Would you?

[Themohawkninja]

They'd be faced with a choice of work or death, which is being forced to do work under any sensible definition. Money wouldn't even be remotely meaningful in this kind of situation.

Military isn't much different. If you're overseas, you either work or you get court marshalled... or worse. In times when the continuity of the human race is in question, a court martial may turn into a luxury, or at the very least the sentences will get more serious.

[Kryten]

Lastly, it is simply stated that their sole purpose is to work for a company. There are no other alternatives. Slavery is slavery because there are other alternatives. A person in that situation can't do anything else productive, and therefore it's not slavery. If you lived in a mining town and had no way of getting out of the town due to the high cost of moving somewhere else and you therefore must mine, that's not slavery, that's just life.

Let's have a little scenario for you to ponder. It's the year 1944, and you're in a camp in central germany. Every day you have to get up at 4AM and start putting together shell fuses; meet your quota of fuses, and you get some food that day [given in the post after this you identified food for pay as acceptable]. There's no option to leave the camp, given escape is impossible with your resources and you've no means to bribe the guards. Are you a slave?

[Themohawkninja]

Let's have a little scenario for you to ponder. It's the year 1944, and you're in a camp in central germany. Every day you have to get up at 4AM and start putting together shell fuses; meet your quota of fuses, and you get some food that day [given in the post after this you identified food for pay as acceptable]. There's no option to leave the camp, given escape is impossible with your resources and you've no means to bribe the guards. Are you a slave?

No, I wouldn't feel like a slave. I have food, a job to keep me out of trouble, and a society to provide me protection against attack. It would just be like an low-income job in any modern society, except you just cut out the middle-man called money and go straight to the food.

[Kryten]

No, I wouldn't feel like a slave. I have food, a job to keep me out of trouble, and a society to provide me protection against attack. It would just be like an low-income job in any modern society, except you just cut out the middle-man called money and go straight to the food.

I never said it was enough food to keep you alive. [EDIT:]Or that they would protect you from attack for that matter. Given the circumstances, it's more likely they'd actively attack you.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Kryten

[Themohawkninja]

I never said it was enough food to keep you alive.

In that case, it's not so much slavery as it is slowly-induced murder.

That being said, we need to remember the OP's situation that these analogies are derived from. In the case of a massive colony ship in deep space, I'm sure you would be perfectly allowed to leave. No guards or anything, because you would die withing 30 seconds anyways.

Secondly, this colony ship is designed for the continuity of the human race, and therefore the people would have to be fed proper meals which fulfill their dietary needs.

[lajoswinkler]

Nobody said you had to be paid with money. If it's a ship large enough to hold 250k people, you are going to need a lot of people to cook, clean, maintain the ship, etc. How do you get people to do that? Give them food for their work. It's not going to be easy out there in space. It will be run like a military vessel, and as such, work in going to be the key factor of everything.

People onboard a military vessel have made a decision to spend a great deal of time on the vessel.

People in this hypothetical situation have been bred to be workers for the rest of their lives. I think there's a slight difference here.

I'm only a prisoner if I was put there for the purpose of being a prisoner.

This has got to be trolling.

No, cattle don't do work, they're just getting fattened up to die for food. Making people is the basis for the continuity of the human species. Chances are that the nearest habitable planet is a generation or so away at .9999% the speed of light, so it's either make babies, or hope you have mastered cryostasis by then. Since we know how to fertilize eggs outside the womb right now, that's the more reliable tech, and when you are talking about the continuity of your species, reliability is important.

Look at these cows, getting all fat and chilling, ready to be eaten.

If I had no food or water, then they resulted in my death and are therefore murderers, but in the OPs scenario, there would surely be both.

It was an analogy to show the fallacy you were making.

No it's not, because there isn't another option as explained by my mining town analogy which you have yet to refute.

In the case of a mining town, you have the freedom to leave and find another job. You might need to work in the mine to earn some money first, but it's temporary. You've got a potential to leave.

In a tin can, you're stuck with your job, deprived of chances. That's slavery.

If you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it. It is precisely what we're talking about.

Clicking this link will spoil the movie. Sorry.

Edited January 9, 2014 by lajoswinkler

[MBobrik]

How is putting bred kids on a spacecraft to turn them into workers not removal of freedom of choice? It's not like they have other options in such situation.

With or without guardian/parent, that's morally wrong.

People in a newly founded colony would surely have more career options than "worker". Including running off into the wilderness. And nobody said there won't be any parents there.

[Kryten]

In that case, it's not so much slavery as it is slowly-induced murder.

What's the difference? Pay for work, according to you no problem. Same as your mining town analogy; anybody who can't work in the mine starves, and that's just fine.

[lajoswinkler]

In that case, it's not so much slavery as it is slowly-induced murder.

That being said, we need to remember the OP's situation that these analogies are derived from. In the case of a massive colony ship in deep space, I'm sure you would be perfectly allowed to leave. No guards or anything, because you would die withing 30 seconds anyways.

Secondly, this colony ship is designed for the continuity of the human race, and therefore the people would have to be fed proper meals which fulfill their dietary needs.

Let me remind you what the OP asked:

c) Donate sperm or eggs to allow the growth of what is, essentially, a human being whose only purpose in life is to follow orders from a space agency?

It's not a society on a ship. It's a bunch of workers made to keep the ship alive.

[Themohawkninja]

People onboard a military vessel have made a decision to spend a great deal of time on the vessel.

People in this hypothetical situation have been bred to be workers for the rest of their lives. I think there's a slight difference here.

Not if the military members were drafted. Plus, let's face it, you are born into a society with the expectation to work. The only difference is that we are replacing an expectation with a requirement, and as far as living is concerned, it's basically a requirement in today's life as is.

This has got to be trolling.

Nope, just my cold-hearted logic.

It was an analogy to show the fallacy you were making.

A picture may say a thousand words, but it means nothing to those that can't read it. I don't see what the fallacy was via that picture.

In the case of a mining town, you have the freedom to leave and find another job. You might need to work in the mine to earn some money first, but it's temporary. You've got a potential to leave.

In a tin can, you're stuck with your job, deprived of chances. That's slavery.

In the mining town here, we are talking about some impoverished place many miles from another town (think of the the deserts of Texas and New Mexico). You can't just get extra money and leave. The distances are too great, and the risks to high. Even if you somehow managed to get to another town, they may not have any use for a miner, and therefore you'd may be SOL.

If you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it. It is precisely what we're talking about.

http://youtu.be/twuScTcDP_Q

If it's streaming on Netflix I will.

[Themohawkninja]

What's the difference? Pay for work, according to you no problem. Same as your mining town analogy; anybody who can't work in the mine starves, and that's just fine.

Exactly, it is just fine. The difference is, is that in the mining town, you would get fed properly, because the mining town is a town... of people.. which you are a citizen of. This isn't a slave camp where you aren't treated as a human, this is a town where you work to help the society to help yourself.

[Themohawkninja]

Let me remind you what the OP asked:

c) Donate sperm or eggs to allow the growth of what is, essentially, a human being whose only purpose in life is to follow orders from a space agency?

It's not a society on a ship. It's a bunch of workers made to keep the ship alive.

You honestly don't think that the humans on that ship won't develop a society of their own? If people are going to survive in space for generations, a society will blossom, even if it's just in the form of traditions, religions, and a rite of passage or two, but it is very naive to think that multiple generations of humans anywhere won't make some basic societal structure.

[Kryten]

In the mining town here, we are talking about some impoverished place many miles from another town (think of the the deserts of Texas and New Mexico). You can't just get extra money and leave. The distances are too great, and the risks to high. Even if you somehow managed to get to another town, they may not have any use for a miner, and therefore you'd may be SOL.

If somebody deliberately set up the situation that way, then it's still forced labour and hence slavery. If nobody did, your analogy is useless.

[Themohawkninja]

If somebody deliberately set up the situation that way, then it's still forced labour and hence slavery. If nobody did, your analogy is useless.

Somebody had to have deliberately made the town, and the mine, and decided to birth you, just as somebody decided to make the colony ship, and the working areas, and decided who goes and who stays.

[MBobrik]

It's not a society on a ship. It's a bunch of workers made to keep the ship alive.

we are just a bunch of workers made to keep this civilization alive too. it is just a little bigger bunch, that's all. and our ship goes around in circles instead of flying somewhere

[Alchemist]

a) Why not? For science! At least if it something better than one-way trip with limited life support. (I definetely don't want to become another Laika)

Depends... If the project is viable and tech is reliable then it's basically version a.

c) Are you sure it will be a proper human? I mean, with some technology you could reliably grow the "hardware" part, but what about the "software"? You would either need technology to vat-grow adult body (that might be possible if we understand some processes a bit better) and write memories inside the brain (that's much bigger challenge!) or something to normally raise human children without direct control from Earth, meaning such advances in AI and robotics that you wouldn't need lab grown astronauts. For first option I'd also donate a brain image, while second seems kinda inefficient.

[Kryten]

Exactly, it is just fine. The difference is, is that in the mining town, you would get fed properly, because the mining town is a town... of people.. which you are a citizen of. This isn't a slave camp where you aren't treated as a human, this is a town where you work to help the society to help yourself.

The people in the mine get given enough food to survive. You didn't mention there would be any kind of imperative to give them enough for anybody else.

Plenty of people starve, whether they're in 'towns... of people' or not; either they're somewhere most people can barely get enough food to survive as it is, or for societal reasons. I don't see why you expect this society to end being remotely functional, given everybody in it will have to have been brought up by robot; robots not sophisticated enough to just maintain the craft themselves, no less.

[MBobrik]

c) Are you sure it will be a proper human?

.

sentient AI or an uploaded copy of a person would be still a sentient being with all the moral implications.

[Themohawkninja]

The people in the mine get given enough food to survive. You didn't mention there would be any kind of imperative to give them enough for anybody else.

Plenty of people starve, whether they're in 'towns... of people' or not; either they're somewhere most people can barely get enough food to survive as it is, or for societal reasons. I don't see why you expect this society to end being remotely functional, given everybody in it will have to have been brought up by robot; robots not sophisticated enough to just maintain the craft themselves, no less.

I don't see where you are getting robots from.

[Kryten]

I don't see where you are getting robots from.

Given the context of the OP saying this;

A different theory similar to this is freezing embryos, then basically lab-growing astronauts for use on these alien worlds.

C won't exactly mean normal surrogacy. It's robot or nothing.

[lajoswinkler]

So many fallacies and trolling. I give up, this is pointless.

[Alchemist]

sentient AI or an uploaded copy of a person would be still a sentient being with all the moral implications.

That's my point. You can't just grow properly sentient being, you'll need something of this level. And that's completely another morality question than just growing people. Besides, if it's a copy of someone's mind, from the copy's point of view it wouldn't differ much from cryogenic sleep or anything.

As for morality: such technology isn't really evil, but it is terribly imbalanced, even more than immortality. You can't just give it to everyone or you'll create terrible long term problems (modern medicine already resulted in overpopulation in some regions), but limiting this tech to just some specific groups of people will always be perceived as some kind of fascism. You can rule that out in scientific medium, but it's better not to show it to "normal people".

And there's another thought: I'd be glad to live on Mars or somewhere even further in a small community of scientists and engineers far far away from all the craziness of this world

Edited January 10, 2014 by Alchemist

[peadar1987]

Dragging the thread off-topic again:

Video games are getting more and more advanced. If, one day, we can create a sentient AI that will run on a domestic-standard computing device (read:games console), it's not beyond the realms of possibility that some evil company (read:EA), will want to use it to process NPCs in an FPS. Is it immoral for you to play the game? (Ignoring one possible solution I've thought of, but I'm leaving that out for the sake of the question)

[NASAFanboy]

a) Leave your friends and family behind to make history for the rest of the world?

Yes, I would. And gladly so. I am human, and I see it as my moral duty to live, work, and die for my species. I want to leave behind an legacy of an spacefaring civilization when I leave this world, and this is a good way to do it. Human-pride, guys. What's a better wag to die than for doing it for the betterment of the entire human race?

Have yourself frozen to travel to an alien world, knowing that every single human being you have ever (or would have ever) interacted with has been dead for thousands of years? Even assuming that you were not forgotten about, accidentally destroyed, or the technology rendered inoperable?

Yes. As I said above, it would be an honor to die in the process of making mankind an spacefaring race. You gotta have to live for a cause you're willing to die for without any reservations, or you need to find a reason to live.

c Donate sperm or eggs to allow the growth of what is, essentially, a human being whose only purpose in life is to follow orders from a space agency?

Yes. I expect my fellow humans to be willing to sacrafice their lives for the betterment of the entire race.

[Champ]

No, I wouldn't feel like a slave. I have food, a job to keep me out of trouble, and a society to provide me protection against attack. It would just be like an low-income job in any modern society, except you just cut out the middle-man called money and go straight to the food.

You know what ? Real slaves have all of it. Always. Slaves are expensive, so you give them food and protection, so that you won't have to buy another slave too soon. They also have work (really, trust me).

Having protection, food or even being paid does not make you a free man.