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[WIP] MSI's Infernal Robotics - Model Rework (v02 Pre-Release Beta)

ZodiusInfuser

By ZodiusInfuser
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PCanas

PCanas

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Ok, so I downloaded the new models and parts and got two problems:

1- not every part shows on the new "Robotics" category, some of them are in the old category (wich I can't rememeber the name. The icon is a gear) and in "Structure" category.

2- the bigger wheels, those that are paired and can lift/extend (I think their name has "hauler" or something like that), show as not-lifted/extended in the editor, but when you launch the craft, they're lifted/extended all the way, and I get no option, anywhere, to retract them.

Any ideas?

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smjjames

smjjames

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Ok, so I downloaded the new models and parts and got two problems:

1- not every part shows on the new "Robotics" category, some of them are in the old category (wich I can't rememeber the name. The icon is a gear) and in "Structure" category.

2- the bigger wheels, those that are paired and can lift/extend (I think their name has "hauler" or something like that), show as not-lifted/extended in the editor, but when you launch the craft, they're lifted/extended all the way, and I get no option, anywhere, to retract them.

Any ideas?

1. Yeah, a couple of them are in the utilities section. The activestruts parts are in structural because well, that makes sense, plus it was origionally it's own mod, which has stopped development and Zodiusinfuser has taken up as part of the IR package.

2. I would like bigger wheels though without needing to use tweakscale, for me, they're all about the same size.

Also, should we still be calling those activestruts parts 'activestruts'?

And theres gotta be a better solution than the wierd CIS cube thing that the origional author used.

Edited by smjjames
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StahnAileron

StahnAileron

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It's been pointed out to me that the mass of robotic parts greatly affects the strength of their connections. As such, for the next update I'd like to do a complete re-balance of all the part masses in this pack, but I could really use community advice on how to change things. If anyone could play around and offer suggestions of what to change it would be greatly appreciated.

I had been thinking about this actually. I was trying to construct an arm with mainly Extendotrons, but the Hinge Pivotrons and Rotatrons linking them were proving to be the weak point: LOTS of wobble (granted, this WAS on the Launchpad, so a lot of gravity. No load though.)

I'm not sure how the core IR plugin works, but would it be possible to at least strengthen the pivot joints? Even moving just the arm itself was displacing the Hinge Pivotrons at the pivot points. (i.e. The "attach point" between the 2 halves was being stretched apart.) I'm not sure if there is anything you can do to fix that, though. (Other option is REALLY lighten the part mass stats?)

As for masses, I think you can actually lower them a bit and pass it off as using more lightweight materials in construction. Granted, I don't think things like composites (e.g. carbon fiber) in reality would be used in heavy lift systems, but I can image some parts can be replaced. Carbon fiber construction with titanium (alloy?) and/or ceramic reinforcements.

Maybe use FSMeshSwitch and have lighter parts that have a high strength-mass ratio, but can't move too much mass overall (good for moving small-medium objects, like probes and simple station parts), especially under gravity (so meant for space usage mainly). For these parts, maybe you can adapt the solar panel/deployable antenna code for breaking under dynamic pressure for robotic parts that break under mass*gravity thresholds. Some (maybe useful?) reference numbers:

The original Canadarm was capable of deploying or retrieving payloads weighing up to 332.5 kg (733 lb) in space. In the mid-1990s the arm control system was redesigned to increase the payload capability to 3,293 kg (7,260 lb) in order to support space station assembly operations. Although the Canadarm can maneuver massive payloads in space, the arm motors are unable to lift the arm's own weight when on the ground. [...]

The Canadarm is 15.2 m (50 ft) long, and 38 cm (15 in) diameter [...] It weighs 410 kg (900 lb) by itself, and 450 kg (990 lb) as part of the total system.

Other mesh would be heavy duty parts that have lower strength-mass ratio, but can move massive loads, even under gravity. (Good for surface base construction.)

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ZodiusInfuser

ZodiusInfuser

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Ok, so I downloaded the new models and parts and got two problems:

1- not every part shows on the new "Robotics" category, some of them are in the old category (wich I can't rememeber the name. The icon is a gear) and in "Structure" category.

2- the bigger wheels, those that are paired and can lift/extend (I think their name has "hauler" or something like that), show as not-lifted/extended in the editor, but when you launch the craft, they're lifted/extended all the way, and I get no option, anywhere, to retract them.

Any ideas?

Hi PCanas,

1) Only the parts from the Rework pack that contain the Robotics plugin will appear under the Robotics tab. All other things such as Struts, Magnet, and Surface Sampler appear under different tabs because they contain no robotic element. This is something the plugin deals with, meaning I cannot choose which parts go into the robotics tab. Maybe this will be changed in the future.

2) This is the behaviour of the Stock wheel code (normal wheels in KSP also do this), so there's nothing I can do about this (other than switch to using a mod). You're likely noticing this because the Hauler wheel has an unusually long travel distance for its size.

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2. I would like bigger wheels though without needing to use tweakscale, for me, they're all about the same size.

There's are the actual sizes of the wheels: http://i.imgur.com/4hlVCOy.png

You have to remember I made these for the specific purpose of integrating with various robotics applications, so if you can find me reference material for a really large wheel that would also make sense with robotics then I will consider it. Otherwise, I recommend you check out the wheels in Kerbal Foundries.

Also, should we still be calling those activestruts parts 'activestruts'?

And theres gotta be a better solution than the wierd CIS cube thing that the origional author used.

You could call them RoboStruts since that's what they're labelled within KSP. If there isn't then it may be a case that the free-attach mode has to be disabled for the time being, meaning connections have to be created between two RoboStrut parts.

--------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure how the core IR plugin works, but would it be possible to at least strengthen the pivot joints? Even moving just the arm itself was displacing the Hinge Pivotrons at the pivot points. (i.e. The "attach point" between the 2 halves was being stretched apart.) I'm not sure if there is anything you can do to fix that, though. (Other option is REALLY lighten the part mass stats?)

From what I understand there really is nothing that can be done on the plugin side to adjust the strength of the joint within robotics parts, it's just what Unity gives us. The issue with lightening their masses is that people typically add heavy parts onto the end of robotics parts, so the problems they have with strength would be made even worse than it is now.

Some (maybe useful?) reference numbers:

Those are useful numbers, thank you. I'm pretty sure most players want the parts to respond well in a gravity-based environment, so that's really what I need to be balancing the part masses for. I'd rather not have to model a whole new set of parts just to offer a different set of strengths.

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StahnAileron

StahnAileron

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From what I understand there really is nothing that can be done on the plugin side to adjust the strength of the joint within robotics parts, it's just what Unity gives us. The issue with lightening their masses is that people typically add heavy parts onto the end of robotics parts, so the problems they have with strength would be made even worse than it is now.

Those are useful numbers, thank you. I'm pretty sure most players want the parts to respond well in a gravity-based environment, so that's really what I need to be balancing the part masses for. I'd rather not have to model a whole new set of parts just to offer a different set of strengths.

Actually, what kind of joint are you using? The talk able ActiveStruts reminded me that it had a discussion about 2 types of joints. One was typical and weak, and the other was stupidly strong. (I believe the words were along the lines of "the universe will break before these do.") I'm guess you're using the latter, seeing as the hinges don't break apart, correct? I'm starting to find Unity to be quite lacking in some features...

Yeah, I figure most players would just want one set of parts and leave it at that. I just want a lighter, smaller, slimmer set of parts specifically for spaceplane and other launch vehicles. I really wanted some same length Extendotrons, but thinner (about half the current thickness.) The structural parts you made are nice, but you can't compact them down like a stacked set of Extendotrons ^_^ Leave the heavy duty stuff to construction-grade parts.

Thanks for the work ^_~

P.S. Are you ever going to update your sig to reference the new plugin rework as well?

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ZodiusInfuser

ZodiusInfuser

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Actually, it seems to be the 'FreeAttach link' function that is creating the cubes, the straight up freeattach doesn't and I'm not 100% sure that the link function creates the cubes.

Indeed, it will be the FreeAttach function that creates the cubes from what I remember from the development of ActiveStruts. Are you using this function in-editor or in-flight?

If it's the former then it's likely that "EnableFreeAttach" in Kerbal Space Program\GameData\CIT\ActiveStruts\Plugins\ActiveStruts.cfg is set to True, and you should probably change it back to False.

-------------------------------------------------------

Actually, what kind of joint are you using? The talk able ActiveStruts reminded me that it had a discussion about 2 types of joints. One was typical and weak, and the other was stupidly strong. (I believe the words were along the lines of "the universe will break before these do.") I'm guess you're using the latter, seeing as the hinges don't break apart, correct? I'm starting to find Unity to be quite lacking in some features...

I believe we're using Configurable joints which is the former, as that gives us the ability to change the angle of the joint dynamically. I could be wrong on this though, as I don't really deal with that stuff. I just provide the pretties :P

P.S. Are you ever going to update your sig to reference the new plugin rework as well?

After a few more iterations the plugin rework will be moved back over to the main Infernal Robotics release thread, so there's not much point me changing my sig

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smjjames

smjjames

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Indeed, it will be the FreeAttach function that creates the cubes from what I remember from the development of ActiveStruts. Are you using this function in-editor or in-flight?

If it's the former then it's likely that "EnableFreeAttach" in Kerbal Space Program\GameData\CIT\ActiveStruts\Plugins\ActiveStruts.cfg is set to True, and you should probably change it back to False.

I'm using the function in-flight.

Edit: This is odd, it's ALREADY set to false. I'm going to set it to true and see what happens.

Edited by smjjames
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ZodiusInfuser

ZodiusInfuser

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I'm using the function in-flight.

Edit: This is odd, it's ALREADY set to false. I'm going to set it to true and see what happens.

I've just done a test and if you enable it then you can do free-attach in editor, which WILL leave cubes behind. I suspect the flag was meant to disable the function entirely but only does the editor half. Unfortunately not much I can do until the mod is actively being worked on again.

For now just enjoy all the other parts the Model Rework has to offer. Would love to see screenshots of peoples creations, especially with the new wheels! :D

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ZodiusInfuser

ZodiusInfuser

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Do you have a Robotics Parts tab underneath the Science one in the editor, like so?

_2e3f93959e344da1bc9132884c393428

If not then you'll need to install the latest version of the Infernal Robotics Plugin Rework too: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/114014-WIP-MSI-s-Infernal-Robotics-Plugin-Rework-%28Updated-05-04-2015%29

I do mention it in the OP and on KerbalStuff, but maybe its not obvious enough?

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Yemo

Yemo

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Do you have a Robotics Parts tab underneath the Science one in the editor, like so?

https://www.cubbyusercontent.com/pl/IR_NewPartsMenu.png/_2e3f93959e344da1bc9132884c393428

If not then you'll need to install the latest version of the Infernal Robotics Plugin Rework too: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/114014-WIP-MSI-s-Infernal-Robotics-Plugin-Rework-%28Updated-05-04-2015%29

I do mention it in the OP and on KerbalStuff, but maybe its not obvious enough?

Judging from my experience with mod releases, such warnings have to be as close to the download button as possible and best in a signal color like red or so ;-)

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Ziw

Ziw

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Okay so I installed the plugin rework, too, but it does show the 'stock' parts in the special tab; and still doesn't show your reworked parts, I don't really don't know what to do now.

Can you please post your output_log.txt and a screenshot of your MagicSmoceInsustries folder contents all expaned. Something seems wrong with your install.

Alternatively you might try making clean install of Infernal Robotics pre-release and then installing Zodius's parts

Edited by Ziw
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ZodiusInfuser

ZodiusInfuser

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Can you please post your output_log.txt and a screenshot of your MagicSmoceInsustries folder contents all expaned. Something seems wrong with your install.

Alternatively you might try making clean install of Infernal Robotics pre-release and then installing Zodius's parts

Adding to that, as a last resort you could always go into the .cfg of each robotics part and change their category from none to Utility. This will add them to the utilities tab but the result will be messy (the parts will be mixed between all of the others rather than together in a group). The relevant files to do this are located in sub-folders in:

  • Kerbal Space Program\GameData\MagicSmokeIndustries\Parts\Rework_Core\Probe\Robotic
  • Kerbal Space Program\GameData\MagicSmokeIndustries\Parts\Rework_Expansion\Probe\Robotic
  • Kerbal Space Program\GameData\MagicSmokeIndustries\Parts\Rework_Utility\Probe\Wheels

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ZodiusInfuser

ZodiusInfuser

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That installation looks correct to me. The output log can be found under: \Kerbal Space Program\KSP_Data

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Master Tao

Master Tao

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@DeepSlayLP:

The location and name of the log depends on your platform. Please read the [thread=92229]How to Get Support[/thread] sticky in the Support (modded installs) forum to find it.

The log is overwritten every time you launch the game, so cause the problem, quit, and then upload a copy of the file.

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Ziw

Ziw

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On Mac it is called KSP.log and is beside the KSP application

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MoridinUK

MoridinUK

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Hi there,

I'e been told this is the place to ask for help with the old activestruts mod? If so can anyone point out my errors with this below:

When I place the autostrut parts on the ship in the VAB I get no options for grouping them. I hover over them and get nothing, left click removes them, right and middle click bring up nothing... :( What am I missing. I also wanted some of these to hold my payload on to my lifter but I guess I can't do that? They certainly did not link in the VAB or the launch pad either...

screenshot0_1.png

That would be awesome thanks!

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Master Tao

Master Tao

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@Ziw:

The output_log.txt/Player.log and KSP.log are different. Much of the information is the same, but they're both present on all platforms.

@MoridinUK:

Please read the [thread=92229]How to Get Support[/thread] sticky and provide your logs.

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