[WIP] MSI's Infernal Robotics - Model Rework (v02 Pre-Release Beta)

[ZodiusInfuser]

Hi there,

I'e been told this is the place to ask for help with the old activestruts mod? If so can anyone point out my errors with this below:

When I place the autostrut parts on the ship in the VAB I get no options for grouping them. I hover over them and get nothing, left click removes them, right and middle click bring up nothing... What am I missing. I also wanted some of these to hold my payload on to my lifter but I guess I can't do that? They certainly did not link in the VAB or the launch pad either...

Hi MordinUK,

This isn't really the place to be asking for help with the ActiveStruts mod unless it relates directly to the variants that are included within the Model Rework. The autostrut doesn't have a rework variant so I have no knowledge of how it works to begin advising you on what the problem is. Sorry. At this time you should treat anything from the ActiveStruts mod that's not in this pack as being abandoned until such time as we are able to pick it up again.

[MoridinUK]

@MoridinUK:

Please read the [thread=92229]How to Get Support[/thread] sticky and provide your logs.

So there is something wrong? Cos I didn't want to bother with uploading everything if it was WAD and I simply misunderstood how it was to work?

- - - Updated - - -

Hi MordinUK,

This isn't really the place to be asking for help with the ActiveStruts mod unless it relates directly to the variants that are included within the Model Rework. The autostrut doesn't have a rework variant so I have no knowledge of how it works to begin advising you on what the problem is. Sorry. At this time you should treat anything from the ActiveStruts mod that's not in this pack as being abandoned until such time as we are able to pick it up again.

Ah I had posted in the old activestruts thread and got redirected here. This rather ruins my craft but I can live with that and use KAS instead. cheers

[smjjames]

Hi MordinUK,

This isn't really the place to be asking for help with the ActiveStruts mod unless it relates directly to the variants that are included within the Model Rework. The autostrut doesn't have a rework variant so I have no knowledge of how it works to begin advising you on what the problem is. Sorry. At this time you should treat anything from the ActiveStruts mod that's not in this pack as being abandoned until such time as we are able to pick it up again.

Actually, I had pointed someone else who was talking about the IR model rework variant over to here, and I guess Mordin thought he was supposed to go over here.

ActiveStruts support is kind of in limbo atm.

Edited April 6, 2015 by smjjames

[MoridinUK]

Actually, I had pointed someone else who was talking about the IR model rework variant over to here, and I guess Mordin thought he was supposed to go over here.

ActiveStruts support is kind of in limbo atm.

I'm never where I'm supposed to be! lol

[ZodiusInfuser]

I'm never where I'm supposed to be! lol

No worries. I guess the main take-home message is, yes IR will be picking up support of the ActiveStruts mod (at least the bits that are applicable to IR), but there is currently no time-frame for this. The version that is included in the Utility Pack is stable enough if you connect it without using free-attach, so it will remain in the download.

For now lets get back to talking about the Model Rework. I've still not seen people playing about with the new wheels yet

[smjjames]

I'm never where I'm supposed to be! lol

Sorry about the confusion, support for ActiveStruts really is in limbo atm.

For now just enjoy all the other parts the Model Rework has to offer. Would love to see screenshots of peoples creations, especially with the new wheels!

While it doesn't have the new wheels (would be nice if there were wheels that connected horizontially), heres a thing that I made to solve the problem of wheels and trusses on a rover sticking out awkwardly at launch. The first three are first in stowed mode and then extended out, fourth is landed and strutted out. The fourth is, I dunno, just sort of scale because I realized how big it actually is, heh. Also, I used the robotrusses for the MKS module because they're actually a bit more compact than the equivalent stock trusses. I used stock wheels because I didn't have room in the containers and I had to use the internal KAS container. Okay, in hindsight, I could have added some more containers to use the IR wheels.

I did screw around with the IR wheels for this craft, but they weren't what I was looking for.

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Also, the suspension on those large hauler wheels REALLY needs some kind of control because while they're a good size for the above craft, they're WAY too springy and are really difficult to control because of that.

Edited April 6, 2015 by smjjames

[smjjames]

I decided to see how the hauler wheels hold up to carrying something MASSIVE, massive here being in excess of 7k tons and they broke the moment the craft was loaded. Also, I found a bug, even when broken, they still work as far as acceleration and steering goes, but the suspension is broken.

Edit: The servomotor still works, apparently.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

No worries. I guess the main take-home message is, yes IR will be picking up support of the ActiveStruts mod (at least the bits that are applicable to IR), but there is currently no time-frame for this. The version that is included in the Utility Pack is stable enough if you connect it without using free-attach, so it will remain in the download.

For now lets get back to talking about the Model Rework. I've still not seen people playing about with the new wheels yet

Sorry if I'm just dense and missed it somewhere, but I was wondering - let's say you make a craft that's basically round and you want to attach 4 or 6 wheels to it radially, like in the following picture (seen from the top or bottom, either way). Imagine an MKS module or something that you drop onto a planet, I guess. The red lines in the left-hand diagram represent the directions (I think, right?) the wheels would face when placed with radial symmetry.

Is there an easy way, or - since they rotate through the magic of IR - is there some neat command that would make all the wheels line up and face the same way, like on the right in the picture? And then you could just rotate like normal with IR and have the thing translate really easily. Might be a neat feature for the wheels if it's not in there already and I just missed it.

Also, though it's unrelated to the wheels, a really handy part (for me, anyway) for the rework pack might be an angled piece for the rework trusses (a short bit of truss bent at 15 or 45 or something degrees) and/or a hub for them too, though it is certainly possible to use the stock node thing if you scale it up.

Edited April 7, 2015 by AccidentalDisassembly

[Gaalidas]

Looks like a similar issue that we have yet to solve in the Kerbal Foundries mod for making crawler steering.

[ZodiusInfuser]

Also, the suspension on those large hauler wheels REALLY needs some kind of control because while they're a good size for the above craft, they're WAY too springy and are really difficult to control because of that.

I decided to see how the hauler wheels hold up to carrying something MASSIVE, massive here being in excess of 7k tons and they broke the moment the craft was loaded. Also, I found a bug, even when broken, they still work as far as acceleration and steering goes, but the suspension is broken.

Edit: The servomotor still works, apparently.

Thanks for letting me know about these. I have a few options in Unity to adjust the strength of the suspension of wheels, but that's it. I may consider switching from the stock module for this to the Kerbal Foundries mod as that would let the suspension be user-adjustable to cater to your payload and intended ride-height.

As for the breaking, I suspect my break thresholds are too low. Do you happen to know what mod those other parts are from and could you possibly send me a craft file? The moving despite being broken is because there's no damaged model of the wheel yet (I honestly don't know how I'd model such a thing).

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Sorry if I'm just dense and missed it somewhere, but I was wondering - let's say you make a craft that's basically round and you want to attach 4 or 6 wheels to it radially, like in the following picture (seen from the top or bottom, either way). Imagine an MKS module or something that you drop onto a planet, I guess. The red lines in the left-hand diagram represent the directions (I think, right?) the wheels would face when placed with radial symmetry.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/crappyIRwheelsexample.png

Is there an easy way, or - since they rotate through the magic of IR - is there some neat command that would make all the wheels line up and face the same way, like on the right in the picture? And then you could just rotate like normal with IR and have the thing translate really easily. Might be a neat feature for the wheels if it's not in there already and I just missed it.

This is entirely possible with IR. There's no single command, but by using the presets system you can get the wheels facing forward in no time. Using that example, set each wheel to have -60, 0 and +60 as their presets. Then do either of these two things:

1. Have your wheels all in one group and expand it in the Servo Control window. Switch to Preset Mode, and use the individual next/prev preset buttons to turn your wheels to the correct orientation.
   
2. Have all your wheels in one group as before. Lock the two wheels that shouldn't turn. Invert axis on two of the wheels that should. Use the group next/prev buttons to turn all the wheels at once. Then unlock your wheels and turn off invert axis.
   

In both of these cases you end up with your drawing on the right, and can then use the normal group move arrows to have all of the wheels turn in the same direction. Here's an image of the second method in action:

There'll also be an even better way to do this in the future too, by redefining what angle the Center command returns the part to. This would allow you to get that arrangement by just pressing the Move to Center button, which currently would put the craft back into the arrangement in your lefthand drawing.

Also, though it's unrelated to the wheels, a really handy part (for me, anyway) for the rework pack might be an angled piece for the rework trusses (a short bit of truss bent at 15 or 45 or something degrees) and/or a hub for them too, though it is certainly possible to use the stock node thing if you scale it up.

Could you add a comment onto this github entry about structural parts so I remember to look at the idea when I revisit those parts? https://github.com/MagicSmokeIndustries/IR-ModelRework/issues/6

[smjjames]

Thanks for letting me know about these. I have a few options in Unity to adjust the strength of the suspension of wheels, but that's it. I may consider switching from the stock module for this to the Kerbal Foundries mod as that would let the suspension be user-adjustable to cater to your payload and intended ride-height.

As for the breaking, I suspect my break thresholds are too low. Do you happen to know what mod those other parts are from and could you possibly send me a craft file? The moving despite being broken is because there's no damaged model of the wheel yet (I honestly don't know how I'd model such a thing).

Switching to the Kerbal Foundries mod method will probably be enough to fix it since wheels under massive amounts of weight don't break (well, the tracks don't), they just struggle to carry the load. Also, I should have mentioned that the test craft was fully loaded with ore and substrate.

The mod the containers are from is RoverDudes FTT (Frieght Transport Technologies), the craft itself also has B9 struts and the big SAS from there. I'm also using vens stock revamp, so the probe core may be from there.

I've since changed them to LFO since I was just screwing around. The one using LFO is a bit over 2k tons when full and is 89 tons empty.

As for the damaged model of the wheel, the suspension completely failing/collapsed and the wheel not moving seemed like a pretty good indicator of it being broken to me.

Craft file: http://sta.sh/0l3xzteqa7i It goes in the SPH, but it doesn't really matter I guess.

[Mekan1k]

ZodiacInfuser, how did you get the struts to move with the ship in that video?

[Darren9]

ZodiacInfuser, how did you get the struts to move with the ship in that video?

It was a Grappler and a Target, I set the "Toggle Link" to an action group on the Grappler. Once you've connected a Grappler to a Target it always re-links to the same one, so turn it off, move the joints then turn it back on with the action group.

Edit - that's if you mean the vid on the first page

Edited April 7, 2015 by Darren9

[DeepSlayLP]

Okay so now everything works fine except for sometimes the parts stop and after one or two seconds they function again.

[ZodiusInfuser]

Okay so now everything works fine except for sometimes the parts stop and after one or two seconds they function again.

My immediate thought is do you have enough power on your craft? The largest size of parts consume a considerable amount of electric charge, and if there's not enough they'll stop moving until more becomes available.

[DeepSlayLP]

Yes think so too. But thank you for the help.

[smjjames]

Is it a known bug that when you place some of the robotrusses, roboathlete trusses, and pipes singly with mirror symmetry, other things don't quite symmetry properly when you try to use mirror symmetry when you place stuff on those parts?

[ZodiusInfuser]

Is it a known bug that when you place some of the robotrusses, roboathlete trusses, and pipes singly with mirror symmetry, other things don't quite symmetry properly when you try to use mirror symmetry when you place stuff on those parts?

I think I know what you're describing and from what I've experienced that's a KSP bug that also occurs on stock trusses sometimes. Usually you have to disable symmetry and enable it again. Do you have pictures?

Edit: Or its just the way the geometry is designed. KSP doesn't actually mirror any parts, but instead rotates them 180 degrees. I didn't know this before I created that set.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ZodiusInfuser

[smjjames]

I think I know what you're describing and from what I've experienced that's a KSP bug that also occurs on stock trusses sometimes. Usually you have to disable symmetry and enable it again. Do you have pictures?

Edit: Or its just the way the geometry is designed. KSP doesn't actually mirror any parts, but instead rotates them 180 degrees. I didn't know this before I created that set.

Yeah I have screenshots.

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[ZodiusInfuser]

Yeah I have screenshots.

http://imgur.com/a/iusUB

It looks to me that you're trying to put a part onto the trusses in symmetry mode when you don't have the truss in symmetry. Usually KSP should realise this and disable symmetry but sometimes it doesn't. Basically I'm blaming KSP for this , as my structural parts are just that, structural, no fancy plugin driving them to produce this behaviour.

[smjjames]

Oh it's a KSP thing, okay then.

[ZodiusInfuser]

Quick question, would anyone be interested in helping me come up with descriptions for all of my robotics parts? I believe the structural parts have them, but everything else says WIP. I'd like to do more than just describe the function of the parts, but instead add the kind of quirks you see on stock part descriptions.

Also, I still have these questions without responces:

• Should I re-introduce the open Basic and Flat hinge variants? They were removed because its easy to recreate them using the new editor features, however when you grab them to place them somewhere else their angle gets reset. Some players have said this gets quite annoying, and I don't think there's a plugin solution on the horison any time soon.
  
• It's been pointed out to me that the mass of robotic parts greatly affects the strength of their connections. As such, for the next update I'd like to do a complete re-balance of all the part masses in this pack, but I could really use community advice on how to change things. If anyone could play around and offer suggestions of what to change it would be greatly appreciated.
  

Thanks

[smjjames]

The 'angle resetting when you move them elsewhere' problem also happens with the pivot joints and probably affects all robotics parts.

As for the mass stuff, I find that the pivot joints seem a whole lot sturdier than the hinges, but I'm not sure if that is mass related or model related. I barely know anything about how to mod in KSP, so, I don't have any ideas here.

[StahnAileron]

I might be willing to help out with the part descriptions if I have the time.

Just a question: I brought up using FireSpitter's MeshSwitching functionality earlier. I know you had no interest in the thought I had at the time (2 completely different sets of parts for different uses), but would it be possible to use the mesh switch to control how a part is oriented for mounting (normal versus reverse mounting)? I'm looking at some parts and comparing normal and reverse mount versions. They look essentially identical save for the lights used to tell us the type of mounting. I don't know how the plug-in works, so I have no clue if this would be even possible. I just know several big mods using FSMeshSwitch to cut down on part count via tweakables.

[pellinor]

It's been pointed out to me that the mass of robotic parts greatly affects the strength of their connections. As such, for the next update I'd like to do a complete re-balance of all the part masses in this pack, but I could really use community advice on how to change things.

This sounds like a workaround to something that we haven't even tried to fix in the first place. So if you have a part that would need an unreasonable mass to allow good connections I'll find some time to look at how these connections can be tweaked.