BioMass Ongoing Development

[koksny]

I must say that was exceptionally great support, after following these guidelines everything seems at first glance to be compatible and running fine. My Kerbals got food on EVA, and the transfer is actually working. That's greatly appreciated, thank you.

And i guess the food disapearing at transfer wasn't actually bound to Microbiome part, but it seems that there is generally some incomaptibility between BM+S and TAC with STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH, this problem occured also on vessels with only stock Squad parts and TAC LS container. So unless stock parts like Science Jr require food, it seem (at least on my mod setup) that with default BM+S settings TAC food just gets removed instead of transfered without any additional conditions required.

Still, i have issue with godawful slow transfer speed of food between parts, but looking at these config files i guess there is not much more to tweak so it could be changed. Oh well, it's a game of patience after all, not big deal.

My little bigger issue would be the lightning effects on both AGStudy-2 and GooExp2. Is there ANY way to disable or remove it? Can i somehow import .mu models to 3DS and remove some light source helpers, or is some other software required to modify it? The blue glow of Biological Systems Study looks most of the time absolutly out of the place, and the white glow of Bio Containment Study while nice - glows out of the doors when they are closed, making this part a really iritating "candy bulb". Models in BM+S have really a lot of details to them, but the overall aesthetic of textures and lights brings them seriously down. And while textures are not problem for me and i just keep them replaced, i have no idea how to get rid of these special effects around them.

Also, to my surprise, after adding

dataIsCollectable = True

collectActionName = Collect Data

interactionRange = 1.2

to science part config files, it works flawlesly with stock processing lab. Well done, and if i could just suggest implementing it in actual mod - as i wrote in TAC thread, having to bring back whole containment module just because i want few fern leafs seem pretty absurd Edited January 24, 2014 by koksny

[seanth]

Github updated:

--BioReactor rates tweaked. Only "normal" difficulty

--Densities of some resources and flow modes changed to play nicely with TAC Life Support (thx to koksny for catching this problem)

--Biological science experiments allow for data collection (thx to koksny for suggesting this fix)

--New Aquatic greenhouse skin (model and lighting still being worked on)

--New Small greenhouse introduced. Only "normal" difficulty

Opinion poll: should parts involved in generating biofuels have difficulty levels, or limit the difficulty levels to just the greenhouses? Right now, the BioReactor will produce 21L of liquid fuel ever kerbin day. Too slow for easy, but just right for hard mode?

[balricaso]

I've run into a snag. I've followed all the guidelines for syncing biomass with TAC and I have to say I really enjoy like how it works together. That said, I just sent an interplanetary ship out, with a couple of days worth of oxygen, as I figure the bio systems in place will suffice so that I don't need years upon years of oxygen tanks. And it works, as expected, until I timewarp above 10x. At which point it seems the oxygen production all but stops and 02 levels drop until TAC ends the timewarp automatically. I can't feasibly nurse a long mission by dropping out of timewarp every 2 minutes to allow a couple hours for my 02 to replenish.

[seanth]

I've run into a snag. I've followed all the guidelines for syncing biomass with TAC and I have to say I really enjoy like how it works together. That said, I just sent an interplanetary ship out, with a couple of days worth of oxygen, as I figure the bio systems in place will suffice so that I don't need years upon years of oxygen tanks. And it works, as expected, until I timewarp above 10x. At which point it seems the oxygen production all but stops and 02 levels drop until TAC ends the timewarp automatically. I can't feasibly nurse a long mission by dropping out of timewarp every 2 minutes to allow a couple hours for my 02 to replenish.

Hmmm. We're aware of things not working well above 50x timewarp. Above 10x timewarp is a new one. Keep in mind that, as you move away from the sun, the greenhouses will be less efficient when using just light from the sun. If you were not using the onboard lights in the greenhouses, maybe they got too far from the sun and were not producing enough oxygen? It could also just be a limitation of the generator modules Biomass currently uses.

I hesitate to suggest this, but there is a way you could cheat: The dll that comes with TAC-LS allows it to do basic calculations to give the appearance that Kerbals continue to respire, drink water, etc. when the craft is not selected. As of right now Biomass does not do this. What you _could_ do is have a few Biomass greenhouses running. Deselect your ship, increase the time warp, swap back when TAC-LS gives you a warning, and reselect the ship. At normal time, replenish your O2 tanks from the greenhouses. Deselect, timewarp, repeat.

You could also use an oxygen compressor to release oxidizer fuel pressure to make oxygen. You would sacrifice oxidizer for breathable oxygen, but it's an option.

The longterm solution to this timewarp problem is to either write a custom dll for biomass that would replicate some of the features TAC-LS has, or see whether Biomass can just use TAC-LS's dlls. <shrug>

I'd love to see some images of your ship, if you're willing to share.

[balricaso]

I almost always leave the lights on in the greenhouse, because as I move i often forget to turn to face the fun (thank goodness for tracking on solar panels).

http://imgur.com/a/JaOtF#0 Here's the ship on a routine trip to Duna (with excess materials as I believe one should be prepared for catastrophe)

@ or below 10x the oxygen slowly creeps up 0.01 at a time, but I noticed the problem shortly after I escaped Kerbin's SOI. May just load the quick-save before I made the ejection burn, and shuttle a few oxidizer tanks and a compressor up so I can warp to the encounter before the warnings stop me.

[koksny]

So first of all, that was impressivly fast update, thanks for including this few little (basicaly qol) changes.

So far everything runs great, but just as i completed one mission and had some science to spare, i noticed there is no option of unlocking new greenhouse in R&D. I see there is

TechRequired = specializedElectrics

in part config, but it does not appear in any node in R&D tree. It does, however, appear as grayed-out part in VAB/SPH. Any possible fix? I must notice that i have Techtree mode (or something like that, from Interstellar mod) installed, but i guess it should not conflict with it?

[seanth]

So first of all, that was impressivly fast update, thanks for including this few little (basicaly qol) changes.

So far everything runs great, but just as i completed one mission and had some science to spare, i noticed there is no option of unlocking new greenhouse in R&D. I see there is in part config, but it does not appear in any node in R&D tree. It does, however, appear as grayed-out part in VAB/SPH. Any possible fix? I must notice that i have Techtree mode (or something like that, from Interstellar mod) installed, but i guess it should not conflict with it?

I believe the problem was on our end. I just pushed an update to github that should place the larger greenhouses into the Advanced Electrics node, and the new 1/4 size greenhouse into the Electrics node.

[HGGundamReviews]

I was wondering will these pods produce materials, O2, fuel, whatever while it's not focused? TAC LS mod will drain resources while not selected and I was kinda hoping this might produce while not selected.

[seanth]

I was wondering will these pods produce materials, O2, fuel, whatever while it's not focused? TAC LS mod will drain resources while not selected and I was kinda hoping this might produce while not selected.

Currently Biomass does not produce materials when not focused. This is a major oversight that needs to change. Roboto and I have been actively discussing the best way to do this: wait for TAC-LS to come out with a greenhouse part and then use their dlls? Recruit someone to write our own custom dll? Suggestions welcome

[Nachocuban]

For the time being, I wrote a MM.cfg that puts one of TAC's generators in the greenhouse, that consumes nutrients and waste, and produces food, at the same rate as the greenhouse does. I just turn it on when i switch vessels, and turn it off when focused on the ship.

Using the Spaceport Version

Edited January 28, 2014 by Nachocuban

[Nachocuban]

What is the intended method for using the Github Version?

Lets say I don't want to make any fuel. Just produce some food, possibly O2 and H20 if thats a side-effect. What modules do I need installed, and how many Kerbils will it feed?

Also, every time I use the small greenhouse, when I launch the vessel, its converted to a Large Greenhouse, clipping inside the adjacent parts. Reverting the flight to the SPH, has it as a large greenhouse in the editor now as well.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Nachocuban

[seanth]

Lets say I don't want to make any fuel. Just produce some food, possibly O2 and H20 if thats a side-effect. What modules do I need installed, and how many Kerbils will it feed?

Your question should have a straight forward answer, but the truth is the testing has not reached that far. Thus far we have looked the the large plant greenhouse, the bioreactor and tonight I'm updating the microbiome.

Given things are not locked down, I can tell you the plan and you can off feedback. With your feedback, I can expedite getting the food part working:

Food will be a combination of Biocake and seeds, combined in the "Koylent" maker to make food. So to make food, you'd need these parts in these states:

---A plant greenhouse filled with biomass. The plants only start making seeds when they run out of room to grow.

---Activate the biomass harvester in the greenhouse. This will make biocake.

---Have the "Koylent" maker hooked up. This will convert the biocake and seeds into food.

For TAC-LS use, 1 Kerbal consumes 0.317kg of food every 86400 seconds. Thus far my focus on TAC-LS compatibility has been focusing on oxygen production. My sense is that, on the "easy" difficulty, a single large plant greenhouse should only produce enough food for 1 kerbal. I just did some simple maths and came up with 1 greenhouse supporting 18 kerbals (!!!!). Clearly this is too much of a cheat.

Thoughts?

Also, every time I use the small greenhouse, when I launch the vessel, its converted to a Large Greenhouse, clipping inside the adjacent parts. Reverting the flight to the SPH, has it as a large greenhouse in the editor now as well.

Ok. That's clearly a bug. I will look at it and update github tonight if it's a trivial fix. Keep in mind the small greenhouses are meant to be 1/4 as effective as a single large one. It's meant to be a tradeoff between launch mass and efficiency. You can more easily launch small ones, but you need more of them.

[Nachocuban]

Looking at your greenhouse config file, and just that.

The Greenhouse consumes...

.0099861111 Seeds

.00000858 Waste Water

.00080054 Carbon Dioxide

And Produces...

.00012909 Water

.00368343 Oxygen

.00119925 BioMass

Whats the time frame on this? How long does it take for the Generator modules on the Greenhouse to do 1 cycle?

Using 6 seed boxes, I was unable to fill the Biomass in the greenhouse (Which if I understand right, is how it produces more seeds (which I don't see in the code, but I didn't look hard)) before I ran out of seeds.

The Koylent maker uses .001 Seeds and .001 BC to make .001 Food. If you are doing all the resources based on mass (I think I read that somewhere) shouldn't it produce .002 Food?

As for the small greenhouse, I was attaching it between a probe core, and the large greenhouse everytime it super sized, I didn't think to try and put it in other places.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Nachocuban

[seanth]

Looking at your greenhouse config file, and just that.

The Greenhouse consumes...

.0099861111 Seeds

.00000858 Waste Water

.00080054 Carbon Dioxide

And Produces...

.00012909 Water

.00368343 Oxygen

.00119925 BioMass

I...don't know where those numbers are coming from. I can find some of those values in how the cfg is set up. Are you getting these values empirically from a craft? If you can help me understand where those #s are coming from I can see if I can help explain better

Whats the time frame on this? How long does it take for the Generator modules on the Greenhouse to do 1 cycle?

Consumption is units/second. So, for example, in "normal" difficulty the large plant greenhouse consumes 0.00213333L of CO2/second and produces 0.00013186kg biomass/second.

Using 6 seed boxes, I was unable to fill the Biomass in the greenhouse (Which if I understand right, is how it produces more seeds (which I don't see in the code, but I didn't look hard)) before I ran out of seeds.

Each seed box comes with 2kg of seeds if you don't tweak things. The conversion of seeds to biomass is 1:0.1, as in 1kg of seeds will germinate to give you 0.1kg of biomass. To fill the plant greenhouse on normal difficulty, you would need 250kg of seeds. Or you could germinate the seeds and allow the biomass to grow to capacity. Think that's too low of a conversion?

As for the small plant greenhouse, I can't replicate the bug you are seeing. Here's a quick test craft I made:

It could just be that what I have is slightly different than the github version you have.

People can check out the tool I use for helping in calculations here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ca0aushu5un6cmn/Public%20BioMass%20Calculation%20Helper%20v3.xls

Edit: Github updated as of 23:47 MT 2014-01-28

[koksny]

Is there any way to fix broken (as, in game status of part is "broken") greenhouse? Can i edit part file somehow to include "repair" action, just like with wheels? Because right now, trying to land it, drive attached to some hideous construction rover and dock to base is huge PITA without breaking it. And it would be ok, if kerbal on EVA could repair it, but right now... would changing "breakingForce" help?

Balance wise - i really dont see why it should be so fragile, at least when closed. While open i can understand that solar panels could get maimed by enviroment, but in closed state it shoud be really kinda sturdier. It's basicaly metal tube with some electric engines, dont really see reason why they should magically break at one or two m/s impact. Or they indeed should, but just to require EVA interaction, since it's cool to be able do things with Kerbals themselves.

Also, in last GitHub release the small greenhouse is borked, as reported earlier. I was able to unlock it in R&D but it's greyed out in VAB.

And since i'm just implementing these parts into base - can i somehow get Koylent generator functionality and attach it to other part model? For now i keep it in cargo bay, just because the texture stands out so much (Also, 1,25m). Can i get, for example, model file from TAC, copy it and change "mesh" value from config to use it? Or would it be easier to just rescale it and replace texture?

My sense is that, on the "easy" difficulty, a single large plant greenhouse should only produce enough food for 1 kerbal. I just did some simple maths and came up with 1 greenhouse supporting 18 kerbals (!!!!). Clearly this is too much of a cheat.

As someone who broke thousand hours into KSP but plays really casualy, i would be really against such balancing. Getting one large greenhouse anywhere is pretty difficult already. But it's ok - it's not difficulty that's problem. It would mean that for every decently sized base/station you would need at least 6 of them (!) on "Easy" setting (!!). What means that for "normal" half of my space station should be forest. And that would be great, if not... Part count.

In the state of the game right now, i'm absolutly against requiring player to use multiple instances of same part. It is simply too hard to keep up basic usability of base/station as it is now, when the game can drop down to really low framerate after reaching over 150, 200 parts.

Right now, to provide simple space station to dock, refuel and possibly do some science in labs, you will end in the range of 100-150 parts. Things are fine as long as there is no ship trying to dock. When another 50-100 parts loads, framerate will drop. And the game fun value drops too. Vastly.

Trying to provide infinite support of food to my station by docking multiple copies of same part is not fun nor difficult. It's just tedious. It's basically grind, and if i have to fly 6 times to provide food supply by greenhouses, i will probably pass, because i can simply transport 6 times required cargo, just as i would do it before BM+S.

If you are really concerned about keeping things balanced, consider at least revaluing your take on difficulty settings. I'm not simulaton freak, as i don't use Real Solar System mod, but as someone who plays with FAR, DeadlyReentry, RemoteTech and TAC i'm really gonna use... Easy setting. Probably even further moded, just to be able to support up to 6 Kerbals from one greenhouse.

I know you really did the calculations, and that it's the proper way of implementing it, but i would really consider the mathematicaly correct take as "hard" setting. It's just not fun to spam same module, it drops down framerate and it makes small greenhouse basically useless. Unless i want to feed the Goo.

Personally i would just make greenhouse and equipment required to produce food much, much heavier. Like, 5 to 10 times heavier. They could also require the KSPI megajoul power supply, instead of just slapping some solar panels around. Make them bite and scream obscenities at player, but dont require me to send dozen copies of same rocket just to provide Jeb with some algae cake, at that point it would be easier for Kerbals to just evolve into photosynthesis (back).

EDIT: Also after some thought, i'm against the idea of seeds being required to grow plants (at least at low difficult level). It's more logical for me to think of the Greenhouse as already prepared to production before start - and it's just to vessel crew to jumpstart the reaction (with water and light). After the reaction is started, the grow should provide seeds for next grow cycle indefinitly.

Thinking here about seeds just as material for cake and reaction starter for greenhouse, if the grow was stopped for some reason. Again, seems counter productive to send dozens of seed boxes, just to get very little in terms of mass back in food, while losing a lot in terms of framerate.

God damn, i'm just realizing i probably should do something that specific of mod myself, instead of providing useless "mewanna" rant.

Edited January 29, 2014 by koksny
Balance wise rant

[seanth]

<a lot>

Ok. Let's see if I can tackle these, more-or-less in the order things were in

Is there any way to fix broken (as, in game status of part is "broken") greenhouse? Can i edit part file somehow to include "repair" action, just like with wheels?

I'll talk to roboto about this. I've never had a broken one, myself, but I also have not tried landing one anywhere. We've had other people break greenhouses before and I think roboto has a solution in mind.

Also, in last GitHub release the small greenhouse is borked, as reported earlier. I was able to unlock it in R&D but it's greyed out in VAB.

Just pushed a change to github that will hopefully fix this. If this doesn't fix it, I'm not sure why it is still greyed out.

can i somehow get Koylent generator functionality and attach it to other part model? For now i keep it in cargo bay, just because the texture stands out so much (Also, 1,25m). Can i get, for example, model file from TAC, copy it and change "mesh" value from config to use it? Or would it be easier to just rescale it and replace texture?

The koylent maker is an unfinished part, so the texture isn't finalized yet. Yes, you can move the functionality onto one of TAC's hockeypucks. Are you asking for a 1.25m version of the koylent maker?

Also after some thought, i'm against the idea of seeds being required to grow plants (at least at low difficult level).

It is possible to accidentally kill off all your biomass, either through over harvesting or not providing the greenhouses with enough light. We implemented seeds when we found ourselves in situations where we have killed off everything by mistake. Because biomass respires (consumes a bit of itself and oxygen to stay alive), even if you transported new biomass, you would arrive with less of it then what you started with. Think of seeds as stable ways to transport biomass.

If you are really concerned about keeping things balanced, consider at least revaluing your take on difficulty settings. I'm not simulaton freak, as i don't use Real Solar System mod, but as someone who plays with FAR, DeadlyReentry, RemoteTech and TAC i'm really gonna use... Easy setting. Probably even further moded, just to be able to support up to 6 Kerbals from one greenhouse.

I get where you are coming from. Right now one large plant greenhouse produces enough O2 for 3 kerbals on easy mode. I can probably game the numbers to make the greenhouse support 3, or even 6 kerbals on Easy mode. For an idea of how big the large greenhouses are, picture a compact car's parking spot, roughly 2m by 3.25m. Now imagine growing enough food in that area for a child. Every day. So on hard mode, a single greenhouse probably won't produce enough food for 1 kerbal. On easy mode, I would lean to one greenhouse supporting 3 kerbals, but can see a case for it supporting more. Certainly not 18, though.

...and it makes small greenhouse basically useless. Unless i want to feed the Goo.

The small greenhouses are going to be scientific experiments as well. They are there to help teach the player that X kg of biomass produces Y L of O2. That way they can start making informed build decisions using actual in-game science experiments. They are meant for use in near-Kerbal orbit, early in career mode, to let the player figure out how to use them. They are not meant for later deep-space missions. Though they might be handy in testing how well plants grow closer to and further from the sun. So, yeah: think of them more as science experiments and less as things to maintain stations with.

Personally i would just make greenhouse and equipment required to produce food much, much heavier. Like, 5 to 10 times heavier.

Check out the aquatic greenhouse. When full and functioning it should weigh around 35tonnes. That's approximately 6x heavier than the empty version, and is a significant amount of water to transport up. I would not want to launch a completely full aquatic greenhouse. The aquatic greenhouse doesn't produce seeds (you could have a small plant greenhouse just for producing seeds), but it does produce a lot of biomass.

Thinking here about seeds just as material for cake and reaction starter for greenhouse, if the grow was stopped for some reason. Again, seems counter productive to send dozens of seed boxes, just to get very little in terms of mass back in food, while losing a lot in terms of framerate.

I am confused why people are launching lots of seed boxes up. Why not a single seed box, and then let the biomass grow like it is supposed to? Are people trying to fill a greenhouse as quickly as possible? If that's the case, wouldn't it be easier to adjust the amount of biomass in a greenhouse when building a craft?

This is a stupid question, but, do people realize that biomass increases over time? You don't need to just use seeds to get biomass. You just...let it grow. If people are frustrated about the amount of time required, think about how a kethane probe needs to be selected and just allowed to do its polar orbit. I have just let my computer run overnight while scanning for kethane. Turns out the phrase "watching grass grow" is for real. Now, if your frustrated about not being able to select other ships while a greenhouse does its thing...I want that to change, too.

God damn, i'm just realizing i probably should do something that specific of mod myself, instead of providing useless "mewanna" rant.

Feedback is good, especially specific suggestions. Bug fixes are even better.

Edited January 29, 2014 by seanth

[Nachocuban]

I...don't know where those numbers are coming from. I can find some of those values in how the cfg is set up. Are you getting these values empirically from a craft? If you can help me understand where those #s are coming from I can see if I can help explain better

I took all the always running generators, and combined all the input and outputs. For instance, H20: 2 Generators intake it at .00000858 and .00000556 and 3 generators output it at .00000686, .00000686, and .00000603. For a net Water of +.00012909 I did the same with all the resources, they are net values.

As for the small plant greenhouse, I can't replicate the bug you are seeing. Here's a quick test craft I made:

I'll post a picture of my problem when I get home from work.

I get where you are coming from. Right now one large plant greenhouse produces enough O2 for 3 kerbals on easy mode. I can probably game the numbers to make the greenhouse support 3, or even 6 kerbals on Easy mode. For an idea of how big the large greenhouses are, picture a compact car's parking spot, roughly 2m by 3.25m. Now imagine growing enough food in that area for a child. Every day. So on hard mode, a single greenhouse probably won't produce enough food for 1 kerbal. On easy mode, I would lean to one greenhouse supporting 3 kerbals, but can see a case for it supporting more. Certainly not 18, though.

I feel the large green houses should probably be able to support 3.x Kerbils, on normal mode. they are 2.5m parts, and that generally means a 3man pod, with the .x leftover in case of docking or emergencies. I haven't used the aquatic yet, but if you can produce much more with one of those, and have another regular greenhouse to produce just seeds, than that would be good for larger stations.

The small greenhouses are going to be scientific experiments as well. They are there to help teach the player that X kg of biomass produces Y L of O2. That way they can start making informed build decisions using actual in-game science experiments. They are meant for use in near-Kerbal orbit, early in career mode, to let the player figure out how to use them. They are not meant for later deep-space missions. Though they might be handy in testing how well plants grow closer to and further from the sun. So, yeah: think of them more as science experiments and less as things to maintain stations with.

I like this.

I am confused why people are launching lots of seed boxes up. Why not a single seed box, and then let the biomass grow like it is supposed to? Are people trying to fill a greenhouse as quickly as possible? If that's the case, wouldn't it be easier to adjust the amount of biomass in a greenhouse when building a craft?

Bringing 1 box of seeds doesn't seem to work, after the 2kg of seeds are used, BM is no longer produced, and it just sits idle (I timewarped for 30 days IIRC with no change in BM)

[seanth]

Bringing 1 box of seeds doesn't seem to work, after the 2kg of seeds are used, BM is no longer produced, and it just sits idle (I timewarped for 30 days IIRC with no change in BM)

I might know what is going on. I just made some minor changes to a few parts on github to speed up how the compressors release gas, and to help people out, I just recorded a video example of using a greenhouse. It's not a great video, does the job. After watching the first video, I recorded an addendum because I realized I made an error in illustrating biomass growth because not all of the seeds had germinated.

Example:

Addendum video:

In general treat the plant biomass in the game as you would a real plant: to get the biomass to grow, you need light, water, carbon dioxide, and oxygen. If you are using biomass with TAC-LS and are attaching a greenhouse to a crewed capsule, you probably already have all of these resources available. If not, you can attach the provided tanks and compressor/release valve parts to turn oxidizer into oxygen and compressed CO2 into CO2 gas.

In the video example I transfer the gasses and water into the greenhouse, but that shouldn't be necessary. I find it can be easier to make sure things are working if I transfer a small amount of water, CO2 and O2 into a greenhouse when it first starts so I can see the amounts changing

[seanth]

I took all the always running generators, and combined all the input and outputs. For instance, H20: 2 Generators intake it at .00000858 and .00000556 and 3 generators output it at .00000686, .00000686, and .00000603. For a net Water of +.00012909 I did the same with all the resources, they are net values.

Ok. I see. Taking all the always active generators can be misleading, because some of those rxns assume a resource will be present which isn't always present. WasteWater, for example. I recently took the time to convert the masses of gasses and liquids to Liters vs kg for better TAC-LS integration.

Here's a breakdown of net outputs, per large plant greenhouse, by difficulty level:

Easy: 1kg seed yields 0.1kg seed. O2 net production: 0.002283L/sec. CO2 net consumption: 0.002283L/sec. H2O net consumption: 0.0000018L/sec. Biomass net production: 0.00033kg/sec

Normal: 1kg seed yields 0.1kg seed. O2 net production: 0.00156L/sec. CO2 net consumption: 0.002133L/sec. H2O net consumption: 0.0000017L/sec. Biomass net production: 0.00013kg/sec

Hard: 1kg seed yields 0.1kg seed. O2 net production: 0.001245L/sec. CO2 net consumption: 0.001706L/sec. H2O net consumption: 0.0000014L/sec. Biomass net production: 0.0000535kg/sec

These values are just estimates, and will differ if you are using waste water instead of water (waste water results in more biomass) or both water and waste water. I think the CO2 values are high for Normal and Hard, but as guidelines, those values should be pretty close.

More breakdown, assuming resources are not limiting and it's being used with TAC-LS and TAC is configured as I suggested in a previous post:

Easy: large plant greenhouse fills with biomass in 6 kerbal days. Provides O2 for 3 kerbals. Produces 4kg seeds/kerbal day when full

Normal: large plant greenhouse fills with biomass in 12 kerbal days. Provides O2 for 2 kerbals. Produces 3kg seeds/kerbal day when full

Hard: large plant greenhouse fills with biomass in 24 kerbal days (close to 25% of a kerbal year). Provides O2 for 1.6 kerbals. Produces 2.3kg seeds/kerbal day when full.

All these values are idealized. More testing is needed to make sure things work as advertised, especially since there are difficulty levels.

I'll post a picture of my problem when I get home from work.

Please do. Also, please downloading the newest from github to see whether the bug is still there.

[koksny]

The koylent maker is an unfinished part, so the texture isn't finalized yet. Yes, you can move the functionality onto one of TAC's hockeypucks. Are you asking for a 1.25m version of the koylent maker?

Isn't it now 1.25m? If it is - i'm asking for 2.5m wide. Basicaly, it would be nice to have wider but maybe shorter version. It again comes down to part count - right now, every Koylent generator in my project adds at least 3 - 5 parts, including adapters, cargo bays and things to just mesh it up with standard, 2.5m parts. It's probably not that bad, as i don't really see use in more than one per base, but still - as someone who takes biggest available battery just so it's in single part (Same with with KOSMOS Solar Panles, god bless that behemoths in 1 sweet part), using adapters just so i can nicely connect it to Hitchhiker or one of labs takes performance a little bit down.

As Nachocuban wrote:

I feel the large green houses should probably be able to support 3.x Kerbils, on normal mode. they are 2.5m parts, and that generally means a 3man pod, with the .x leftover in case of docking or emergencies.

And i generally agree with it. One large greenhouse to sustain 3 Kerbals seem to me as bare minimum from gameplay perspective. Right now operable space station requires at least 6 Kerbals to work (3 manned crew for RemoteTech local control connectivity, 2 Kerbals in stock laboratory to clean experiments and 2 Kerbals in KSPI Lab to generate science). That means 3 greenhouses to keep up. And i would really like it to be cut down to 2 for the most simple reason ever - symmetry. Especially that there is no other part in game atm with similiar mass/shape.

It is possible to accidentally kill off all your biomass, either through over harvesting or not providing the greenhouses with enough light. We implemented seeds when we found ourselves in situations where we have killed off everything by mistake. Because biomass respires (consumes a bit of itself and oxygen to stay alive), even if you transported new biomass, you would arrive with less of it then what you started with. Think of seeds as stable ways to transport biomass.

This is a stupid question, but, do people realize that biomass increases over time? You don't need to just use seeds to get biomass. You just...let it grow.

And... that's true. I mean, i realized it (as it's logical), but really deep in my head was still the idea - i need constant amount of seeds to get constant amount of biomass. Guess i was thinking of it more as of fuel than i should.

I get where you are coming from. Right now one large plant greenhouse produces enough O2 for 3 kerbals on easy mode. I can probably game the numbers to make the greenhouse support 3, or even 6 kerbals on Easy mode. For an idea of how big the large greenhouses are, picture a compact car's parking spot, roughly 2m by 3.25m. Now imagine growing enough food in that area for a child. Every day. So on hard mode, a single greenhouse probably won't produce enough food for 1 kerbal. On easy mode, I would lean to one greenhouse supporting 3 kerbals, but can see a case for it supporting more. Certainly not 18, though.

To be perfectly honest, i can absolutly imagine a small room filled with loads of cuckooflower able to keep up 3 adult people alive as long as it's regenerated. And i'm talking here cuckooflower, not space algeas powered by nuclear reactors contained in cutting edge technology, where every inch is probably filled with it. But i would be absolutly fine with the idea that one 2.5m greenhouse provides food for 3 kerbal mission. Still, then i would love 3.25m greenhouse part, just so it would be more convieniant at space stations and surface bases, where as 2.5m double greenhouse would be still great for motherships, where symmetrical load balance matters.

The small greenhouses are going to be scientific experiments as well. They are there to help teach the player that X kg of biomass produces Y L of O2. That way they can start making informed build decisions using actual in-game science experiments. They are meant for use in near-Kerbal orbit, early in career mode, to let the player figure out how to use them. They are not meant for later deep-space missions. Though they might be handy in testing how well plants grow closer to and further from the sun. So, yeah: think of them more as science experiments and less as things to maintain stations with.

That is absolutly sensible and i wish i had them for this sole testing purpose at the beggining of my 0.23 career mode. Indeed, great way to introduce technology and look how it works on first life-supported space station. And more science is always great.

Check out the aquatic greenhouse. When full and functioning it should weigh around 35tonnes. That's approximately 6x heavier than the empty version, and is a significant amount of water to transport up. I would not want to launch a completely full aquatic greenhouse. The aquatic greenhouse doesn't produce seeds (you could have a small plant greenhouse just for producing seeds), but it does produce a lot of biomass.

Ok, now i'm a bit confused and i guess i have overthinked again. So aquatic greenhouse is same part as normal greenhouse, except it does not produce seeds? I was sure it's aquatic in the sense it works only when submerged in liquid on Kerbin/Laythe/Eve. I'm dumbass.

I am confused why people are launching lots of seed boxes up. Why not a single seed box, and then let the biomass grow like it is supposed to? Are people trying to fill a greenhouse as quickly as possible? If that's the case, wouldn't it be easier to adjust the amount of biomass in a greenhouse when building a craft?

If i would do it, and launch it fully filled with BioMass, do i need more than one seed container on ship? If not, and it would just make it work immidietly with high efficiency... Well that's a great feature design, and again, i'm dumbass for not using this method earlier. Looks great on paper, since it allows for sending "ready to deploy" heavy weight Greenhouses, and compact DIY-on-orbit "IKEA" versions. Well done, i guess?

If people are frustrated about the amount of time required, think about how a kethane probe needs to be selected and just allowed to do its polar orbit. I have just let my computer run overnight while scanning for kethane. Turns out the phrase "watching grass grow" is for real. Now, if your frustrated about not being able to select other ships while a greenhouse does its thing...I want that to change, too.

It's kind of problematic in playstyle that requires setting a lot of Kerbal Alarm Clock events, since you dont want to just time warp at single vessel and look for it (because it means that life support on other vessels is running out too), but personally i don't have any issue with this, it just requires now setting up from time to time another event alarm for refilling food containers. That just adds requirement for interaction, something that will be probably gone when you introduce out-of-range resource generation (And i dont think i like it?)

Feedback is good, especially specific suggestions. Bug fixes are even better.

Well, so TL;DR, my specific suggestions this time would be 2.5m Koylent maker and 3.25 greenhouses. It solves in my opinion quite few issues, even balancewise, and just increases part creep by 2. Obviously can't wait for greenhouse repair feature too. Seriously tho, great thanks for this awesome support, it really helps to understand the reasoning and ideas author had in mind when pretty complex systems are involved (And at this stage i really think the only one more feature complex mod is FAR, because of sheer amount of maths required in aerodynamics)

[Nachocuban]

Using the new github this problem is fixed, here is what was happening for completions sake.

http://imgur.com/a/UofmO#0

[Nachocuban]

After mucking around with it some more, (I didn't realize I needed to put o2, Co2, and H20 in the actual greenhouse for it to work, and I was also going at 1000x TW which I see causes the BM to go down no matter what, so that might have been part of the issue I had in figuring it out, I will do some more testing tomorrow.

[seanth]

After mucking around with it some more, (I didn't realize I needed to put o2, Co2, and H20 in the actual greenhouse for it to work

You shouldn't need to have them in the greenhouse as long as they are generally available. I like to transfer them to the greenhouse when testing as it makes it easier to see whether amounts are changing.

[Nachocuban]

It was probably just my Time warping then, as I'm pretty sure I was at max warp.

Also, how do you net seeds? It seems that I am always consuming them.

[koksny]

It was probably just my Time warping then, as I'm pretty sure I was at max warp.

Also, how do you net seeds? It seems that I am always consuming them.

Select "Generate Seeds" from the Greenhouse menu, instead of generate biomass.