Stop Making Science Grindy

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

The new lab is awful in its current configuration. I prefer the 2.2 science method to this rusty mobile home sitting on blocks that serves no real purpose other than frustrating myself. Instead of grinding out the same science over and over (visiting same location multiple times), make everything more expensive. Give all science possible on the first go round, and allow transmission only through a science lab with 100% transmission. I personally refuse to play the game in the current stock way and have changed configs to allow the above suggestions (I pretend I can only transmit science through a lab). Again, the balance is to make things more expensive, not turn career mode into an MMO style grindfest that numbs the brain.

Themohawkninja · December 31, 2013

So, replace grinding with getting everything the first try?

That's not making it less grindy, that's just making it super-easy. 100% transmission would mean that there is no incentive to return to Kerbin (aside from the measly points of "returning a craft that landed on <body>").

Not to mention that the 0.22 science method was far more grindy due to the ease of science spamming.

austincurr · December 31, 2013

I agree that the science is not quite right, but not in the way you're screaming about. I think there should be some science only able to be gotten by a kerbal doing what KSC tells him to do to the rocks and such in their natural environment, some acheivable by processing in the lab with better tools, some/most acheivable by returning the data to the space center. And each way (returning, transmitting, experimenting in lab module) should pull from its own pool of science because again there are certain things that can only be done on the scene, and others that can only be done with advanced equipment. Thermometers and such should only give science once and at 100% because temperature is just a number. Anything can have an antenna, why only transmit from a lab? And while we need to prevent infinitely repeating something, if you finish everything first try, what's left? Make it possible to do so if you want to build a single huge ship with tons of science parts, but otherwise, if you remember doing a science project for school, didn't they want you to repeat your experiment a few times to show your results are correct? Something else to give more content to sciency things would be getting close-up pictures and data on planets which previously existed as only a colored dot in the sky. Not discovering planets, but maybe their moons. Things don't need to be more expensive, if they were, it would be more grindy as you send out tons of missions to finally unlock the next thing on the science tree.

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

So, replace grinding with getting everything the first try?
That's not making it less grindy, that's just making it super-easy. 100% transmission would mean that there is no incentive to return to Kerbin (aside from the measly points of "returning a craft that landed on <body>").
Not to mention that the 0.22 science method was far more grindy due to the ease of science spamming.

There is no way 0.22 was more grindy. So I sit somewhere and transmit repeatedly for 5 minutes. That's nothing like the pitiful transmist returns we get now. Playing stock requires multiple missions to get 100% of the science. How is that less grindy than transmission spam that lasts only 5 or 10 minutes?

There are certainly some balance issues that need to be addressed in what I'm suggesting, but I refuse to do a million missions to the same place to get all the science. Especially when there are multiple biomes. The lab, in its current form, is just simply garbage, period. For myself making it a requirement for even being able to transmit science is the only way to make it useful. But the amount transmittable has to be 100% or near 100%, which I make it with a config change. My main point though is that the approach is all wrong. Don't require grinding for science at the same locales, but make everything more expensive instead.

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

Things don't need to be more expensive, if they were, it would be more grindy as you send out tons of missions to finally unlock the next thing on the science tree.

Well, yeah. The idea is to expand exploration, not make people hit the same biome repeatedly. Going to the same place over and over again is the definition of grinding. Being forced to move on to Duna or Eve to obtain more science is exploration expansion.

Edit: I want to expand on this and point out that I have done in my own career exactly what I am suggesting here. I inflated the prices of all tech nodes considerably, and it isn't grindy. I plan and complete missions to specific biomes, and move on.

Thermometers and such should only give science once and at 100% because temperature is just a number. Anything can have an antenna, why only transmit from a lab?

The idea is that only a lab can process the data and samples off of Kerbin.

Edited December 31, 2013 by NotCoach

Themohawkninja · December 31, 2013

There is no way 0.22 was more grindy. So I sit somewhere and transmit repeatedly for 5 minutes. That's nothing like the pitiful transmist returns we get now. Playing stock requires multiple missions to get 100% of the science. How is that less grindy than transmission spam that lasts only 5 or 10 minutes?

It forces you to go out and return to Kerbin, and actually explore the different biomes if you don't return to Kerbin.

There are certainly some balance issues that need to be addressed in what I'm suggesting, but I refuse to do a million missions to the same place to get all the science. Especially when there are multiple biomes. The lab, in its current form, is just simply garbage, period. For myself making it a requirement for even being able to transmit science is the only way to make it useful. But the amount transmittable has to be 100% or near 100%, which I make it with a config change. My main point though is that the approach is all wrong. Don't require grinding for science at the same locales, but make everything more expensive instead.

The lab allows you to increase transmission values and reset experiments infinite times, thereby allowing you to only require one goo canister and one materials bay at a time. It's far from garbage.

Secondly, doing multiple missions to get all of the science is actually how science works in reality (sort of). You do multiple experiments in the same place over and over again to weed out every radical number so you can get the most accurate picture of the experimented environment. As far as gameplay is concerned, it gives the player an incentive to go back and explore the body some more.

Thirdly, there would be absolutely no point in returning Kerbals to Kerbin (aside from the aforementioned science points), thereby giving players less incentives to bring Kerbals back to Kerbin (which makes the tech tree that much easier to fill out as you could just send a ship into interplanetary space, and occasionally burn up or down an orbit to get science from another body and get the full 100% value of it without ever landing back on Kerbin).

While I do agree that things need to be made more expensive, making everything else easier is just going to cancel out the fact that the tech tree would be more expensive.

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

It forces you to go out and return to Kerbin, and actually explore the different biomes if you don't return to Kerbin.
The lab allows you to increase transmission values and reset experiments infinite times, thereby allowing you to only require one goo canister and one materials bay at a time. It's far from garbage.
Secondly, doing multiple missions to get all of the science is actually how science works in reality (sort of). You do multiple experiments in the same place over and over again to weed out every radical number so you can get the most accurate picture of the experimented environment. As far as gameplay is concerned, it gives the player an incentive to go back and explore the body some more.
Thirdly, there would be absolutely no point in returning Kerbals to Kerbin (aside from the aforementioned science points), thereby giving players less incentives to bring Kerbals back to Kerbin (which makes the tech tree that much easier to fill out as you could just send a ship into interplanetary space, and occasionally burn up or down an orbit to get science from another body and get the full 100% value of it without ever landing back on Kerbin).
While I do agree that things need to be made more expensive, making everything else easier is just going to cancel out the fact that the tech tree would be more expensive.

I agree there needs to be incentive to return kerbals to Kerbin, but I don't think the current implementation is the proper way. Perhaps limit the amount of science obtainable to 50% through transmission (without doing the same experiments multiple times in the same biome), and give the other 50% on a successful return of kerbals to Kerbin who did the science. And there should be an entirely different mechanic for incentivising returning to the same biome multiple times, in my view. And it should be a resource based reason. Exotic resources needed for advanced equipment only obtainable in these biomes. Yes, I know they said they are abandoning resource farming, but this is the suggestion forum after all. I suggest they are wrong to do so.

TexRob · December 31, 2013

I agree that the science is not quite right, but not in the way you're screaming about. I think there should be some science only able to be gotten by a kerbal doing what KSC tells him to do to the rocks and such in their natural environment, some acheivable by processing in the lab with better tools, some/most acheivable by returning the data to the space center. And each way (returning, transmitting, experimenting in lab module) should pull from its own pool of science because again there are certain things that can only be done on the scene, and others that can only be done with advanced equipment. Thermometers and such should only give science once and at 100% because temperature is just a number. Anything can have an antenna, why only transmit from a lab? And while we need to prevent infinitely repeating something, if you finish everything first try, what's left? Make it possible to do so if you want to build a single huge ship with tons of science parts, but otherwise, if you remember doing a science project for school, didn't they want you to repeat your experiment a few times to show your results are correct? Something else to give more content to sciency things would be getting close-up pictures and data on planets which previously existed as only a colored dot in the sky. Not discovering planets, but maybe their moons. Things don't need to be more expensive, if they were, it would be more grindy as you send out tons of missions to finally unlock the next thing on the science tree.

I definitely agree with this. The mobile lab should be a benefit when used, not just something to make transmitting suck a little less. I definitely like the idea that it can be used only for certain things. Say a sample is 10 science, if you have a lab, you can then turn that 10 into 20, and bring it back. The science module, especially early on, is cumbersome, so rewarding the player for spending the extra time and energy to get a lab there, should give a proper reward. Obviously, the challenge then becomes, have you made it too good to where it's required?

Themohawkninja · December 31, 2013

I agree there needs to be incentive to return kerbals to Kerbin, but I don't think the current implementation is the proper way. Perhaps limit the amount of science obtainable to 50% through transmission (without doing the same experiments multiple times in the same biome), and give the other 50% on a successful return of kerbals to Kerbin who did the science.

That's kind of how it works right now. You can go out and transmit data for far less than 100%, and then go out and get the data again and return it to get more science.

And there should be an entirely different mechanic for incentivising returning to the same biome multiple times, in my view. And it should be a resource based reason. Exotic resources needed for advanced equipment only obtainable in these biomes. Yes, I know they said they are abandoning resource farming, but this is the suggestion forum after all. I suggest they are wrong to do so.

I thought you wanted all science parts to be unlocked at the get-go?

Frostiken · December 31, 2013

The entire point of career mode is to make do with less because you don't have access to everything.

People asking for less grind just don't get it. Why, so you can power through in three hours like in .22 and unlock everything? Isn't that called 'sandbox'?

Science needs MORE grind, not less. Orbital research stations slowly growing plants, rovers roaming around to make seismic maps of an area, etc.

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

I thought you wanted all science parts to be unlocked at the get-go?

Where did I post that?

Themohawkninja · December 31, 2013

Where did I post that?

Oh, my bad, I misinterpreted the phrase "Give all science possible on the first go round" as referring to the instruments, not the points.

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

The entire point of career mode is to make do with less because you don't have access to everything.

Agreed.

People asking for less grind just don't get it.

No, I get it. I played years of MMOs. Grind is lazy garbage. Experiencing the game should be any developers goal.

Why, so you can power through in three hours like in .22 and unlock everything? Isn't that called 'sandbox'?
Science needs MORE grind, not less. Orbital research stations slowly growing plants, rovers roaming around to make seismic maps of an area, etc.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. The point is not to unlock everything instantly, but to not do repetitive tasks just because that's the lazy man's solution to content.

JumpsterG · December 31, 2013

I don't think the science system is overly grindy right now (could maybe be improved still, but not broken). I'd wager, many people are simply getting bored of collecting science, since it seems like the only thing to do in career mode, right now. The rest of the grinding complaints, I feel, come from trying too hard to get all science from individual biomes before moving on.

Currently, filling out the whole tech tree does not require sucking each biome dry. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but there is way more potential science around the Kerbol system then the total needed to complete the tech tree. You're probably most efficient if you only do 1 mission to each biome since each mission is bringing back the maximum points per trip. Once you've exhausted all options for a first mission, then start revisiting.

My point is, if you find it grindy right now, it's maybe because you're collecting from one biome at a time and that biome is exponentially decreasing in value each time you visit. The first 50% or so science points can be collected in just 2 missions, whereas to get the rest will take at least 4 more. I need to run the numbers to back this up, but you can see that those 4 missions are better spent visiting 2 new biomes than squeezing the first. If you want to make it your goal to collect ALL science from each biome, that's fine too, but realize going into it that it takes a lot of time and is unnecessary.

Regarding the science lab: I feel its bonus to transmission is just that: a bonus. It's not a game changer for transmitting data home, just nets you a few extra points. The reseting of experiments is the real purpose of the lab, and it allows for reusable science vessels where otherwise you'd have to launch brand new missions. It's a mission extender, allowing your science gathering to be more efficiently done when planned well. It's definitely not a necessity though, and could be argued as a weak addition to the parts list, though that's not my opinion.

austincurr · December 31, 2013

Well, yeah. The idea is to expand exploration, not make people hit the same biome repeatedly. Going to the same place over and over again is the definition of grinding. Being forced to move on to Duna or Eve to obtain more science is exploration expansion.
Edit: I want to expand on this and point out that I have done in my own career exactly what I am suggesting here. I inflated the prices of all tech nodes considerably, and it isn't grindy. I plan and complete missions to specific biomes, and move on.
The idea is that only a lab can process the data and samples off of Kerbin.

The definition of grinding is doing the same thing or something that is *perceived* as the same repeatedly without enough variation to prevent boredom, at least to me. A good way to prevent boredom is to unlock more parts. I don't want to have to send out multiple copies of the same craft to say, 10 places, whether biome, moon, or planet in order to unlock the next node. I want to be able to improve my rockets with new parts fairly often depending on how well I fly. For instance, in my first 3 or 4 missions I went to minmus, the mun, and eve (didn't return from eve). That was my choice. Having done so, I was able to unlock parts I wanted. If I'd done that and still didn't have much of anything unlocked I'd feel like there was nothing to do but grind by repeatedly sending spacecraft out desperately looking for places I hadn't been to yet. It should take more than one mission to completely exhaust the information it is possible to gather from an area- but repeating a mission gives less and less science and is not infinitely repeatable. That makes going somewhere else more feasible but if you aren't able to then you can hit the same ones again a couple times so you have that part you need to go further. We do more than one mission to a place in real life. As for only a lab being able to process data, when the astronauts landed on the moon you can bet they were talking about what they saw to mission control and they didn't need a lab to describe what the rock right in front of them looked like. They couldn't do a complex analysis of its chemical make-up, but that doesn't mean they couldn't transmit what they could observe. Eva reports should be transmitted because the kerbal should be answering questions asked by KSC and is actually currently in the environment. Crew reports are more of a write-up after the fact where it's only by memory but there's more time to think and describe better. These should be worth almost as much transmitted as not because the bonus of a vessel having gone somewhere and returned covers the interviews on return, but should take a semi-long time to transmit since they'd be either a long essay needing error prevention due to slow analog communication (or some other excuse) or the kerbal needs time to speak to mission control if they are to transmit. (better excuse)

Anyway a thermometer or any of those other simple sensors is not something which needs to be returned or processed. If it's -160 degrees it's -160 degrees.

austincurr · December 31, 2013

That's kind of how it works right now. You can go out and transmit data for far less than 100%, and then go out and get the data again and return it to get more science.
I thought you wanted all science parts to be unlocked at the get-go?

But that means that if you're able to return the craft you don't even need to transmit anything. That's why I want some stuff like on the spot eva reports to favor transmission over return.

austincurr · December 31, 2013

The entire point of career mode is to make do with less because you don't have access to everything.
People asking for less grind just don't get it. Why, so you can power through in three hours like in .22 and unlock everything? Isn't that called 'sandbox'?
Science needs MORE grind, not less. Orbital research stations slowly growing plants, rovers roaming around to make seismic maps of an area, etc.

But then it's not grind if there's so much different stuff to do. Yes, .22 transmit spam is bad. But don't slow the player down through forcing repetition of similar tasks, rather do as you said and add more experiments and reward making a rover and driving it around instead of plopping down, planting a flag, collecting a surface sample, and leaving to find a new biome to do the same thing, or worse having to return to kerbin and launch another copy of the ship to go to the next biome.

Themohawkninja · December 31, 2013

But that means that if you're able to return the craft you don't even need to transmit anything. That's why I want some stuff like on the spot eva reports to favor transmission over return.

Transmission has its benefits. You're not going to return from the surface of Jool, so you might as well just transmit the data. Not to mention that when it comes to things like Eve, many people might not want to bother attempting a manned landing, and sac the idea of ever getting a sample to instead just plop down a probe to transmit data back to Kerbin.

austincurr · December 31, 2013

Transmission has its benefits. You're not going to return from the surface of Jool, so you might as well just transmit the data. Not to mention that when it comes to things like Eve, many people might not want to bother attempting a manned landing, and sac the idea of ever getting a sample to instead just plop down a probe to transmit data back to Kerbin.

Well yeah but I want it to have more benefits- I want it to be something you do even if you can return your craft. (My reasoning being that some things are best observed in real time in their natural environment, gravity, and pressure) I've said more about that in my other posts.

Themohawkninja · December 31, 2013

Well yeah but I want it to have more benefits- I want it to be something you do even if you can return your craft. (My reasoning being that some things are best observed in real time in their natural environment, gravity, and pressure) I've said more about that in my other posts.

The data that comes from the four original science sensors should give 100% on transmit, since you are just transmitting a number, you can't really lose some of the data without losing it all.

Things like surface samples, goo, and material bays should only be 100% on retrieval, since it all of the science comes from the complicated analysis that can't come from that one space-based lab.

Xenotheos · December 31, 2013

I think most people agree that the data sensors should be transmittable for 100% science, temperature and the like. I also feel that these type of instruments should come before the goo/materials lab(with the exception of gravoli maybe). I personally don't see the benefit of the science lab, I'd rather just stack 8 goos/materials and return with them.

As to the grindy aspect, I honestly have found the science a breeze up to this point (with interstellar tree mind you, not that i've really used much of it yet) and i'm almost through most of the science nodes. I haven't returned to the same place once yet including the Mun and Minmus, even though I know that I've only got 1 biome worth of data from each. Throw your instruments onto an interplanetary ship, collect data high above the planet, just in space outside it, high above it's moon(s), just in space above it's moon(s), and plot a return course, easy.

Miro Beero · December 31, 2013

The entire point of career mode is to make do with less because you don't have access to everything.
People asking for less grind just don't get it. Why, so you can power through in three hours like in .22 and unlock everything? Isn't that called 'sandbox'?
Science needs MORE grind, not less. Orbital research stations slowly growing plants, rovers roaming around to make seismic maps of an area, etc.

I agree with your comment that it needs more of a grind.

What I think it needs however is that science is science. So the fact of doing a science task and getting a % is weird.

There should be many science tasks, each task can get you 100% if you transmit them.

However, some science can only be done by kerbals, and others by science teams and some science must be brought back to kerbal.

What I do not currently like is the right click and rinse and repeat

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

I think most people agree that the data sensors should be transmittable for 100% science, temperature and the like. I also feel that these type of instruments should come before the goo/materials lab(with the exception of gravoli maybe). I personally don't see the benefit of the science lab, I'd rather just stack 8 goos/materials and return with them.
As to the grindy aspect, I honestly have found the science a breeze up to this point (with interstellar tree mind you, not that i've really used much of it yet) and i'm almost through most of the science nodes. I haven't returned to the same place once yet including the Mun and Minmus, even though I know that I've only got 1 biome worth of data from each. Throw your instruments onto an interplanetary ship, collect data high above the planet, just in space outside it, high above it's moon(s), just in space above it's moon(s), and plot a return course, easy.

But it won't stay this way. Someday all bodies will have multiple biomes and they will start balancing career mode. And I can already see the grinding on the wall. I think multiple biomes are fun, and I balance the career tree myself so I don't max everything on day one, but I think having to revisit every single biome multiple times to max science in that biome is just too much.

NotCoach · December 31, 2013

I agree with your comment that it needs more of a grind.
What I think it needs however is that science is science. So the fact of doing a science task and getting a % is weird.
There should be many science tasks, each task can get you 100% if you transmit them.
However, some science can only be done by kerbals, and others by science teams and some science must be brought back to kerbal.
What I do not currently like is the right click and rinse and repeat

This is pretty much what I'm saying. Next time I'll hire you to ghost write for me.

austincurr · December 31, 2013

The data that comes from the four original science sensors should give 100% on transmit, since you are just transmitting a number, you can't really lose some of the data without losing it all.
Things like surface samples, goo, and material bays should only be 100% on retrieval, since it all of the science comes from the complicated analysis that can't come from that one space-based lab.

+1 except what if there's something that changes when removed from its environment or KSC wants Jeb to look at that rock over there and tel them something about it or to pick it to take back.

Stop Making Science Grindy

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