Kerbin biomes in a very slow (comparatively) plane. Since this is a space exploration game it makes sense to me to allow the player to jump right into the exploring space part.

Also the game designers should not be afraid to sacrifice realism for the sake of gameplay. If we follow the thermometer trend. The kerbals would have unlocked a fair amount of the tech-tree before even considering launching a rocket. The tech-tree progression may not be very realistic but if it supports the game, what does it matter?

[Deadweasel]

I agree with the earlier part about achieving orbit being much cooler after using planes, but at the same time, planes take way too long to use. You're basically requiring the player to fly around to a few different Kerbin biomes in a very slow (comparatively) plane. Since this is a space exploration game it makes sense to me to allow the player to jump right into the exploring space part.

Also the game designers should not be afraid to sacrifice realism for the sake of gameplay. If we follow the thermometer trend. The kerbals would have unlocked a fair amount of the tech-tree before even considering launching a rocket. The tech-tree progression may not be very realistic but if it supports the game, what does it matter?

Well, I do mostly agree with what you're saying, but the redundancy of some aspects makes things feel a little out of whack. It's not so much about the realism, so much as the fact that I will have been to the Mün (and hopefully back again) before I unlock any further useful experimentation equipment, which I then need to take around and "explore" previously-visited areas all over again in order to earn more points.

It's not the forced baby steps that the tech tree enforces, but the redundancy that the order of unlocked tiers creates that creates a feeling of simply grinding for points.

Obviously I'm not alone in thinking things feel a little haphazard and arbitrary, or there wouldn't be multiple mods that re-organize the tree in existence.

I'm not saying the whole thing is outright bad; I know it was a complicated feature to add in the first place, so of course it's likely going to get some refinement, and I'm still getting a kick out of playing through it anyway. Just tossing my two cents into the ring.

[killavirus]

ohh how about boosting output depending on stupidity of kerbals loaded inside !

[nholzric]

My main issue with the science lab is twofold:

1. It is a 2m part. This part gets unlocked atthe same tier that the poodle and smallest fuel tanks get ublocked. This means that it isn't practical to use early on when parts are limited.

...

Yes! I think the lab feels out of place in the tech tree too. I think it should belong higher in the tree where interplanetary trips start to become more feasible, where you're likely to have docking ports, and AT LEAST where there are other 2m parts.

ohh how about boosting output depending on stupidity of kerbals loaded inside !

I'm excited for when a Kerbal's attributes become part of game-play. I'll be disappointed if it turns out to just be "flavor" attributes.

...

Obviously I'm not alone in thinking things feel a little haphazard and arbitrary, or there wouldn't be multiple mods that re-organize the tree in existence.

...

I think it's really neat how just rearranging the tech tree can change the whole flavor of the game. The consensus seems to be that right now the tech tree is built in a "Tutorial" mode. There are mods that aim for realism. I'll bet there are several other very distinct and recognizable flavors. It's usually a weakness to rely on the "make it an option" method of design, but maybe Squad will implement at least one more version of the Tech Tree in career mode so new players can have a tutorial and seasoned players can enjoy a slightly less patronizing version that is still "KSP Canon".

[gre8]

Also the game designers should not be afraid to sacrifice realism for the sake of gameplay. If we follow the thermometer trend. The kerbals would have unlocked a fair amount of the tech-tree before even considering launching a rocket. The tech-tree progression may not be very realistic but if it supports the game, what does it matter?

Indeed, but a thermometer is fairly simple instrument that could come way sooner than the Materials lab part for instance. I think they could shuffle the scientific parts around a bit in that regard.

About the Science Station: Yes, I am a bit dissapointed with it too. It seems not worth the effort since it is easier to bring science back and launching new missions everytime you want to gather science from other biomes. If it did boost the science cap on given experiment before bringing it home, really eased the penalty for transmission or slowly generated science over a long time, it would really make it a whole lot cooler part to use. I do think that SQUAD will develop it more in the next update, but the way it is - for me - is just another part to make stations look cool.

[Daffit]

I am happy that others have the same problem with science lab. I just thought I may not understand how it is works. It need more pollishing, until than it is just to decorate the stations.

[Deadweasel]

Indeed, but a thermometer is fairly simple instrument that could come way sooner than the Materials lab part for instance. I think they could shuffle the scientific parts around a bit in that regard.

Exactly my thinking. I mean, what's the point of opening up such basic scientific equipment later in the game, other than to artificially delay the gathering of science points? It's not a complaint against the realism aspect, so much as arbitrarily dragging it out when all that would really need to be done is offer all the basic equipment first, and reduce the point gains a bit to compensate.

In fact, there's an idea: how about setting up the points system so that more complex equipment like the goo canister and materials bay (which should honestly come later instead, imo) are the parts that yield better science points, while the basic equipment like thermometers and barometers offer less because they're just simple single readings?

[Alchemist]

Also thought about a thing that could give the lab a good purpose: experiment contracts (as part of contract system that is planned for future versions).

Upon accepting the contract you receive an "experiment pack" (and can get more for a small cost in case of loss of this one), that is the same kind of payload as these experiments moved around and can be placed in any pod or compatible module before launch.

This pack is just like these experiments with one difference - if not "activated" it can't be transmitted and has zero recovery value. To activate the pack (perform the experiment) you have to meet specific requirements (craft position, required modules) and press the button than becomes available (like that research button that the lab gives). Then you have to return the experiment (some might allow transmitting) and you'll get both reward for contract (not too big, but quite good for something you can do along a usual supply flight) and probably some science data. And most of these experiments would require the lab.

And this actually is a large part of what's being done on the real world space stations!

[Miro Beero]

Some science should only be allowed to be done by 1 or 2 kerbins. Some science should require the science module to get science from.

You should get 100% from all science to transmit back. Its just a matter of how you get that science.

That's how I think it should work. The rinse and repeat of running science is tiresome. Its getting the kerbal and rocket and modules there and back that's the fun part.

[gre8]

That's how I think it should work. The rinse and repeat of running science is tiresome. Its getting the kerbal and rocket and modules there and back that's the fun part.

The career aspect of the game is pretty much like it used to be on sandbox. Once you land on a planet you have nothing to do really; you click the EVA report and collect sample button and thats it, you are ready to go home. It would be really cool to give us a reason to permanently settle other planets in order to extract long term science...

[tetryds]

I just don't understand why experiments CANNOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE take time, but transmitting, burning, docking, getting energy, manouvering... does.

What is so wrong about that? I mean, if transmitting takes time, why can't any other scientific experiment do the same?

I'm talking about 10 or 20s, and be abble to run all your experiments at once, by the way.

[TimMartland]

I think labs are more useful on the ground, as on Laythe it would be easier to fly to all the biomes, get science and fly back to your main base than it would be to fly loads of rockets there and back. I don't really think we will see the true power and usefulness of the lab until all planets have biomes and money becomes a factor.

[GROOV3ST3R]

I like the idea of doing a grand tour with the lab - flying past planets and moons. each time performing experiments, sending data and resetting them. It's much easier to carry one lab than a sufficient amount of all experiments to yield science from any environment.

[Highlad]

If you guys are interested, I edited some .cfg files to make the science lab a little more helpful.

I upped the weight to 7 tonnes.

I upped the electrical requirements MASSIVELY

I upped the crew requirements to 4

I put it a little higher in the techtree

and I changed the recovery value to something good. I think it will now recover to 100% but I am not certain. I shall play around with it a bit.

Here it is for your inspection:

http://www./download/kd9baukun3kscmh/AdvancedLargeCrewedLab.zip

Just pop it into your Gamedata>Squad>Parts>Science folder.

[warja]

I suggest that the Science lab could store the data produced in the SC-9001 Science Jr or the Mystery Goo like the GRAVMAX Negative Gravioli Detector or the Thermometer in a capsule.

The objective of that is to bring the science lab in a manned mission arround a planet, taking the science of a biome with a lander, and after that, going back to the main ship and storing the data in to the science lab.

[WhiteWeasel]

I'd say increase the refinement so transmit value is higher and perhaps give a small bonus of each new experiment reset. Like + 2 for each experiment in kerbins' SOI and goes up at harder destinations like + 10 for each experiment cleaned at jool and so on.

[InternetBatman]

Try this for fun times:

"Change this entry:

dataTransmissionBoost = 1.5

to

dataTransmissionBoost = 10.0

This will allow it to process science at the full point value that it would on a return to KSP!"

As for the science pod being unlocked too early, I unlocked it at the same time as the heavy rocketry. (I rushed the rocketry parts). But I can still launch a lab without the big rockomax engines....

Put a 3 man pod/reusable lander on top of the Lab. Only have 1 kerbal in the pod and 2 in the lab. (3 kerbals max)

1)Use the lab to transmit at 100% effectiveness during the mission

2)Land the lab with the lander on top on your target planet or moon.

2)Detach your lander and scout all biomes returning to the landed lab to transmit at 100% rate.

3)Return your pod home with all 3 kerbals and less junk.

4)Leave the Lab there for future missions. (No more need to relaunch a lab for that planet)

You now have a reason to land a lab on multiple planets or moons to form a mini base/transmission center.

Later on you can have a space station around certain planets to open up more strategies to collecting a lot of data transmitting it dumping the junk and returning home with the bare essentials maybe even just the pod... This feels more realistic for me and just makes it more fun deciding where my lab bases will go. Also returning with a full lander + millions of science parts should burn up on re-entry... Unless they are designed for re-entry or shielded from it.

This opens up soo many possibilities that I will be trying out..

You're welcome.

[IPster]

I completely agree that transmission is inferior to returning home with tons of science. Maybe transmission values are too low, however, I think the new store-everything-in-the-pod system may also be op. I like being able to store stuff in my pod, but a limit would be nice, so I couldn't do all the biomes on Minimus in a single seat pod. (you know kerbals don't sample pebbles, it's they return a sack of rocks that makes Santa jealous) If this was the case, you would seriously consider the 40% transmission rate on an interplanetary mission, and you would most certainly bring a lab if Squad was to add storage to it or something.

[Deadweasel]

I completely agree that transmission is inferior to returning home with tons of science. Maybe transmission values are too low, however, I think the new store-everything-in-the-pod system may also be op. I like being able to store stuff in my pod, but a limit would be nice, so I couldn't do all the biomes on Minimus in a single seat pod. (you know kerbals don't sample pebbles, it's they return a sack of rocks that makes Santa jealous) If this was the case, you would seriously consider the 40% transmission rate on an interplanetary mission, and you would most certainly bring a lab if Squad was to add storage to it or something.

Eh, given that most of the "experiments" are little more than readings anyway, I don't think it's such a big deal to be able to store lots of them at once.

BUT, it might be interesting to have surface samples actually ADD WEIGHT to the capsule as they're stored. You'd have to plan a lot more for your return, trying to build in more delta-v to accommodate the surface samples too

[Javster]

I just use it on my space station because it looks cool.